A "don't waypoint when dead" fee?

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

@Zacchary.6183 said:I choose indifferent. But if they are going to take out dead player scaling, they should also remove dead player participation as well.

Now the thought of someone dying just before the enemy dies.One example would be that one Tarnished Exhalted in Tarir after the Meta. I've seen countless times that either just before he's downed or right when he's downed, he does another attack and kill quite a few people.

In that situation, that would make them for that second or 2 that they were dead make the fight not count for them. Not counting for them mean they would not be able to open the chest.I can see the rage on the forums from other situations like this.

[Seera.5916]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Joxer.6024 said:People being lazy kitten isn't going to change and ANET cant "design" that. It is what it is sadly. :/

That's why we get suggestions to make people less lazy. Unfortunately instead of discussing solutions to the problem it's all about how to defend laziness around here.

I'd rather they address the reasons behind why not waypointing when dead is bad. That way both crowds will be as pleased as they're ever going to be.

[Yamazuki.6073]

@Ayumi Spender.1082 said:

@Zacchary.6183 said:I choose indifferent. But if they are going to take out dead player scaling, they should also remove dead player participation as well.

Now the thought of someone dying just before the enemy dies.One example would be that one Tarnished Exhalted in Tarir after the Meta. I've seen countless times that either just before he's downed or right when he's downed, he does another attack and kill quite a few people.

In that situation, that would make them for that second or 2 that they were dead make the fight not count for them. Not counting for them mean they would not be able to open the chest.I can see the rage on the forums from other situations like this.

Some events already drop your participation when you're "inactive". This would simply be applied to all events rather than the HoT events. If you died at the end this wouldn't impact you, it's for those who die early on, and stay dead for 99% of the event but receive 100% of the rewards everyone got for actually participating.

By the way, this thread isn't any more "honest" than any of the others, it's still pushing your personal agenda, especially if you look at "indifferent", you're not "indifferent" if you're suggesting a change. You set the poll up to have 2 options that favor you and one that doesn't, essentially it's rigged. The opposite of "truth".

[maddoctor.2738]

@Seera.5916 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Joxer.6024 said:People being lazy kitten isn't going to change and ANET cant "design" that. It is what it is sadly. :/

That's why we get suggestions to make people less lazy. Unfortunately instead of discussing solutions to the problem it's all about how to defend laziness around here.

I'd rather they address the reasons behind why not waypointing when dead is bad. That way both crowds will be as pleased as they're ever going to be.

Got a suggestion on how they would do this?

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Ohoni.6057 said:and a negligible charge

That's punishment.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@CharterforGw.3149 said:if they want to stay dead, let them stay dead, we have no obligation to rezz them.and your point on rezzing a downed player... it's better to get downed players up and contnue to fight, than have them spawn miles away at the WP and have them move back to the fight (takes way longer and reduces damage more significantly)

Dying is already a punishment with the moving to a way point to "solo" rezz and having to repair gear. giving people a fine is kicking someone who is already down.What they could do is apply the same rule for being dead to long as being away to long (if they haven't already done this). where you will lose any participation to an event when you leave the area of the event for to long (this was to avoid people nipping in at all the events and then leave)

if someone just wants to watch the fight and doesn't care about losing the reward, let them do so, again you don't have to rezz them

sorry jut had to giggle at this... repair costs are a punishment - - really!Leaving them dead is like kicking them when they are down - you jest of course.

The dead don't care if they get ressed 99% of the time. In fact many know they are going to die, that's why they run in blindly and set skill one attack auto so they can tag whatever they are doing die and loot at the end.

But then again why should dead WP when all around they see players running against walls or placing certain skills on an auto in an attempt to be AFK thro the events... a participation bar only works when it can't be circumvented.Both AFK'ers and the dead don't care about boss scaling or actually helping to overcome what is in front of us, they simply want to wait it out and reap the reward.

