A "don't waypoint when dead" fee?

[maddoctor.2738]

@FrizzFreston.5290 said:I don't see failing events as a problem that would need to be solved by the developers.

Failing events is different than failing events because players do not use a waypoint. I think the difference is obvious

[Xeshirem.5038]

To be frank, neither would I personally nor encourage anyone else to WP out when the boss/event/whatever reaches 15% if it takes longer than 10 seconds to return.

Two really big issues to the majority of these proposals is that 1. they're a blanket for a minority, and 2. a lot of it would be prevented if more of the genuinely prone-to-be-defeated-often would just 'git gud' as they say, except they won't in time since they are, currently, the problem being talked about.

I only really see two viable reasons brought up on why these dead people are an issue for everyone else:

1. their bodies share the button for interacting with Literally Everything Oh Gods Why Is There Only One Button For This
2. 'it's unfair imo how they are getting rewards for doing monumentally less work than me'

The first one is a legit concern as it obstructs the speed of actions and gameplay. There's a difference between misclicking between a Dead there and a Downed right next to each other vs. trying to pick of the bundle/ice bow/fiery greatsword/whatever underneath the fool's body and needing to do so in split seconds. In this case, I am referring to the latter. the former is just a matter of 'git gud'er. click if you have to.

The second one is being guised under the conplaint of 'theyre upscaling the event'. If an event is upscaled by the time of its Start, where it counts everything INCLUDING EVERY SPECK THAT HAPPENS TO TRAVEL THROUGH IT AT THAT VERY MOMENT, then whether or not they leave or stay dead won't matter, why are you caring.

When we're talking about leechers, we have to talk about the deliberate leechers, the ones that deliberate go, 'ok i tagged it, time to tab out and watch a dog video or something'. It is extremely unfair to lump in those players with actual RL matters that crop up, those who are new and unfamiliar with the community's etiquette (at which point why don't you inform them if youre so bothered with how often it occurs?), and of course... one that i don't see a lot of people mentioning... the D/Ced and terribly lagging sack of unfortunates whose graphic card keels over dwhen facing the flaming pillars of oh gods what the hells is that. Or, of course, just ppl who arent even considered mediocre players.

But see, you can't punish people for being 'bad'. The game's been out too long enough for things to even consider a drastic (yea, drastic?, because you are affecting everyone rather than the target probematics) change like this. And, if we're talking etiquette here, the views are too opposing. You have people who say 'wp, backing,' when they die and they will. You have people who haven't thought of it or cared to think because the act of 'leeching' rarely comes up and those presences are insignificant let alone obstructive. There are those that get accussed of leechhing when they participated 95% and made 80% of that even possible, but get hard-defeated by the 15% mark, why should they be made to feel they should be punished?

No, to the fee.No, to the forced teleport.

I do think letting every character set up a personal WP would be nice. One that lasts for 1hr and has maybe a 30m cd, at which point a new one set up would override the older one. As someone said, travel time is the main bane and source of anxiety to a lot of people.

[Tachenon.5270]

When a player stops actively participating in an event long enough to instruct 'dead' players to waypoint (auto-attacking while otherwise occupied is barely one step removed from botting and should not be considered 'active' participation), he or she causes a momentary but potentially disastrous loss of DPS/support, which could lead to the failure of the event, which would negatively impact all involved, dead or alive. Therefore, a player choosing to cease active participation in order to instruct others in proper event etiquette, thereby becoming inactive while still being present and thereby causing the event to scale upwards to a potentially unmanageable degree, should be penalized not only with the same 'inactive scaling' fee proposed for 'dead' players, but also with a 'who died and made you the boss' fee, as they are most likely not the actual boss of anyone there.

[Zacchary.6183]

@Tachenon.5270 said:When a player stops actively participating in an event long enough to instruct 'dead' players to waypoint (auto-attacking while otherwise occupied is barely one step removed from botting and should not be considered 'active' participation), he or she causes a momentary but potentially disastrous loss of DPS/support, which could lead to the failure of the event, which would negatively impact all involved, dead or alive. Therefore, a player choosing to cease active participation in order to instruct others in proper event etiquette, thereby becoming inactive while still being present and thereby causing the event to scale upwards to a potentially unmanageable degree, should be penalized not only with the same 'inactive scaling' fee proposed for 'dead' players, but also with a 'who died and made you the boss' fee, as they are most likely not the actual boss of anyone there.

Yes. Because hitting enter, typing "dead pls wp", and hitting enter again takes way too long to type to justify the dps loss.

[Deepcuts.9740]

I am sick and tired of dead people scaling up the events and leaching. Maybe that's just me, but this kind of behavior reminds me too much of how real life humans act and I just can't stand lechers.

