Post EoD Class Content

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Once EoD launches and the normal development cycle starts again, I really think we need anet to go over the core classes and buff/rework under-performing traits and utility skills. Many classes like warrior & elementalist dont ever use around half their utility skills, and several traitlines only have very niche uses.

Elite specs are nice, but its not worth the neglect core specs have been seeing for the last several years. I honestly think that we really dont need more than 3 sets, any future work should just introduce new traitlines, new weapons, new utilities for the core classes.

[Mell.4873]

I do not know much about warrior but I believe if you buffed the core advantage underperformed classes like Elementalist have then you would fix the problem. 

Elementalist for example had combo fields and auras, buff those and you will balance the core class. 

[Obtena.7952]

Actually, I think the opposite. I believe it's both unlikely and inappropriate to focus on core improvements when EoD launches. Maybe if there are unintended trait interactions ... sure, fix those. Let's just stop pretending that 'another round' of core trait changes will do anything. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

18 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually, I think the opposite. I believe it's both unlikely and inappropriate to focus on core improvements when EoD launches. Maybe if there are unintended trait interactions ... sure, fix those. Let's just stop pretending that 'another round' of core trait changes will do anything. 

2/3 of a class is the core abilities. Neglecting old traitlines and abilities hurts everything, including elite specs.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

12 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

2/3 of a class is the core abilities. Neglecting old traitlines and abilities hurts everything, including elite specs.

Don't feed Obtena.

You're right. Core needs touching up across the board on all the classes, and I believe they are doing that anyway. They mentioned a balance pass is going to happen at least in regard to WvW, so I can't fathom that it won't touch on everything if they feel it is needed.

[Infusion.7149]

Lol Obtena posts for necromancer buffs such as for Blood Bank. If you had asked for necro buffs in your topic they wouldn't be so mad 😜

In order of priority I would say after EOD launches it should be the following:

1. EOD specs should be not grossly OP (45K+ DPS catalyst on small hitbox while putting out quickness,  51K+ specter, 400K in one hit bladesworn in PvE, 45K+ harbinger in beta 1, etc.) or completely useless (why is full charge dragon trigger less damage than a core burst in PVP/WVW?), so any outstanding issues should be fixed.  In essence, using today's numbers as baseline they should be between 25-30K DPS while providing some boons such as alacrity/quickness and 35K-40K DPS as full PVE DPS. Quickness in particular (on harbinger/catalyst , and to a lesser extent specter) needs to be carefully weighed as due to aftercast some builds may increase auto-attack DPS by 45% (which is the bare minimum someone can do unless they are afk) and some may be far less on the order of ~30%. Anything made should have the question, what is the counterplay?

2. In competitive modes all 300s traits should be changed, it's way overdue.

3. In competitive modes any unsplit skills should be reevaluated (not necessarily nerfed) and any outstanding oddities addressed. For example, someone brought up toolkit not being split for PVP and grenade barrage uses PVE coefficients in WVW (another thread from past few months). There's probably more skills that are unsplit such as Vengeful Hammers on revenant or whatnot. Ideally skills split in Feb 2020 competitive split should not be split 3 ways, only between PVE and PVP/WVW.

4. Any core skills/traits that literally nobody uses could be looked at. There's niche skills that you would see used somewhere , for example on mesmer people might say Null Field is useless in PVE but it's often used in WVW , PVE players might never use Sight Beyond Sight although people slot it temporarily on skillbar to sweep keeps in WVW, or a WVW player might say that Shattering Blow is bad on Berserker even if it is part of condi BS build. PVE+WVW players may say Corrupt Boon is "useless" even though it is common on PVP core necro. That is what I mean by doesn't see use anywhere.

5. Skills/traits that people solely use to afk farm , turrets, or minions might need to be changed, such as Replenishing Despair on revenant.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

2/3 of a class is the core abilities. Neglecting old traitlines and abilities hurts everything, including elite specs.

Sure, but those traits have 9 years of development under their belt and EoD espece traits .. about 6 months, barely play tested even when EoD is released. Clearly, one of those things will need way more polish than the other. None of that change what I said anyways. Again, don't pretend another round of core trait balancing is the silver bullet to fixing everything people think is wrong with classes. It's not. It never has. You aren't going to get the result you are imagining even if they did. 

