What's up with constant weapon swapping?

[Vayne.8563]

39 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

 

I'll also add that there's a plethora of programs out there that can also function as replacements for a mouse or keyboard and, with enough tinkering and set up, are just as, if not better than either.  I know this because my mother has those same problems you listed and I've set up a few things to help her browse the internet like she used to.
 

  

This is a good post.

To make what you said shorter; there's a way to do it,  you just have to build around that limitation and accept that playing with only one weapon type is bound to make certain fights more difficult.

The thing is I'm doing fine with the system I've c;reated for myself. You haven't played with me, you haven't seen me play. I don't sit there and join speed run groups or even pug.  So I'm not sure why you think there's an issue.  I'm doing more damage than the average player but not nearly as much as the top players.  The raiders in my guild have no trouble playing with me.  

It's not that I never swap weapons, it's only that I often don't swap weapons. I do what I can when I can. I'm not sure why you've made this into an issue, because it's certainly not an issue for me.  Me and the people I play with are fine.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

45 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I'm not sure why you've made this into an issue, because it's certainly not an issue for me.  Me and the people I play with are fine.

I, legit, have no idea why you're confused about this. You brought up your disability and health of your own accord as if that has any bearing or weight on  the overall discussion of weapon swapping being part of the game.

[Vayne.8563]

32 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

I, legit, have no idea why you're confused about this. You brought up your disability and health of your own accord as if that has any bearing or weight on  the overall discussion of weapon swapping being part of the game.

 

32 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

I, legit, have no idea why you're confused about this. You brought up your disability and health of your own accord as if that has any bearing or weight on  the overall discussion of weapon swapping being part of the game.

Last post I'm making to you.  The vast majority of players probably play this game without swapping weapons. No one is saying swapping weapons isn't superior. I am saying a lot of people don't do it and for the content they need don't need to do it. It has nothing to do with anything else. My circumstance is one specific circumstance. The more buttons I hit the less I can play period end stop. I hit extra buttons during fights I have to stop an hour or two earlier.  You keep replying to me.

 

The vast majority of people would be better off weapon swapping but the OP probably doesn't like it. Therefore, he doesn't like it he doesn't have to do it. You don't pay for anyone's game and thus can't tell them how to play.  It really is that simple. There's a difference between encouraging people to play the way you think they should and saying they have to.  And that's all I've really been saying.

If you are doing high level content your need to swap weapons becomes higher, but it isn't NECESSARY for most content in this game. You can complete content without doing it if you don't like it for some reason. That doesn't mean you wouldn't be better off swapping  it just means you don't have to. It's the old difference between optimal and viable. People confuse those things all the time.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

 

Last post I'm making to you.  The vast majority of players probably play this game without swapping weapons. No one is saying swapping weapons isn't superior. I am saying a lot of people don't do it and for the content they need don't need to do it. It has nothing to do with anything else. My circumstance is one specific circumstance. The more buttons I hit the less I can play period end stop. I hit extra buttons during fights I have to stop an hour or two earlier.  You keep replying to me.

Doubt this, but with no stats, we can only guess, so none of this.  Your problem has nothing to do with others, but has everything to do with you.

 

Quote

You don't pay for anyone's game and thus can't tell them how to play.  It really is that simple. There's a difference between encouraging people to play the way you think they should and saying they have to.  And that's all I've really been saying.

They also didn't pay for my or anyone else's game, therefore, they don't get to barge in with the "play how I want" crap in parties and expect to be welcomed into every group, but that's also not the problem and I wasn't ever trying to force them to weapon swap.  My statements, for clarification were always to encourage use of weapon swap to provide buffs, boons, and such to those around you.  And I, along with many others, gave clear examples of how it works.  Someone else even came in and posted builds and advice on how to build around just one weapon.  You came in here, told everyone you didn't weapon swap, then put up a disability, then kept going as you usually do.

