A "don't waypoint when dead" fee?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

Well, no, I can't agree that punishing people for not waypointing is a good way to encourage people to learn the mechanics. People don't waypoint for all sorts of reasons. I think it's a lot easier for a tiny fraction of us to take a little more time explaining what needs to happen (and why) before people die, rather than spending the exact same amount of time afterward telling folks to WP (and why).

The intent of the notification would be to reduce the number of folks who fail to rally. It's too late to notify the dead of anything all that useful for a successful event.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@"Cuon Alpinus.7645" said:This poll is even worse than the last one with its bias toward punishment. The "should need" or "should not need" doesn't imply PUNISHMENT for using the game's mechanics, just being courteous to your fellow players. This is making it far too black and white, even if you do have an 'indifference' option based on scaling.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT.

The fact that the NOT SO SECRET motivator for several people here is pure petty punishment and nothing to do with game mechanics or its flaws.

Holy cow.

This whole poll wasn't made because I though we needed yet another thread on a ridiculous topic. I made it to shoehorn people into being more genuine about their positions. Amd even then they aren't!

Say what you want, but

I

can at least say what I mean without being a coward about it.

Or, could it be that you are projecting motivations onto other people that don't exist, rather than actually listening to what they say?

Not at all. Your thread was full of motivations. Maybe not you per se, but you are being disingenuous if you tell me that everyone in your thread was only looking out for the evils of upscaling.

I came into this "debate", as I always do, an amblivient party with no horse in the race. Read some comments I found to be veiled pettiness and now emerge as someone, who out of spite, will now back all non-waypointers and afk leeches.

I will support the side that is less drama. Even if I disagree with them.

I've said this across 3 threads; the majority of people in your original thread don't want to fix upscaling, they want to punish.

2 other users have you several options. EVERYONE BUT ME IGNORED THEM.And when I brought it to your attention...

"Ubbhh hubbub bu-by but it's not the same"

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@"Cuon Alpinus.7645" said:This poll is even worse than the last one with its bias toward punishment. The "should need" or "should not need" doesn't imply PUNISHMENT for using the game's mechanics, just being courteous to your fellow players. This is making it far too black and white, even if you do have an 'indifference' option based on scaling.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT.

The fact that the NOT SO SECRET motivator for several people here is pure petty punishment and nothing to do with game mechanics or its flaws.

Holy cow.

This whole poll wasn't made because I though we needed yet another thread on a ridiculous topic. I made it to shoehorn people into being more genuine about their positions. Amd even then they aren't!

Say what you want, but

I

can at least say what I mean without being a coward about it.

Or, could it be that you are projecting motivations onto other people that don't exist, rather than actually listening to what they say?

I think the general problem is people are conflating and reading into things WAY more than they need to. Seriously, they just need to pick the choice they like or don't pick at all. It isn't like we can edit the poll anyways.

The poll was my diplomatic way of forcing a more honest response.

The root of the problem is that some people just get so riled up by afk dead that it impacts them on an emotional level.

Like who cares.

If Jimmy wants to leech off an event I am doing with 100000% success rate. Cool.

I was going to win anyway. What do I care if a slacker is along for the ride. I lost nothing.

This is just pure pettiness.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@danizmax.4329 said:

Players should be punished for not using WP out after deathI chose this one, just because I see way too many slackers...

Players should not be punished for not using WP out after deathFine, but then they should be disqualified from the last active event after 30 seconds or so.

Indifferent; Anet should remove dead player scalingIn that case lazy ppl would have an extra excuse not to take the effort to run back, is would be the worst solution IMHO.

Normally I would agree on the whole. But what if someone who did golemmk2 for 7 min and had to check on something for 30 seconds. Why does that invalidate the effort put in?

And what about noobs?

All effort has value to me. And none of us will ever know who is straight up not putting effort in.

Slippery slopery

[DarcShriek.5829]

How many threads do we need on this subject? C'mon mods, do your job and clean this mess up.

[danizmax.4329]

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:The intent of the notification would be to reduce the number of folks who fail to rally. It's too late to notify the dead of anything all that useful for a successful event.Where I come from we have a saying: "Donkey doesn't got twice onto the ice". xD

[Zacchary.6183]

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@"Cuon Alpinus.7645" said:This poll is even worse than the last one with its bias toward punishment. The "should need" or "should not need" doesn't imply PUNISHMENT for using the game's mechanics, just being courteous to your fellow players. This is making it far too black and white, even if you do have an 'indifference' option based on scaling.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT.

The fact that the NOT SO SECRET motivator for several people here is pure petty punishment and nothing to do with game mechanics or its flaws.

Holy cow.

This whole poll wasn't made because I though we needed yet another thread on a ridiculous topic. I made it to shoehorn people into being more genuine about their positions. Amd even then they aren't!

Say what you want, but

I

can at least say what I mean without being a coward about it.

Or, could it be that you are projecting motivations onto other people that don't exist, rather than actually listening to what they say?