1st thing: eliminate WP taxThen:

Event area:-move inactive fully dead players to the closest WP after 60 seconds and remove participationif player teleported manually, keep participation.Problem solved 99%. Remains that 1% (maybe more) where some events are actually right on top of a WP.

Non event area:-nothing changes. Maybe a stray dog appears and mistakes the corpse for a car's wheel cap.

[Cragga the Eighty Third.60]

Okay, let me see if I understand.

Someone who has been fighting the boss for twenty minutes and has rezzed ten or twenty or thirty people during the battle dies...and because they don't waypoint instead of hoping for assistance, they are a selfish leech who is ruining everyone else's game.

OMG, something must be done about this!!!!! Maybe Trump can do a tweet.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Please make it a poll so I can vote against it.There are good reasons not to waypoint out, including having no waypoints close to the action making it impossible to get back before the dynamic event is over.I HAVE waypointed out sometimes, just to get punished by no longer participating in event X.

[Mahou.3924]

@Deepcuts.9740 said:I am sick and tired of dead people scaling up the events and leaching. Maybe that's just me, but this kind of behavior reminds me too much of how real life humans act and I just can't stand lechers.

1st thing: eliminate WP taxThen:

Event area:-move inactive fully dead players to the closest WP after 60 seconds and remove participationif player teleported manually, keep participation.Problem solved 99%. Remains that 1% (maybe more) where some events are actually right on top of a WP.

Non event area:-nothing changes. Maybe a stray dog appears and mistakes the corpse for a car's wheel cap.

Strange, where I live there are no "dead" people who would be able to scale up events, unless you are talking about their furneral. Otherwise, this would be pretty macabre and/or grotesque.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

@Mahou.3924 said:

@Deepcuts.9740 said:I am sick and tired of dead people scaling up the events and leaching. Maybe that's just me, but this kind of behavior reminds me too much of how real life humans act and I just can't stand lechers.

1st thing:

eliminate WP tax

Then:

Event area:-move inactive fully dead players to the closest WP after 60 seconds and remove participation

if player teleported manually, keep participation.Problem solved 99%. Remains that 1% (maybe more) where some events are actually right on top of a WP.

Non event area:-nothing changes. Maybe a stray dog appears and mistakes the corpse for a car's wheel cap.

Strange, where I live there are no "dead" people who would be able to scale up events, unless you are talking about their furneral. Otherwise, this would be pretty macabre and/or grotesque.

This seems accurate. The amount of aggro you can get during a wake can be hectic. It upscales even more the more people are there to view the body. That's why usually during the burial it's not as bad because not too many want to go to the cemetery and rather the viewing to see the dead one last time.

Don't mind me, I'm not normal.

[Majic.4801]

This looks like an excellent way to replace one problem with several other worse problems.

What could possibly go wrong?

[Bridget Morrigan.1752]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

It's about getting killed during events not getting killed anywhere so this is not an issue.

I don't think this is practical, from a programming, business and gameplay philosophy standpoint. How close is close enough to an event to be autorevived and forced to pay the WP cost? If I have a friend that's on their way to res me but they're in the loading screen or lagged out or something? What if I'm near the event but haven't participated because I'm doing a nearby heart or HP or something? Or I fall off a cliff? What if I have participation in the event but barely noticed that I was participating (we've all gotten "surprise" event rewards). Or if I left because the commander was going to get everyone killed, but I'm in a party and my friends are going to come get me? What if I'm standing on the waypoint and an event spawns there while I'm on the phone and I get killed? It's bad enough to come back to find yourself naked, but should you also have paid extra money for that opportunity? How long of laying on the ground is actually too long? One minute? 30 seconds? Two minutes? Should it vary by event? Meta events only? Should ANet really spend their human resources on going in and analyzing events, individually or as a group, in order to determine the optimum time in each?

This is the kind of suggestion that is just going to cause more problems than it solves. Open world content carries a certain assumption of risk. One of those risks is that people might die around you and not use a waypoint and cause you a very mild inconvenience.

[Daddicus.6128]

Terrible idea. Instead, they should do the opposite: prevent waypointing during combat, as happens in all other game modes (except raiding? I don't raid, so I don't know).

We're heroes. Heroes don't leave their comrades behind in war. Period.

[Shirlias.8104]

A debuff which occour after a short time after you died could solve it ( a short time could be between 20 and 30 sec ).If you have the debuff you won't be elegible for the reward.

Or maybe they should set rewards like tequatl, splitting the boss health into phases.Then if you don't partecipate into a phase you won't be able to get the reward.

[TexZero.7910]

@Daddicus.6128 said:Terrible idea. Instead, they should do the opposite: prevent waypointing during combat, as happens in all other game modes (except raiding? I don't raid, so I don't know).

We're heroes. Heroes don't leave their comrades behind in war. Period.

Tell that to Snaff.