 

Quote

If you are doing high level content your need to swap weapons becomes higher, but it isn't NECESSARY for most content in this game. You can complete content without doing it if you don't like it for some reason. That doesn't mean you wouldn't be better off swapping  it just means you don't have to. It's the old difference between optimal and viable. People confuse those things all the time.

Even still, in raids, fractals, etc. There's builds where you don't have to weapon swap if by 'weapon swap' you mean swap to a different weapon set.  Almost all builds do weapon swap even if they use the same weapons (EG, Scepter/torch scourge, staff DD, staff mirage, etc) to proc trait and/or sigil effects.

[ArchonWing.9480]

34 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You came in here, told everyone you didn't weapon swap, then put up a disability, then kept going as you usually do.

 

Vayne never said they never weapon swap.  They said:

  

On 12/11/2021 at 1:21 PM, Vayne.8563 said:

I never feel forced to swap weapons at a certain point in my rotation.

and

  

On 12/12/2021 at 1:48 PM, Vayne.8563 said:

Yes, for those people who consistently raid or do T4 CMs it's more important to swap weapons (and I'm not saying I never do).

So I don't really get the problem here. Unlike the OP, it's not like they are against swapping weapons and even admit it's better. They're not trying to change the game either. If their disability makes them feel uncomfortable, then that's just how it is. You can choose to not play with Vayne. I don't think it's a good reason to, but both of you own your own copy of the game and can decide. But I'm not going to hurt myself just to get higher dps.

 

 

Also I'd bring forth the point that it is possible swapping at the wrong time can lower DPS especially with weapons that have strong 2-3 skills and bad autoattacks. Now obviously you should really practice your rotation, but if people would rather not take the risk of these mistakes, I find it perfectly acceptable as long as it's not a huge sacrifice. Now we would like people to play their best but again, *shrugs*

Edited December 14, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Vayne.8563]

49 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Vayne never said they never weapon swap.  They said:

  

and

  

So I don't really get the problem here. Unlike the OP, it's not like they are against swapping weapons and even admit it's better. They're not trying to change the game either. If their disability makes them feel uncomfortable, then that's just how it is. You can choose to not play with Vayne. I don't think it's a good reason to, but both of you own your own copy of the game and can decide. But I'm not going to hurt myself just to get higher dps.

 

 

Also I'd bring forth the point that it is possible swapping at the wrong time can lower DPS especially with weapons that have strong 2-3 skills and bad autoattacks. Now obviously you should really practice your rotation, but if people would rather not take the risk of these mistakes, I find it perfectly acceptable as long as it's not a huge sacrifice. Now we would like people to play their best but again, *shrugs*

I wouldn't waste too much time, the guy has ignored everything I've said since the beginning.  You're right I never told anyone not to weapon swap. I did say weapon swapping was superior, I simply brought up my own personal experience. It seems this guy knows my personal experience better than I do, and wants to argue with me, which is why I stopped replying.   Sometimes, even I have to give up trying to get my point across. If he hasn't gotten it yet, he's not going to and that's fine. I'm 100% sure I'll never be in a group with this guy so my gameplay will never directly affect him.

[AquaBR.9250]

On 12/7/2021 at 7:07 PM, Macabre.3829 said:

A friend got me into the game, we got to lvl 80 and started doing some more serious content, but I've noticed that both my Dragonhunter and Deadeye need to weapon swap. Dragon hunter way more so.

 

I made a character to play 2h only and another one to play ranged only .Why is the game forcing me into playstyles that I do not want to play?
This is just annoying. You guys really think it's a good idea?

Quick answer: Bad game design

Long answer: GW2 have a bunch of builds and professions that have tons, and i say TONS of buttons to press, like firebrand and scourge with lots of skills that don't have casting time, including the tomes where you are punished if you waste a page instead of having reduced cooldown if you do. 

