A "don't waypoint when dead" fee?

[Silmar Alech.4305]

No answer possible, because poll doesn't contain enough information about what the poll is actually about. OP seems to assume people are able to guess.Having said that, I don't want players ever to be "punished", whatever it is. This is a game, and players should not be punished, a game is there for players to have fun. If you want to have my vote, phrase a poll more neutral and ask which game mechanic you dislike and what change you want to propose. If you really propose players should be actually punished (slapped or taken things away) for something, you have my "nay".

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Zacchary.6183 said:I choose indifferent. But if they are going to take out dead player scaling, they should also remove dead player participation as well.

Well if you fought along side others and died you shouldnt get more participation afterwards but atleast that bit what you did should get rewarded.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

@Zacchary.6183 said:[...]

Yes. Because hitting enter, typing "dead pls wp", and hitting enter again takes way too long to type to justify the dps loss.

While people think "Pls" is just a short way to say "please", its indolent and apathetic overuse is breaking that down.There's people that use it mindlessly as some sort of magic word that is supposed to compel other people into doing their bidding, like those saying "res pls" while defeated in the middle of a busy fight where no one can safely revive them, even though they had all the time in the world to use a waypoint and run back, or to at least have the decency to type actual words if they are going to ask something from others.I kid you not, I've seen people spamming "res pls" like crazy while over the deadly electrified fields at the Golem MkII world boss, until people got pissed and blocked them.That kind of situation has been turning its meaning for many people into something that feels more like the word a lazy solipsist uses to order "the others that are not me" to make stuff for them.

And so people have begun to ignore lazy chat lines like that.

[sorudo.9054]

i don't even know why Anet found it a great idea to count dead players for events, when you die your participation should fail and there for not count.what they should do however, is adding a benefit on reviving players during events.a rally condition for instance that absorbes damage for a short time after a succeeded revival, they could also not count the revived player for the first 10 seconds so scaling could be at your advantage when the survivors revive dead players.

i always see ppl whine about how dead players should go away while not thinking about why they stay, i also see ppl say it's not worth reviving players while it is all for the benefit of succeeding an event.IMO players should be encouraged to revive, a dead player could be the savior of the event if given the chance.

[dolcolax.1268]

in wvw you get punished if you die and not wp immediately by not getting your loot bags XD especially if its a chest. actually this happened to me in teq as well. but i was able to wp and return to my position in a jiffy coz of mounts

edit: i have to disagree that reviving a fully dead player will save rhe event. some events if you stay in one position for too long will get the rezzer killed as well. now you have two ppl down instead of one. worse if another player to try to rez as well and dies...

[Cuon Alpinus.7645]

This poll is even worse than the last one with its bias toward punishment. The "should need" or "should not need" doesn't imply PUNISHMENT for using the game's mechanics, just being courteous to your fellow players. This is making it far too black and white, even if you do have an 'indifference' option based on scaling.

[DearlyMe.5320]

Why is this a thing? The dead can't even participate. I care more about this than this back and forth about etiquette. No one should be punished for not using a waypoint. That's so narrow-minded. There's more than just laziness that keeps someone dead.If they're laying there and demanding a revive, now that's different.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@Haleydawn.3764 said:Why is there now 3 threads on this same thing?

It's simple, ress downed people, dead should not expect to be ressed, and should grant themselves lucky if some people do ress them.Open world PvE, if players want to stay dead let them, if others want to ress them, let them.

There are 3 threads because the thought of just not caring about other players business is insaaaaaaane.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@"Cuon Alpinus.7645" said:This poll is even worse than the last one with its bias toward punishment. The "should need" or "should not need" doesn't imply PUNISHMENT for using the game's mechanics, just being courteous to your fellow players. This is making it far too black and white, even if you do have an 'indifference' option based on scaling.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT.

The fact that the NOT SO SECRET motivator for several people here is pure petty punishment and nothing to do with game mechanics or its flaws.

Holy cow.

This whole poll wasn't made because I though we needed yet another thread on a ridiculous topic. I made it to shoehorn people into being more genuine about their positions. Amd even then they aren't!