Perma death has some real mileage against these kinda players and it would be fun seeing all those map chat tears.. the crystal desert would become an ocean soon enough :)

[killermanjaro.5670]

I'd like to say players shouldn't be punished for staying dead, but I would favour an auto teleport to nearest way point after 5 mins mechanic. Some might say that's a punishment, but as it would only be the standard WP fee I wouldn't say it's a punishment, as dead people that WP to keep the fight/event going pay that already, so it would just be everyone paying the same thing.

If the standard WP cost is considered a punishment to them, then you could argue that active players are the ones currently being punished as they are having to pay to keep the fight going, meaning the ones of who have stayed dead for most of it get the same reward, but are also a couple of silver better off than some of the people who actually put effort into the fight and made it succeed. (I don't actually see it this way, , but just saying that's how you could look at it).

[Ohoni.6057]

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:and a negligible charge

That's punishment.

No, it's not. It's a balancing factor. Currently, a player has two options: 1. WP, which carries a cost, and then the time and effort it takes to manually run back, or 2. stay on the ground, which is completely free. Now I don't believe in punishing people for staying on the ground, but I do think it makes sense to balance the costs involved, so that it's an equivalent choice, and that people who choose to waypoint are not being martyrs, they are just making a fair, coin-flip choice to pay a fee and WP rather than pay a fee and not WP. How else do you see the two options as being balanced out?

[Ohoni.6057]

I just had an idea for how to make the "rather not waypoint" charge a bit more palatable, give it to the players that rez the person! Wouldn't that be cool? Instead of being a pure gold sink, make it so that if people WP, they get charged X silver, and that money just goes back into the pits. If a player chooses not to WP, however, they are charged the same amount, but that money gets set aside. Then, anyone who helps rez that person, gets a portion of that X silver roughly proportionate to the amount of HP they rez out of the person, so basically if they fully rez the person, they get 100% of the silver, if they 50/50 split it with another person, they each get half, and so on. Obviously it couldn't be perfect in large mob situations, each person might get a few coppers, and the rounding errors can go back to the bank, but ti would be a nice little reward for helping a fellow player out.

The only downside I can think of is that it gives some incentive for players to not rez downed players, since if they decide to stick around it might mean a little extra cash, but I think that's a negligible issue in large group zergs, because the "profits" would be split so thin between everyone that it wouldn't be worth caring.

[Joxer.6024]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Joxer.6024 said:People being lazy kitten isn't going to change and ANET cant "design" that. It is what it is sadly. :/

That's why we get suggestions to make people less lazy.

And I for one would love to see some!!!

[Tachenon.5270]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

Your argument here is like saying that if a driver runs through a stop sign, and crashes into another car, that this second driver is the one at fault, for not getting out of his way.

And if you were attempting sarcasm, remember Poe's Law, and that at least some of the participants in this thread seem at least this out of touch with causality.

My argument here is a mirror, reflecting, as mirrors do, what is set before it. Unless it's a magic mirror, of course, but that's a topic for another thread.

If this is truly the massive, game-breaking problem you and a few others here are making it out to be, then the solution is immanently clear: the dead should not count in regard to event scaling. That's it, and that's all. Punishing the dead won't fix the problem. It seems, however, that fixing the problem is a less desirable outcome than making those who refuse to play your way pay -- literally! -- for their temerity. How dare they not accede to your demands. The gall.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Tachenon.5270 said:If this is truly the massive, game-breaking problem you and a few others here are making it out to be,

I hope I didn't give the impression that this was somehow "game breaking." It's more of a quality of life issue, really, or a minor balance issue at most. Still, I think it's worth doing something about, if they can budget the time to do so.

then the solution is immanently clear: the dead should not count in regard to event scaling. That's it, and that's all.

What does that have to do with them being on the ground, cluttering the battlefield? I mean, fizx that, sure, but it doesn't solve the problem in any way, or even address it.

It seems, however, that fixing the problem is a less desirable outcome than making those who refuse to play your way pay -- literally! -- for their temerity. How dare they not accede to your demands. The gall.

Again, no, that's missing the point entirely.

[Tachenon.5270]

The dead should not be punished for not waypointing, Anet should fix dead scaling, and the dead should receive event awards commensurate with their contribution prior to dying. Gold, silver, bronze, a free beer, whatever.