Honestly ... it's bad optics to release especs and not focus on the espec traits as soon as they can after release.  People aren't going to forget they shelled out some dollars on these new especs and they are going to expect attention there and reasonably so ... that's Anet's new release. It's been a while but ... I don't recall Anet rushing out to 'tweak' core traits after HoT and PoF either and I can't imagine it makes any sense to do that for EoD. 

As much as you think it's needed, it's a solution for only one thing ... changing classes so they work how Anet wants them to work. Pretty sure that's not the thing you want. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

33 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, but those traits have 9 years of development under their belt

Except many of them dont, and havent been touched since before PoF or earlier. Obviously the EoD specs will need a lot of work too, but forgetting about the core classes only makes balance worse in the long run.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

9 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Lol Obtena posts for necromancer buffs such as for Blood Bank. If you had asked for necro buffs in your topic they wouldn't be so mad 😜

In order of priority I would say after EOD launches it should be the following:

1. EOD specs should be not grossly OP (45K+ DPS catalyst on small hitbox while putting out quickness,  51K+ specter, 400K in one hit bladesworn in PvE, 45K+ harbinger in beta 1, etc.) or completely useless (why is full charge dragon trigger less damage than a core burst in PVP/WVW?), so any outstanding issues should be fixed.  In essence, using today's numbers as baseline they should be between 25-30K DPS while providing some boons such as alacrity/quickness and 35K-40K DPS as full PVE DPS. Quickness in particular (on harbinger/catalyst , and to a lesser extent specter) needs to be carefully weighed as due to aftercast some builds may increase auto-attack DPS by 45% (which is the bare minimum someone can do unless they are afk) and some may be far less on the order of ~30%. Anything made should have the question, what is the counterplay?

2. In competitive modes all 300s traits should be changed, it's way overdue.

3. In competitive modes any unsplit skills should be reevaluated (not necessarily nerfed) and any outstanding oddities addressed. For example, someone brought up toolkit not being split for PVP and grenade barrage uses PVE coefficients in WVW (another thread from past few months). There's probably more skills that are unsplit such as Vengeful Hammers on revenant or whatnot. Ideally skills split in Feb 2020 competitive split should not be split 3 ways, only between PVE and PVP/WVW.

4. Any core skills/traits that literally nobody uses could be looked at. There's niche skills that you would see used somewhere , for example on mesmer people might say Null Field is useless in PVE but it's often used in WVW , PVE players might never use Sight Beyond Sight although people slot it temporarily on skillbar to sweep keeps in WVW, or a WVW player might say that Shattering Blow is bad on Berserker even if it is part of condi BS build. PVE+WVW players may say Corrupt Boon is "useless" even though it is common on PVP core necro. That is what I mean by doesn't see use anywhere.

5. Skills/traits that people solely use to afk farm , turrets, or minions might need to be changed, such as Replenishing Despair on revenant.

1 - They are doing that now so I'm not worried about that. I am worried that they won't listen to all of our feedback though and leave a few especs that are unplayable in some game modes.

2 - Way overdo.

3 - Just yet again further evidence that Feb2020 was a botched job. Most of Warrior sword was untouched for instance, but how often do you see that run for it's power damage? Several of it's skills are as powerful as a T3 Eviscerate, but the sword/sword bar is not good enough to leverage those numbers. Just because a skill did not get touched during Feb2020 doesn't mean it needs to be now.
What I'd prefer them to do is bring up underperforming weapons, traits, and skills first, then tackle anything that is explicitly OP. That and WvW and PvP are very different beasts and should not be the same split on everything.

4 - Skills/traits can be tweaked to make them more attractive for use in game modes that see them used very little. I bring corrupt boon on my reaper FWIW. Fcks up most builds pretty hard. I've juggled spellbreakers with it before when they pop their stability.

5 - That one will be very tricky to do without heavily nerfing the mobs in the areas in question, or heavily nerfing skills into the dust. For Rev its the fact that granting a boon gives credit for events and Herald can give out the boons for free with no action other than sitting at the waiting spot.

[Obtena.7952]

On 12/22/2021 at 11:54 PM, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Except many of them dont, and havent been touched since before PoF or earlier. Obviously the EoD specs will need a lot of work too, but forgetting about the core classes only makes balance worse in the long run.