Say what you want, but I can at least say what I mean without being a coward about it.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

I'm not sure the OP is asking the useful question. The problem isn't that people do or don't WP, it's the game's mechanics makes us care if they do or don't. So here are some alternatives:

• ANet changes event scaling to depend only on live or downed characters.
• ANet prevents people from rezzing fully dead while in combat, same as it works in WvW.
• Change the priority of interact so that any downed character within max range gets priority over fully dead even at min range. Decrease the range for rezzing fully dead; increase it for helping downed to rally.
• Pop up a reminder to the downed: "you can rally off any nearby foe death" (since many don't realize this).

While we wait for ANet to act, here's something that the "please waypoint" crowd can already do:

• Explain the mechanics before the event gets fully underway.
• Offer people clear details (e.g. not just "bring CC" but "eles, please bring ice bows")

When commanders (and friends) do that, it's much more likely that the event will go more smoothly, resulting in fewer deaths in the first place.

---

I am convinced that people make a much bigger deal about this than it really matters. While it's true that dead characters cause two issues for the remaining players (scaling difficulty of the event, interfering with getting the downed up), it's also rarely true that fully dead are a meaningful cause of a failed event. Yes, we've all been at events failing with numerous dead, but it turns out that nearly all the time, lots of other things were also going wrong... otherwise we wouldn't have gotten to the point where even a bunch of dead would matter.

For example, Ignis & Ascii [sic] in Draconis: if we break the bar even once, the right is usually easy; if we don't, it's a slog fest. And even then, the event tends to fail only if people don't know how to get to safe ground. In such cases, it hardly matters if the dead WP or not; the inability to handle the other mechanics already determined the outcome. The same is true with various PoF bounties, Silverwastes bosses, Octovine, etc.

In short, if it gets to the point where we have to worry about the dead waypointing or not, it's already too late.

[Ashen.2907]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:I am convinced that people make a much bigger deal about this than it really matters.

In short, if it gets to the point where we have to worry about the dead waypointing or not, it's already too late.

Amen.

[Arzurag.7506]

I don´t really understand what exactly the issue is here.If someone dies, unlucky or just unaware, he just needs someone who can resurrect him which only takes a few seconds.I mean, at least I help people who died or lie on the ground in downstate, why not ?

[Samnang.1879]

i think they should do it like pvp... when dead u get automatically teleported to the nearest wp after 10 or 15 seconds.

[Seera.5916]

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:I'm not sure the OP is asking the useful question. The problem isn't that people do or don't WP, it's the game's mechanics makes us care if they do or don't. So here are some alternatives:

• ANet changes event scaling to depend only on live or downed characters.
• ANet prevents people from rezzing fully dead while in combat, same as it works in WvW.
• Change the priority of interact so that any downed character within max range gets priority over fully dead even at min range. Decrease the range for rezzing fully dead; increase it for helping downed to rally.
• Pop up a reminder to the downed: "you can rally off any nearby foe death" (since many don't realize this).

While we wait for ANet to act, here's something that the "please waypoint" crowd can already do:

• Explain the mechanics before the event gets fully underway.
• Offer people clear details (e.g. not just "bring CC" but "eles, please bring ice bows")

When commanders (and friends) do that, it's much more likely that the event will go more smoothly, resulting in fewer deaths in the first place.

---

I am convinced that people make a much bigger deal about this than it really matters. While it's true that dead characters cause two issues for the remaining players (scaling difficulty of the event, interfering with getting the downed up), it's also rarely true that fully dead are a meaningful cause of a failed event. Yes, we've all been at events failing with numerous dead, but it turns out that nearly all the time, lots of other things were also going wrong... otherwise we wouldn't have gotten to the point where even a bunch of dead would matter.

For example, Ignis & Ascii [sic] in Draconis: if we break the bar even once, the right is usually easy; if we don't, it's a slog fest. And even then, the event tends to fail only if people don't know how to get to safe ground. In such cases, it hardly matters if the dead WP or not; the inability to handle the other mechanics already determined the outcome. The same is true with various PoF bounties, Silverwastes bosses, Octovine, etc.