[Shirlias.8104]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Daddicus.6128 said:Terrible idea. Instead, they should do the opposite: prevent waypointing during combat, as happens in all other game modes (except raiding? I don't raid, so I don't know).

We're heroes. Heroes don't leave their comrades behind in war. Period.

Tell that to Snaff.

We have a winner

[Cyndercat.7615]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Omar Aschi Popp.7496 said:Why is it so problematic to ressurect dead players? Why aren't you doing it? Is 20 seconds of your time such a high price?

Yes it is. The question is 2s such a high price to use a waypoint and run back to a fight?

Actually it can be for new players. I know their wp costs arent as high but started a 2nd account, hit 80 easily (so full wp cost) and had a total of about 40silver at times until I reached the point where I was participating in the money making content. Also ive reached as low as 4silver on my main after buying things during limited time sales and died trying to do metas to get some gold.

Not saying it happens often but it can be an issue for extremely poor players. Whats your suggestion if you literally only have 2 silver left?

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

If any of you see me on the battlefield, know this; you will be rezzed!

Call out to me and I will rub you!

[Joxer.6024]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Joxer.6024 said:Just don't rez em, keep pew-pewing and move on? That to tuff? :#

If you'd read the thread you'd know that this isn't possible. Dead players cause events to fail and that's the problem. A random player that has some RL issues wouldn't be a problem, it's when half the squad wipes and refuses to use a waypoint when the boss is at 80% that is the problem.Nobody even cares if someone dies at Shadow Behemoth. But if half the ranged squad is dead at Tequatl it means failure.

Same with Shatt, and the WP is RIGHT THERE! So whats the fix? There isn't one because people will be what they will be, period. That's why I said what I said.....if it fails, it fails, move on, try again later. People being lazy shits isn't going to change and ANET cant "design" that. It is what it is sadly. :/

[Deepcuts.9740]

A solution is not easy to find for this one, but I imagine people totally against the idea that something must be done are the ones laying on the floor at events such as Dragon Stand for the entire battle.Leeches usually scream loudest when you tell them to WP.

[ethanzephyr.7298]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Zeefa.3915 said:Depending on the location it may be more than just "10 seconds". Also I only agree that asking for people to wp is ok at

some

events. It is

not

always the solution, in every situation.

Opening your map, getting to a waypoint, and clicking on it should take about the same amount of time regardless of the map you are on.Of course it depends on the event, a random event, even a group event won't be affected by a dead player, and in that case chances are you will get a revive anyway.World bosses are the real the problem, or other legendary boss fights, especially time sensitive fights.

This falls apart in Heart of Maguuma, where you can get slaughtered by an Arrowhead before you fully load in after using a waypoint. Not every waypoint is safe.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Xeshirem.5038 said:To be frank, neither would I personally nor encourage anyone else to WP out when the boss/event/whatever reaches 15% if it takes longer than 10 seconds to return.

Two really big issues to the majority of these proposals is that 1. they're a blanket for a minority, and 2. a lot of it would be prevented if more of the genuinely prone-to-be-defeated-often would just 'git gud' as they say, except they won't in time since they are, currently, the problem being talked about.

I only really see two viable reasons brought up on why these dead people are an issue for everyone else:

1. their bodies share the button for interacting with Literally Everything Oh Gods Why Is There Only One Button For This
2. 'it's unfair imo how they are getting rewards for doing monumentally less work than me'

The first one is a legit concern as it obstructs the speed of actions and gameplay. There's a difference between misclicking between a Dead there and a Downed right next to each other vs. trying to pick of the bundle/ice bow/fiery greatsword/whatever underneath the fool's body and needing to do so in split seconds. In this case, I am referring to the latter. the former is just a matter of 'git gud'er. click if you have to.

The second one is being guised under the conplaint of 'theyre upscaling the event'. If an event is upscaled by the time of its Start, where it counts everything INCLUDING EVERY SPECK THAT HAPPENS TO TRAVEL THROUGH IT AT THAT VERY MOMENT, then whether or not they leave or stay dead won't matter, why are you caring.

When we're talking about leechers, we have to talk about the deliberate leechers, the ones that deliberate go, 'ok i tagged it, time to tab out and watch a dog video or something'. It is extremely unfair to lump in those players with actual RL matters that crop up, those who are new and unfamiliar with the community's etiquette (at which point why don't you inform them if youre so bothered with how often it occurs?), and of course... one that i don't see a lot of people mentioning... the D/Ced and terribly lagging sack of unfortunates whose graphic card keels over dwhen facing the flaming pillars of oh gods what the hells is that. Or, of course, just ppl who arent even considered mediocre players.