I think the general problem is people are conflating and reading into things WAY more than they need to. Seriously, they just need to pick the choice they like or don't pick at all. It isn't like we can edit the poll anyways.

The poll was my diplomatic way of forcing a more honest response.

The root of the problem is that some people just get so riled up by afk dead that it impacts them on an emotional level.

Like who cares.

If Jimmy wants to leech off an event I am doing with 100000% success rate. Cool.

I was going to win anyway. What do I care if a slacker is along for the ride. I lost nothing.

This is just pure pettiness.

Of course it's more honest, but all it has shown was what most of us already knew. It doesn't provide anything new to the issue. I already anticipated this before I made my poll.

[danizmax.4329]

@Ohoni.6057 said:I was going to win anyway. What do I care if a slacker is along for the ride. I lost nothing.

This is just pure pettiness.

No its not... if you have lets say 10 dead ppl or those barely doing anything from total of 30 it will take a lot longer to finish a scaled event that completely without them. Had this today in VB at patri, it sux.

Normally I would agree on the whole. But what if someone who did golemmk2 for 7 min and had to check on something for 30 seconds. Why does that invalidate the effort put in?Maybe not stand in deadly stuff? In any case mostly you know what you are going into and know what you can or can't do. Sorry but I don't think that's very nice of you walking away from the computer in the middle of things while other do their work.

And what about noobs?What about them? They get the messege -> read it one time -> run back.

All effort has value to me. And none of us will ever know who is straight up not putting effort in.Oh I know... just by looking whats skills they use, don't even need a dps meter for that...

[Cragga the Eighty Third.60]

If we're going to punish players for being lazy, how about those people too lazy to rez their fellow players? Some punishment is clearly in order....like maybe making dead people still scale up the difficulty. Heh, heh. You all have your pet peeve, mine is when a big meta battle is over and almost everyone runs for the loot chest ignoring the dead and downed players left behind.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:Not at all. Your thread was full of motivations. Maybe not you per se, but you are being disingenuous if you tell me that everyone in your thread was only looking out for the evils of upscaling.

I can't speak for everyone, and neither can you. There are people on both practical sides of any issue that can fall into either "moderate, reasonable" ends of that side, or "irrational lunatic" wings of that side. The point where any argument breaks down is when people start to believe that anyone who is on the side they disagree with must therefore fall into the "irrational lunatic" wing of that side. There is no rational discussion to be had after that, which is why we must strive not to find reasons to dismiss the arguments of the opposing side by linking anyone who disagrees to the most radical responses on that side, but rather to look for the most rational and well thought out responses. If you can't adequately counter those, then maybe your own side isn't as infallible as you'd like to believe.

I came into this "debate", as I always do, an amblivient party with no horse in the race. Read some comments I found to be veiled pettiness and now emerge as someone, who out of spite, will now back all non-waypointers and afk leeches.

I will support the side that is less drama. Even if I disagree with them.

Forgive me for saying so, but that is an absolutely horrible way to go through life, and inevitably leads to the worst possible outcomes in all circumstances.

2 other users have you several options. EVERYONE BUT ME IGNORED THEM.And when I brought it to your attention...

"Ubbhh hubbub bu-by but it's not the same"

Because the options you pointed out did nothing to address the concerns I had, the ones my original proposal was intended to solve. I responded to your post by pointing this out and asking how you thought that they might address my concerns, but so far nobody has been able to come up with an answer.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:Not at all. Your thread was full of motivations. Maybe not you per se, but you are being disingenuous if you tell me that everyone in your thread was only looking out for the evils of upscaling.

I can't speak for everyone, and neither can you. There are people on both practical sides of any issue that can fall into either "moderate, reasonable" ends of that side, or "irrational lunatic" wings of that side. The point where any argument breaks down is when people start to believe that anyone who is on the side they disagree with must therefore fall into the "irrational lunatic" wing of that side. There is no rational discussion to be had after that, which is why we must strive not to find reasons to dismiss the arguments of the opposing side by linking anyone who disagrees to the most radical responses on that side, but rather to look for the

most

rational and well thought out responses. If you can't adequately counter

those,

then maybe your own side isn't as infallible as you'd like to believe.

If you paid real close attention to all my posts, I never once dismissed any of the issues people have with dead people not waypointing. I never said you (y'all) are wrong. In fact several times I said you were right.

What I am dismissing is an attitude I see. A general behavioural pattern. And if you really want to get into semantics, a hypocritical one.

I came into this "debate", as I always do, an amblivient party with no horse in the race. Read some comments I found to be veiled pettiness and now emerge as someone, who out of spite, will now back all non-waypointers and afk leeches.

I will support the side that is less drama. Even if I disagree with them.

Forgive me for saying so, but that is an absolutely

horrible

way to go through life, and inevitably leads to the worst possible outcomes in all circumstances.

Not really. Even if someone is on your side of any argument/party/ family/ group and their interests are vested with yours it does not mean they are cool folks who are worth your time.

If x interest proposed a bunch of changes that benefited me personally but is purely orchestrated by emotional irrational angry people, I would turn them down and side with the opposition, if it meant I had the option of not having to deal with the loons.