In short, if it gets to the point where we have to worry about the dead waypointing or not, it's already too late.

THIS. The reason behind this being an issue should be what people are focused on fixing. Because I think we can all agree that the reasons why the dead not waypointing can be a problem are things that should be fixed.

[Ghost Nightstalker.7163]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Cuddy.6247 said:When is half a squad staying dead at a world boss? I've ran through plenty of world bosses and

if

people die, which is rare enough on its own, most of them can be resed back up almost immediately. The number of times I see these mass deaths are usually at the launch of major events, like the number of people who would stay dead at gerent for the first few weeks of HoT before getting their kitten together.

Viscount of Candy Corn is an example. Tequatl is another. Triple Trouble. Chak Gerent and Wyvern Matriarch. The Tower phase in Dragon's Stand, and so on.It's rare to see most dead because they usually use a waypoint. Unless it's a weekend, then the corpses hide the mini map.You know all the boss events that require more intelligence than a monkey to play.

You must join the wrong maps then. The only maps of those bosses that i see fail, are the ones joined at the last minute. And all the taxi maps are full so you're left with a ragtag bunch of people. Also at teq half the map can be dead and it still wont fail since player DPS has gotten so high. You can even do map wide naked runs and it'll succeed.

[Seera.5916]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Seera.5916 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Joxer.6024 said:People being lazy kitten isn't going to change and ANET cant "design" that. It is what it is sadly. :/

That's why we get suggestions to make people less lazy. Unfortunately instead of discussing solutions to the problem it's all about how to defend laziness around here.

I'd rather they address the reasons behind why not waypointing when dead is bad. That way both crowds will be as pleased as they're ever going to be.

Got a suggestion on how they would do this?

1. Make the dead not upscale events. That way the loss of their DPS doesn't hurt those who are still alive or who choose to waypoint after death.
2. Change the priority on the interactions so that if multiple interactable objects are within range, rezzing the fully dead takes lowest priority. So you rez the downed before the fully dead. You grab the charrzooka/ice bow/etc before rezzing the fully dead.

What other negative effects are there?

[FrizzFreston.5290]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@notebene.3190 said:Maybe there just needs to be a designated recovery point for certain, designated events that isn't a WP that doesn't put you so far away that you might lose your participation?

Well if the problem was distance then during those fights that the waypoint is right next to the boss we wouldn't see dead players. Yet we do.It's a good idea for PoF bounties as the waypoints there are too far away, but it's not a thing that happens only when the distance is great, so it's not a solution for all cases.

Well, it would be a solution to the problem existing within the original proposal where is suggested that you get automatically waypointed.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@"Cuon Alpinus.7645" said:This poll is even worse than the last one with its bias toward punishment. The "should need" or "should not need" doesn't imply PUNISHMENT for using the game's mechanics, just being courteous to your fellow players. This is making it far too black and white, even if you do have an 'indifference' option based on scaling.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT.

The fact that the NOT SO SECRET motivator for several people here is pure petty punishment and nothing to do with game mechanics or its flaws.

Holy cow.

This whole poll wasn't made because I though we needed yet another thread on a ridiculous topic. I made it to shoehorn people into being more genuine about their positions. Amd even then they aren't!

Say what you want, but

I

can at least say what I mean without being a coward about it.

Or, could it be that you are projecting motivations onto other people that don't exist, rather than actually listening to what they say?

[Cuddy.6247]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Cuddy.6247 said:When is half a squad staying dead at a world boss? I've ran through plenty of world bosses and

if

people die, which is rare enough on its own, most of them can be resed back up almost immediately. The number of times I see these mass deaths are usually at the launch of major events, like the number of people who would stay dead at gerent for the first few weeks of HoT before getting their kitten together.

Viscount of Candy Corn is an example. Tequatl is another. Triple Trouble. Chak Gerent and Wyvern Matriarch. The Tower phase in Dragon's Stand, and so on.It's rare to see most dead because they usually use a waypoint. Unless it's a weekend, then the corpses hide the mini map.You know all the boss events that require more intelligence than a monkey to play.

And none of those will down half a squad. So I stand by my assumption that this isn't happening.