 

With the meta of stand still stack rotation and how healer is broken in this game you just need to press all skills off cooldown, IF you play the game the old way you need survivability skills, and you need to use them in the right moment, in old content without healer and stacking, melee range is actually dangerous so if you are a ranged boy you can easily die by swapping and going melee just for dps if you don't have a build for that, and forget about getting some change, they won't nerf healing that would be good for PvE in general but that will upset a lot of people so they won't do it

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, AquaBR.9250 said:

Quick answer: Bad game design

I'm sure this is rehashed somewhere but ... this is JUST misinformation.

Firstly, the premise that the OP has that swapping is NEEDED is just wrong. It's not needed.

Second, it's not 'bad game design' that results in player's deciding to swap a weapon or not. That's actually absurd if you think about it because the reasons to swap (or not) likely depend on a player wanting to access skills on the other weapon ... a completely LEGIT game mechanic. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

3 hours ago, AquaBR.9250 said:

Quick answer: Bad game design

Long answer: GW2 have a bunch of builds and professions that have tons, and i say TONS of buttons to press, like firebrand and scourge with lots of skills that don't have casting time, including the tomes where you are punished if you waste a page instead of having reduced cooldown if you do. 

 

With the meta of stand still stack rotation and how healer is broken in this game you just need to press all skills off cooldown, IF you play the game the old way you need survivability skills, and you need to use them in the right moment, in old content without healer and stacking, melee range is actually dangerous so if you are a ranged boy you can easily die by swapping and going melee just for dps if you don't have a build for that, and forget about getting some change, they won't nerf healing that would be good for PvE in general but that will upset a lot of people so they won't do it

People didn't stack in dungeons.... lol. Yea stacking has been a thing since 2012 long before healers came along.

Also, again Firebrand is a terrible example for needing to weapon swap. They have a lot of utilities with no cast time, but not weapon skills. (That'd be nice though). The only thing that weapon swap matters for is symbol uptime and some occasional utility that doesn't require swapping off cooldown.

Edited December 21, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[AquaBR.9250]

1 hour ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

People didn't stack in dungeons.... lol. Yea stacking has been a thing since 2012 long before healers came along.

Also, again Firebrand is a terrible example for needing to weapon swap. They have a lot of utilities with no cast time, but not weapon skills. (That'd be nice though). The only thing that weapon swap matters for is symbol uptime and some occasional utility that doesn't require swapping off cooldown.

Was not an example for weapon swap is an example for profession with lots of button to press, firebrand have more weapon skill than ele, with weapon swapping and tomes it have a total of 25 skills while also having mantras that are a ammo type of skill, for a person like me with tendinitis i can't play the thing is literally PAINFUL to play healbrand.

 

I never said ppl did not stack in dungeons i played the guard/war stacking meta in dungeon, i said if you don't stack the game is completelly different.

 

Stop being toxic and putting words in other mouth, thats stupid, what is your problem people??

[AquaBR.9250]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm sure this is rehashed somewhere but ... this is JUST misinformation.

Firstly, the premise that the OP has that swapping is NEEDED is just wrong. It's not needed.

Second, it's not 'bad game design' that results in player's deciding to swap a weapon or not. That's actually absurd if you think about it because the reasons to swap (or not) likely depend on a player wanting to access skills on the other weapon ... a completely LEGIT game mechanic. 

Weapon swapping is supposed to be for people to have versatily, i remember the youtuber that made me start GW2 playing GS/rifle war and switching to rifle when low so she could regain health and go back to melee.

 

And yes in some ROTATIONS you have to swap weapons constantly, thats how most rotations work, thats the most efficient way to play, you don't have to you are right, but you don't have to remain in the raid squad either, they can easily kick you because your dps is garbage because you don't like to weapon swap.

 

IF the best way to play is unfun it is bad design, like Harbringer where you play 95% of time in shroud.

[kharmin.7683]

46 minutes ago, AquaBR.9250 said:

IF the best way to play is unfun it is bad design,

That is a highly subjective point of view.

[Obtena.7952]

20 hours ago, AquaBR.9250 said:

And yes in some ROTATIONS you have to swap weapons constantly

Just because some rotations for optimal play need swapping does not mean swapping is needed to play the game because it's not a requirement to play optimally with rotations in the first place. If you have to redefine what the word need means to make your point ... it's not a very good point then is it.