2 other users have you several options. EVERYONE BUT ME IGNORED THEM.And when I brought it to your attention...

"Ubbhh hubbub bu-by but it's not the same"

Because the options you pointed out did nothing to address the concerns I had, the ones my original proposal was intended to solve. I responded to your post by pointing this out and asking how you thought that they

might

address my concerns, but so far nobody has been able to come up with an answer.

Fair enough, I keep getting sidetracked so I didn't acknowledge your personal gripe here; battlefield clutter.

That I think is a whole separate topic at this point and to be honest you should have lead your entire argument with that instead of a forced wp/tax.

Because for that Im 100% behind you.

[Zeivu.3615]

Honestly, players should be teleported to the most nearby major city free of charge if they stay downed for a 30 seconds or longer and have their participation wiped. That way the boss doesn't scale, and every PLAYER gets a fair chance.

@DearlyMe.5320 said:Why is this a thing? The dead can't even participate. I care more about this than this back and forth about etiquette. No one should be punished for not using a waypoint. That's so narrow-minded. There's more than just laziness that keeps someone dead.If they're laying there and demanding a revive, now that's different.

Corpses scale bosses. Them lying around HURTS you and everyone else.

@Arzurag.7506 said:I don´t really understand what exactly the issue is here.If someone dies, unlucky or just unaware, he just needs someone who can resurrect him which only takes a few seconds.I mean, at least I help people who died or lie on the ground in downstate, why not ?

Some bosses are highly DPS sensitive and their corpse scaling the fight doesn't help.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

Were we just merged?

[Ohoni.6057]

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:What I am dismissing is an attitude I see. A general behavioural pattern. And if you really want to get into semantics, a hypocritical one.

Ok, but if so, maybe just keep it to some other thread, because that's off topic for this one.

Fair enough, I keep getting sidetracked so I didn't acknowledge your personal gripe here; battlefield clutter.

That I think is a whole separate topic at this point and to be honest you should have lead your entire argument with that instead of a forced wp/tax.

I at first considered it an assumed part of my argument. When questioned about it, I clarified my case on the matter, in like the third post on this thread.

Were we just merged?

'Fraid so.

[keyokku.5412]

I see comments saying "slackers" or "lazy people " I honestly have almost never seen people who were dead and don't wp bc they're lazy or slackers. All of them were determinedly contributing well for most of the event. But a mistimed evade or a massive aoe downs a whole bunch of players and they are full dead. Most of them wp or have been revived from down or the event is on the verge of failing already due to variety of coordination or mechanics or DPS factors OR the boss is almost killed already in just 30 more seconds and you see there is enough DPS and enough players. Why is the immediate conclusion that they are slackers? almost never have I seen people who can just be called slackers and should be punished. Even the two or three who don't wp I wouldn't call slackers. Maybe they're new, and maybe a whole lot of other circumstances of the event. When you are quick to accuse and label others with a negative mindset of course you're going to respond in such a biased extreme manner.

[Healix.5819]

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:But what if someone who did golemmk2 for 7 min and had to check on something for 30 seconds. Why does that invalidate the effort put in?

ArenaNet already does this in HoT+ with the inactivity timer. It doesn't matter if you did 99% of an event solo, if you die and don't make it back in time, you'll get nothing if someone else comes along and finishes the event. The game needs a real contribution system, but it'll likely never happen.

[BaileyHelix.1947]

@"Cragga the Eighty Third.6015" said:If we're going to punish players for being lazy, how about those people too lazy to rez their fellow players? Some punishment is clearly in order....like maybe making dead people still scale up the difficulty. Heh, heh. You all have your pet peeve, mine is when a big meta battle is over and almost everyone runs for the loot chest ignoring the dead and downed players left behind.

I'm sorry but why would you want to punish those who did their jobs and stayed alive during the event? I'm sorry that it annoys you that someone wants to collect their rewards for before ressing someone else, but thankfully there is a simple solution here. Just don't die, if you don't die then no one has to res you and you can collect your rewards with them, or res other people that died if you prefer. It is incredibly selfish to think that other players should have to fix your mistake for you before collecting their own reward, when you can simply fix your own mistake by taking the waypoint and running back.

[Chamelion.9536]

Did not read every reply, but adding a thought; What if you get bonus EXP/Rewards in an event when you successfully rez someone who's died? Call it "Teamwork Bonus" and for the dead, if they are at the event when it ends, they get a reduction of EXP/Rewards. And for AFK, if you don't activate, use a skill every 30 seconds that scores damage, a warning pops up that you'll receive a reduction of EXP/Rewards at the end if you don't 'pick up the slack'.

Now, for those who run in near the end of an event because they're late, or logged in as the event is at say 10%, or less, limit their EXP reward based on the % of time they are in battle, but don't limit their rewards.. since it can't be fairly determined if they waited on purpose or just couldn't get there sooner.

It should encourage a WP immediately on death, but when downed and not dead, encourage others to rez if possible.

C