[Holykitten.3064]

Why is there now 3 threads on this same thing?

It's simple, ress downed people, dead should not expect to be ressed, and should grant themselves lucky if some people do ress them.Open world PvE, if players want to stay dead let them, if others want to ress them, let them.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

then the solution is immanently clear: the dead should not count in regard to event scaling. That's it, and that's all.

What does that have to do with them being on the ground, cluttering the battlefield? I mean, fizx that, sure, but it doesn't solve the problem in any way, or even address it.

The dead body clutter vs the animations, other players, banners, etc clutter is negligible. And your proposed system doesn't really solve it. You can still easily lie 30 seconds on the ground. After those 30 seconds, even without this horribly thoughtout system, most players have already waypointed anyway. The majority of players already waypoints. This system would solve a problem that barely exists while putting EVERYONE else under that system.

Changing etiquette into rule is also not a good idea in general.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Cuddy.6247 said:When is half a squad staying dead at a world boss? I've ran through plenty of world bosses and

if

people die, which is rare enough on its own, most of them can be resed back up almost immediately. The number of times I see these mass deaths are usually at the launch of major events, like the number of people who would stay dead at gerent for the first few weeks of HoT before getting their kitten together.

Viscount of Candy Corn is an example. Tequatl is another. Triple Trouble. Chak Gerent and Wyvern Matriarch. The Tower phase in Dragon's Stand, and so on.It's rare to see most dead because they usually use a waypoint. Unless it's a weekend, then the corpses hide the mini map.You know all the boss events that require more intelligence than a monkey to play.

That's like a handful events vs a thousands of other events, jumping puzzles, general exploration, races. Not that I ever seen an amount of corpses that hide the minimap. (maybe with the tequatl tidal wave when that event was actually popular)

[Rennie.6750]

Stop slacking, use the WP. 1 silver is nothing except for the few with some mental disorder... Event participation decay should be very fast when dead.

[Ohoni.6057]

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:The dead body clutter vs the animations, other players, banners, etc clutter is negligible.

Your opinion, but I disagree.

Although banners are annoying and it's nice that they're less often used these days.

You can still easily lie 30 seconds on the ground. After those 30 seconds, even without this horribly thoughtout system, most players have already waypointed anyway. The majority of players already waypoints. This system would solve a problem that barely exists while putting EVERYONE else under that system.

Yes, you can still lay there for 30 seconds. On the other hand, knowing that you will be booted or have to pay a WP fee anyway at the end of that thirty seconds, if you anticipate that you aren't likely to get rezzed within that time limit then you might as well WP faster. It disincentivizes players for waiting around, because they'd basically be wasting their own time, whereas in the current system, they can basically just take a nap and not worry about it.

Changing etiquette into rule is also not a good idea in general.

How so?

[Tachenon.5270]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Tachenon.5270 said:

then the solution is immanently clear: the dead should not count in regard to event scaling. That's it, and that's all.

What does that have to do with them being on the ground, cluttering the battlefield? I mean, fizx that, sure, but it doesn't solve the problem in any way, or even address it.

Cluttering the... oh. Oh. So, it's not the dead causing events to scale that bothers you, it's the... untidiness of it all. I see. That seems to have gotten lost in the, ahem, clutter. Thanks for clearing that up. Folks, it's all been a big misunderstanding. Everything's fine now. Nothing to see here. Move along.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Tachenon.5270 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Tachenon.5270 said:

then the solution is immanently clear: the dead should not count in regard to event scaling. That's it, and that's all.

What does that have to do with them being on the ground, cluttering the battlefield? I mean, fizx that, sure, but it doesn't solve the problem in any way, or even address it.

Cluttering the... oh. Oh. So, it's not the dead causing events to scale that bothers you, it's the... untidiness of it all. I see. That seems to have gotten lost in the, ahem, clutter. Thanks for clearing that up. Folks, it's all been a big misunderstanding. Everything's fine now. Nothing to see here. Move along.

It was right there on the first page, didn't you read it? I wasn't unclear about that.