Misinformation about how the game works, especially to push a meta agenda that people need to play rotations that might have swaps simply doesn't stand here. Maybe you can't play without swapping because of choices you made with how and who you play the game with ... that's not the reality of how many other people play the game though.   

There isn't anything 'bad game design' about having weapon swaps either. That's nonsensical.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[ArchonWing.9480]

7 hours ago, AquaBR.9250 said:

Was not an example for weapon swap is an example for profession with lots of button to press, firebrand have more weapon skill than ele, with weapon swapping and tomes it have a total of 25 skills while also having mantras that are a ammo type of skill, for a person like me with tendinitis i can't play the thing is literally PAINFUL to play healbrand.

I mean, that's just completely false. It is nowhere near as many button presses as compared to ele. You aren't supposed to use the tomes off cooldown especially for healbrand so just because there are 25 skills doesn't mean anything especially when 2 of the tomes are on long cooldowns.

But the real question is what does that have to do with this topic at all, besides ranting about a build you don't like playing?

7 hours ago, AquaBR.9250 said:

I never said ppl did not stack in dungeons i played the guard/war stacking meta in dungeon, i said if you don't stack the game is completelly different.

I mean that's true regardless of "new" or "old", but whatever. It's not like this has anything to do with anything either.

Edited December 22, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Teratus.2859]

You don't "have" to weapon swap, it's just more efficient to use it.
If you want to stick with a single weapon you can.

Weapon swapping is a good part of this game if you ask me, it allows you to adapt to various situations, like a melee character swapping to range and backing off to heal without having to give up on dealing damage.

In Path of Fire, bounty enemies can even have a mechanic that requires this very playstyle.
If you have no range weapon or skills in your build you are literally unable to deal damage to it constantly.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Teratus.2859

[Ellye.9123]

13 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Weapon swapping is a good part of this game if you ask me, it allows you to adapt to various situations, like a melee character swapping to range and backing off to heal without having to give up on dealing damage.

If weapon swapping worked like this, it would be excellent.

In truth, that is an illusion. You're often losing in damage and in durability by playing like that.

Instead you should just swap as soon as the cooldowns are on, no matter the range, and spam all your damaging skills before swapping again, no matter the range.

 

I enjoyed the premise of weapon swapping until I started seeing through this illusion and I can't unsee it anymore. I can come up with concepts for how weapon swapping could be fun (like the one you mentioned, or swapping to more defensive weapons when needed, etc), but I can't ignore the fact that all of those concepts don't work as well as simply pressing all the buttons all the time mindlessly.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Ellye.9123

[AliamRationem.5172]

22 minutes ago, Ellye.9123 said:

If weapon swapping worked like this, it would be excellent.

In truth, that is an illusion. You're often losing in damage and in durability by playing like that.

Instead you should just swap as soon as the cooldowns are on, no matter the range, and spam all your damaging skills before swapping again, no matter the range.

 

I enjoyed the premise of weapon swapping until I started seeing through this illusion and I can't unsee it anymore. I can come up with concepts for how weapon swapping could be fun (like the one you mentioned, or swapping to more defensive weapons when needed, etc), but I can't ignore the fact that all of those concepts don't work as well as simply pressing all the buttons all the time mindlessly.

In group PvE only.  In everything else that is not the case.  This is an issue with the non-trinity design and simple UI forcing stack-in-a-pile gameplay.  No tanks to control boss movement. Healers exist, but can't target for heals.  So everybody stacks up.

Now your ranged weapons are melee and why use fun mechanics like dodge when support roles just cover you in stability and aegis so you can roll face?

Basically, everything that works great and makes GW2 combat feel a cut above most other MMOs is thrown in the garbage in group PvE.  Fix that and you actually have a reason to swap for utility.

Or try a different game mode. Literally any other game mode at all. Weapon swaps are not used this way.