But see, you can't punish people for being 'bad'. The game's been out too long enough for things to even consider a drastic (yea, drastic?, because you are affecting everyone rather than the target probematics) change like this. And, if we're talking etiquette here, the views are too opposing. You have people who say 'wp, backing,' when they die and they will. You have people who haven't thought of it or cared to think because the act of 'leeching' rarely comes up and those presences are insignificant let alone obstructive. There are those that get accussed of leechhing when they participated 95% and made 80% of that even possible, but get hard-defeated by the 15% mark, why should they be made to feel they should be punished?

No, to the fee.No, to the forced teleport.

I do think letting every character set up a personal WP would be nice. One that lasts for 1hr and has maybe a 30m cd, at which point a new one set up would override the older one. As someone said, travel time is the main bane and source of anxiety to a lot of people.

But the thing is, this proposal does not "punish" the new players, or the "players with real life issues." It is not saying "you are being a bad person, so where is a whap on the head." Instead, it is saying "you have died. You are no longer contributing to this event, and therefore do not belong here. If you didn't know that, now you do. So we're going to WP you away, where you won't be a bother to these other players that are still progressing the event. If you'd really like to stay, then you have the option of paying a small fee and be able to stay here, entirely up to you."

How is that "punishing" anyone?

[Ohoni.6057]

@TheQuickFox.3826 said:Please make it a poll so I can vote against it.There are good reasons not to waypoint out, including having no waypoints close to the action making it impossible to get back before the dynamic event is over.I HAVE waypointed out sometimes, just to get punished by no longer participating in event X.

This is why the system would have two safety mechanism. First, it wouldn't kick in AT ALL until thirty seconds have passed, so if the boss was "almost dead" when you died, then you'd be fine, and second, if you really wanted to stay, you could justy pay the fee, which should not be so large that it would bankrupt anyone to pay it, it would just be enough that "wait for a rez" is no longer 100% better for you than WPing and running back. It's putting those two choices in balances so that players can reasonably decide which one better suits their current circumstances, rather than forcing "WPing and running back" into being a 100% altruistic and potentially self-sacrificing choice.

[Cuddy.6247]

I seem to be missing what in the open world is so difficult that dead players are such an inconvenience that you bother to even take note...

[Ohoni.6057]

@Bridget Morrigan.1752 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

It's about getting killed during events not getting killed anywhere so this is not an issue.

I don't think this is practical, from a programming, business and gameplay philosophy standpoint. How close is close enough to an event to be autorevived and forced to pay the WP cost?

It would not be related to any events. It would just be a base component of the game at all times, all locations.

If I have a friend that's on their way to res me but they're in the loading screen or lagged out or something?

Then they would probably take more than 30 seconds to get to you, in which case you could choose to either be WPed at the nearest WP, or pay the negligible fee to stay put and wait for them, your choice.

What if I'm near the event but haven't participated because I'm doing a nearby heart or HP or something? Or I fall off a cliff? What if I have participation in the event but barely noticed that I was participating (we've all gotten "surprise" event rewards). Or if I left because the commander was going to get everyone killed, but I'm in a party and my friends are going to come get me? What if I'm standing on the waypoint and an event spawns there while I'm on the phone and I get killed?

If you died, then after thirty seconds it would bring up a prompt and either you would be auto-WPed to the nearest WP, or you could click to pay the fee. Assuming you were completely AFK at the time, you would miss the prompt and just be WPed. It's basically not a good idea to go AFK when near a potentially hostile area for too long.

It's bad enough to come back to find yourself naked, but should you also have paid extra money for that opportunity?

You would not have to pay any extra money, only the standard WP fee would be deducted.

How long of laying on the ground is actually too long? One minute? 30 seconds? Two minutes? Should it vary by event? Meta events only? Should ANet really spend their human resources on going in and analyzing events, individually or as a group, in order to determine the optimum time in each?

I say thirty seconds, others around here say a minute would be fine, but I think that's a bit long to have people lying around.

This is the kind of suggestion that is just going to cause more problems than it solves. Open world content carries a certain assumption of risk. One of those risks is that people might die around you and not use a waypoint and cause you a very mild inconvenience.

OR the risk that if you place yourself into a dangerous situation and die, you might have to pay the WP fee. Either one. The latter case is one where YOU are causing the problem, and YOU are the one paying for it, whereas the former case you cite is one where YOU are causing the problem and OTHERS are forced to pay for it. Which do you believe is more fair?

[Ohoni.6057]

@zombyturtle.5980 said:Not saying it happens often but it can be an issue for extremely poor players. Whats your suggestion if you literally only have 2 silver left?

That's kind of a separate issue, since it's a problem that already exists in the current game, but if ANet wanted to solve it, I could see them having a "grace phase" in the WP system in which if you had less than, say, 10s in your player account when you died, it would not charge a fee to WP you. Yes, players could exploit that by keeping themselves non-liquid, but honestly I don't think most players would bother for how limited the benefit is verses the hassle of having to constantly transfer resources around.