[BunjiKugashira.9754]

I would love a real participation meter together with a rework of the participation tiers (bronze, silver and gold). Maybe only ever getting bronze for hugging the floor will make some people put a bit more effort in. Also we need a different key for rezzing fully dead players. It shouldn't be bound to the same key as interacting with the environment or rezzing downed players.

The current participation decay is a bad mechanic imo. It's either incredibly short, so even if you wp and run back immediately you will still loose participation on the way. If someone finishes the event in the meantime you get nothing. Or it's incredibly long (or not there at all), so activity doesn't even matter. Also the activity decay means that if you participated in 80% of the event and then suddenly need to go afk, you get less than someone who joined the event for the last 5%. I still remember when participation decay was first implemented: After the last hostile mob was defeated, NPCs would sometimes talk / walk long enough for everyone to loose participation before the event was officially completed. Fun times.

[Djinn.9245]

In my opinion, dead people refuse to WP for a variety of reasons. Some may not have the WP, may not understand that being dead makes a difference, may think they need to stay at the event to keep participation, may think they have to stay at the event to get the chest, etc. What it comes down to is that there is no education from the game about being dead.

My solution would be that there should be more education given in-game about even the most basic things. And maybe rez sphere's should be cheaper.

[Ashen.2907]

@Astralporing.1957 said:run right through the event area.

Things like this are why I think that participation might need some looking at. I have received credit for events by running past them, without actually purposefully contributing (I dont know, perhaps my pet took a swipe at a mob before I recalled

@Tachenon.5270 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Tachenon.5270 said:

then the solution is immanently clear: the dead should not count in regard to event scaling. That's it, and that's all.

What does that have to do with them being on the ground, cluttering the battlefield? I mean, fizx that, sure, but it doesn't solve the problem in any way, or even address it.

Cluttering the... oh. Oh. So, it's not the dead causing events to scale that bothers you, it's the... untidiness of it all. I see. That seems to have gotten lost in the, ahem, clutter. Thanks for clearing that up. Folks, it's all been a big misunderstanding. Everything's fine now. Nothing to see here. Move along.

That has been a stated part of the concern for some since the beginning of the discussion.

[notebene.3190]

Maybe there just needs to be a designated recovery point for certain, designated events that isn't a WP that doesn't put you so far away that you might lose your participation? It might not help with all situations, but for those that simply don't do it because they are concerned about losing their participation, and are the ones who aren't afk and were working as hard as they could up to that point, it would be a way to encourage them to get back in the fight.

In some cases, like Shatterer, it is right there, and you don't lose progression. The recovery point would just be at that WP.

Golem is probably close enough. Teq should be the WP that is 'always' contested (and don't get me started about contested WPs outside of WvW).

You start getting into HoT and PoF, they totally need one. In PoF, especially for those bounties, as travelling can be nasty, and sometimes the closest waypoint is in Caratgena.

[maddoctor.2738]

@notebene.3190 said:Maybe there just needs to be a designated recovery point for certain, designated events that isn't a WP that doesn't put you so far away that you might lose your participation?

Well if the problem was distance then during those fights that the waypoint is right next to the boss we wouldn't see dead players. Yet we do.It's a good idea for PoF bounties as the waypoints there are too far away, but it's not a thing that happens only when the distance is great, so it's not a solution for all cases.

[Cragga the Eighty Third.60]

@Deepcuts.9740 said:A solution is not easy to find for this one, but I imagine people totally against the idea that something must be done are the ones laying on the floor at events such as Dragon Stand for the entire battle.Leeches usually scream loudest when you tell them to WP.

In my experience, the people who scream loudest are the selfish pricks who are outraged that they are expected to treat other people the way they want to be treated themselves.

I play a druid. I heal anybody who needs healing, even at times when I am yelling, "Just waypoint, you fool!" offscreen. And I wp when I am dead. A lot of my stats are geared toward healing, and it is probably a MUCH better use of my time to get those high-DPS glass condi builds up off the ground and doing damage again than kitten-slapping the enemy myself, no matter how many times they die.