[Obtena.7952]

18 hours ago, Ellye.9123 said:

If weapon swapping worked like this, it would be excellent.

In truth, that is an illusion. You're often losing in damage and in durability by playing like that.

 

That's just weird ... it does work like that, at least in some parts of the game. Yes, you lose some things if you don't stack ... but you wouldn't go ranged and lose those things if there wasn't a reason to do it in the first place. That's what actually makes weapon swapping meaningful ... because it's not done by default. You do it because there is a reason to, even if it means it costs you something.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Yumenei.7943]

I've been playing GW2 practically since the release and I remember having similar feeling as OP when I realized for the first time that I need to keep swapping weapons in order to deal maximum damage possible and stay competitive.

 

Now, many years later, I'm used to it. I'm sure many will disagree with me but what I dislike to this day about weapon swap is the fact that it has become a part of mindless DPS rotation for many classes. Almost no depth to it. There's the initial difficulty of learning the proper rotation and then it's just mindless piano playing while trying to navigate boss mechanics at the same time. You can add third and fourth weapon set into the rotation and there won't be any more depth to it. I believe the gameplay would be better off if vast majority of our damage came from one weapon set and the other would be our utility swap (for example distance fighting, some utility skills, blocks etc.).

 

And this is how it also works in PvP for most classes and it's why I enjoy playing thie game mode more - you bring down a foe with a hammer, and then hundred blades him into pieces as a warrior. Or you move around the map quickly with a short bow, but then swap to dagger/pistol when in combat as a thief. It makes fights more interesting and I would love to see PvE instanced combat being something more than just hitting DPS threshold and out-healing/shielding incoming damage. It certainly would make GW2 more unique when compared to other MMOs.

[Teratus.2859]

13 hours ago, Ellye.9123 said:

If weapon swapping worked like this, it would be excellent.

In truth, that is an illusion. You're often losing in damage and in durability by playing like that.

Instead you should just swap as soon as the cooldowns are on, no matter the range, and spam all your damaging skills before swapping again, no matter the range.

 

I enjoyed the premise of weapon swapping until I started seeing through this illusion and I can't unsee it anymore. I can come up with concepts for how weapon swapping could be fun (like the one you mentioned, or swapping to more defensive weapons when needed, etc), but I can't ignore the fact that all of those concepts don't work as well as simply pressing all the buttons all the time mindlessly.

I would blame that far more on certain attitudes in the player community to be honest.
A lot of players in the game have way to much of a stubborn attitude towards DPS and some of them get very toxic about it when their personal preferences are not being met by others.

Truth is everything you do in game that isn't skill spamming is costing you DPS and a lot of the time you're going to be healing, reviving, dodging etc so ultimately it just doesn't matter that much unless you're a die hard speed runner or something.

DPS maybe the fastest and more efficient way to kill things in gw2 but the vast majority of players are casuals who simply don't care about hitting the biggest numbers possible.
They enjoy the game far more by playing inefficiently with builds they enjoy and by playing into mechanics like that to help them survive.

There are so many ways to build in this game, for DPS, for Support, for Survival.. sometimes it's just good old fun to theme a build around a certain mechanic or style and make the most out of it.
For example I have a glass canon Thief build designed to regenerate health from pretty much every action it takes in combat, a true Rogue scrapper kinda build.
Lands a crit, I heal.
Dodges an attack, I heal.
Uses Initiative, I heal.
It heals by a lot as well, capable of replenishing it's entire health bar in seconds just by playing well.
It's not an easy build to use and it's certainly not going to win any top DPS charts but it's a hell of a lot of fun to play and solo stuff with.

It doesn't always have to be about DPS and a lot of people arguably have way more fun by not playing to DPS metas etc.
I can certainly say for myself that I do not enjoy speed running or trying to hit uber high DPS constantly.. it's boring, repetitive and ultimately feels irrelevant when builds I enjoy significantly more can still beat everything in the game, just a tad slower.