[keyokku.5412]

@Aurelian Omenkind.2470 said:Some players may choose not to WP and run back because of any number of logistical reasons: they’re still exploring that particular map and haven’t uncovered a reasonably close WP at which to respawn and run back to join the fight, they’re unsure how much longer said fight will take and feel they’d be too late to contribute in time, a nearby WP could be contested requiring an even longer run though potentially hostile and difficult zones, etc.

I’m wholly against some sort of punishment simply because someone chooses not to get out of your way. Even if the player’s corpse is basically F-key litter, you can still dodge roll out of rezzing them to get back to the fight. I wouldn’t mind a forced WP mechanic where the system automatically chooses the nearest uncontested, discovered WP and sends them there and automatically takes the WP fee but only if the player has been defeated for, say, 3-5 minutes. Any other punitive measure is petty and vindictive.

This right here. And again not everyone can wp, not every event has near enough wps. And I am a player that instantly wps even if someone tries to rez me while I am fully defeated, I ain't wasting their time. But there are also times when the event is almost over the boss is almost dead in another 30 seconds or less. So I stay there. I don't think if I stay for 30 seconds and the wp would be a farther than 30 second run should mean I lose rewards for contributing the first 15 minutes or get fined. Lol what if someone literally ran out of wp silver? That happened to me once before. There are a variety of other possibilities why someone might need to stay there and that it's a better option.

Yes wp back should be and has always been encouraged and from my experience most players who are not completely new to the game do wp back. Even new players learn to when told. I personally have not seen much issue with it. Most downed players are rezd right away.

That said even if it is just a warning and instructional game message that might work. If they lay fully defeated for like 5 minutes maybe we could consider them AFK and respawn them like PvP and wvw has. If the event is still going on after 5 minutes then they could probably have ran back.

But 30 seconds? Even 2 minutes? They could've been contributing for 20 minutes and then decided to wait it out because it's almost over and there are more than enough people or whatever various reasons.

Also there is this whole mindset that the game is all about efficiency and earning all the rewards. For some people that's not what the game is for them. For some events with a timer yeah I understand the extra frustration and need for help if it happens but for other events? Why must the game put pressure on players to operate on stress and efficiency? Some people don't care about that. Some are there to chill and relax. Some replies have echoed that this is your way of playing but not some others.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Bad idea, and 30s is overly punitive. This would have only use in the context of world boss fights and large meta events, and rare is it that the tradition isn't picking up all the dead people after the fight ends, plus common word is to not res double downed people if it is dangerous. But sometimes we have a mass of people that can take time to res people but not within the span of 30s.

And let's just say I fall and die and an event starts. My friend can't get down there in 30 seconds so we have to run back? This just leads to more problems.

Finally, let's not forget some places are kinda hard to get to, such as events in VB. In these cases, hard ressing is incredibly helpful and I will do it because sometimes we really need the bodies.

The problem is annoying, but implementing a narrow solution isn't really going to help matters.

@Seera.5916 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Seera.5916 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Joxer.6024 said:People being lazy kitten isn't going to change and ANET cant "design" that. It is what it is sadly. :/

That's why we get suggestions to make people less lazy. Unfortunately instead of discussing solutions to the problem it's all about how to defend laziness around here.

I'd rather they address the reasons behind why not waypointing when dead is bad. That way both crowds will be as pleased as they're ever going to be.

Got a suggestion on how they would do this?

1. Make the dead not upscale events. That way the loss of their DPS doesn't hurt those who are still alive or who choose to waypoint after death.
2. Change the priority on the interactions so that if multiple interactable objects are within range, rezzing the fully dead takes lowest priority. So you rez the downed before the fully dead. You grab the charrzooka/ice bow/etc before rezzing the fully dead.

What other negative effects are there?That solves about everything.

[Zacchary.6183]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@"Cuon Alpinus.7645" said:This poll is even worse than the last one with its bias toward punishment. The "should need" or "should not need" doesn't imply PUNISHMENT for using the game's mechanics, just being courteous to your fellow players. This is making it far too black and white, even if you do have an 'indifference' option based on scaling.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT.

The fact that the NOT SO SECRET motivator for several people here is pure petty punishment and nothing to do with game mechanics or its flaws.

Holy cow.

This whole poll wasn't made because I though we needed yet another thread on a ridiculous topic. I made it to shoehorn people into being more genuine about their positions. Amd even then they aren't!

Say what you want, but

I

can at least say what I mean without being a coward about it.

Or, could it be that you are projecting motivations onto other people that don't exist, rather than actually listening to what they say?

I think the general problem is people are conflating and reading into things WAY more than they need to. Seriously, they just need to pick the choice they like or don't pick at all. It isn't like we can edit the poll anyways.

[Seera.5916]

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:

@"Cuon Alpinus.7645" said:This poll is even worse than the last one with its bias toward punishment. The "should need" or "should not need" doesn't imply PUNISHMENT for using the game's mechanics, just being courteous to your fellow players. This is making it far too black and white, even if you do have an 'indifference' option based on scaling.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT.

The fact that the NOT SO SECRET motivator for several people here is pure petty punishment and nothing to do with game mechanics or its flaws.

Holy cow.

This whole poll wasn't made because I though we needed yet another thread on a ridiculous topic. I made it to shoehorn people into being more genuine about their positions. Amd even then they aren't!

Say what you want, but

I

can at least say what I mean without being a coward about it.

Or, could it be that you are projecting motivations onto other people that don't exist, rather than actually listening to what they say?

I think the general problem is people are conflating and reading into things WAY more than they need to. Seriously, they just need to pick the choice they like or don't pick at all. It isn't like we can edit the poll anyways.

And we are free to comment that our choice isn't in the poll and what that choice is.

[danizmax.4329]

Players should be punished for not using WP out after deathI chose this one, just because I see way too many slackers...

Players should not be punished for not using WP out after deathFine, but then they should be disqualified from the last active event after 30 seconds or so.

Indifferent; Anet should remove dead player scalingIn that case lazy ppl would have an extra excuse not to take the effort to run back, is would be the worst solution IMHO.

[danizmax.4329]

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:I'm not sure the OP is asking the useful question. The problem isn't that people do or don't WP, it's the game's mechanics makes us care if they do or don't. So here are some alternatives:

• ANet changes event scaling to depend only on live or downed characters.
• ANet prevents people from rezzing fully dead while in combat, same as it works in WvW.
• Change the priority of interact so that any downed character within max range gets priority over fully dead even at min range. Decrease the range for rezzing fully dead; increase it for helping downed to rally.
• Pop up a reminder to the downed: "you can rally off any nearby foe death" (since many don't realize this).

While we wait for ANet to act, here's something that the "please waypoint" crowd can already do:

• Explain the mechanics before the event gets fully underway.
• Offer people clear details (e.g. not just "bring CC" but "eles, please bring ice bows")

When commanders (and friends) do that, it's much more likely that the event will go more smoothly, resulting in fewer deaths in the first place.

---

I am convinced that people make a much bigger deal about this than it really matters. While it's true that dead characters cause two issues for the remaining players (scaling difficulty of the event, interfering with getting the downed up), it's also rarely true that fully dead are a meaningful cause of a failed event. Yes, we've all been at events failing with numerous dead, but it turns out that nearly all the time, lots of other things were also going wrong... otherwise we wouldn't have gotten to the point where even a bunch of dead would matter.

For example, Ignis & Ascii [sic] in Draconis: if we break the bar even once, the right is usually easy; if we don't, it's a slog fest. And even then, the event tends to fail only if people don't know how to get to safe ground. In such cases, it hardly matters if the dead WP or not; the inability to handle the other mechanics already determined the outcome. The same is true with various PoF bounties, Silverwastes bosses, Octovine, etc.

In short, if it gets to the point where we have to worry about the dead waypointing or not, it's already too late.

You are absolutely right about all you said above, but I would make a small difference in message and mechanics after you die. The message after dying if in active event, I would write "You will be disqualified from the last active event after 30 seconds", that would not only tell ppl whats the downside and educate them, it will also force slackers to continue playing.