ALL of the core traits have 9 years of development opportunity (even if they haven't been changed) except Rev with 7. No one has forgotten about core classes ... Anet has been changing them for 9 years. You see that Anet hasn't touched traits as a problem that somehow they are overlooked. That's not necessarily the correct interpretation. The reality is that Anet probably doesn't think they need change or that changes they need aren't that important. 

Still, the focus will not be core traits when EoD is released, unless those core traits create situations where interactions with EoD Especs are OPed, just like it wasn't for HoT and PoF, so set your expectations accordingly. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[mungozen.2379]

I imagine we will see several iterations of updates/changes to core and eSpec trait lines at EoD launch and within 6 months of launch. This may come over as focused changes to PvP and WvW first then PvE later, but it should happen. 
 

The meta for all game modes will shift, and in some modes some builds/specs (not just the new eSpecs) will be broken good or broken bad.  We know they will tone down the outliers that are too powerful, and I hope they tune up the underperformers. 
 

That said, we know what Anet has done historically, which means we will get some fixes/changes/updates to Core traits, but most likely only to those builds/traits that are overpowered. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Mungo Zen.9364

[Jski.6180]

The core classes are in some of the worst state as can be. This is due to core classes getting nerfed to balance the elite spec. There is good chase that we will see another round of nerfs to the core classes for EoD elite spec.

My real question is are we going to get "regular" updates after EoD and if the word regular means any thing coming form anet. At this point regular is code for at least a year + time lag between major updates. We are nearing 3 years from the last big update the EoD excuse has lost all meaning if they are going to say thing same thing as they said in the past.

[Ryou.2398]

On 12/22/2021 at 7:58 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually, I think the opposite. I believe it's both unlikely and inappropriate to focus on core improvements when EoD launches. Maybe if there are unintended trait interactions ... sure, fix those. Let's just stop pretending that 'another round' of core trait changes will do anything. 

That is some serious reaching damage control there its just absurd.

[Ryou.2398]

On 12/23/2021 at 10:34 PM, Jski.6180 said:

The core classes are in some of the worst state as can be. This is due to core classes getting nerfed to balance the elite spec. There is good chase that we will see another round of nerfs to the core classes for EoD elite spec.

My real question is are we going to get "regular" updates after EoD and if the word regular means any thing coming form anet. At this point regular is code for at least a year + time lag between major updates. We are nearing 3 years from the last big update the EoD excuse has lost all meaning if they are going to say thing same thing as they said in the past.

Anyone denying it is straight up lying, strange isnt it?

[Obtena.7952]

16 hours ago, Ryou.2398 said:

That is some serious reaching damage control there its just absurd.

That doesn't make sense; there isn't anything "damage control" about making an inference to what will likely happen for EoD based on what has happened for HoT or PoF. I'm not the one pretending another core balancing round is a fix for balance when numerous dozens of previous core trait changes haven't fixed balancing either. I'm not the one ignoring how bad the optics of focusing on core content changes would be when EoD is released. 

The discussion here that you seem to have missed isn't about IF core changes are needed, it's when they are revisited. 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Core trait lines, some weapon sets and underwater combat.

[Ryou.2398]

14 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense; there isn't anything "damage control" about making an inference to what will likely happen for EoD based on what has happened for HoT or PoF. I'm not the one pretending another core balancing round is a fix for balance when numerous dozens of previous core trait changes haven't fixed balancing either. I'm not the one ignoring how bad the optics of focusing on core content changes would be when EoD is released. 

The discussion here that you seem to have missed isn't about IF core changes are needed, it's when they are revisited. 

Uh huh sure.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

On 12/23/2021 at 10:01 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

ALL of the core traits have 9 years of development opportunity (even if they haven't been changed) except Rev with 7. No one has forgotten about core classes ... Anet has been changing them for 9 years. You see that Anet hasn't touched traits as a problem that somehow they are overlooked. That's not necessarily the correct interpretation. The reality is that Anet probably doesn't think they need change or that changes they need aren't that important. 

Still, the focus will not be core traits when EoD is released, unless those core traits create situations where interactions with EoD Especs are OPed, just like it wasn't for HoT and PoF, so set your expectations accordingly. 

I guess abilities like conjure flame axe and on my mark are in a great place and seeing use in all types of content because they havent been touched in over 5 years.

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

I guess abilities like conjure flame axe and on my mark are in a great place and seeing use in all types of content because they havent been touched in over 5 years.

Maybe ... only Anet knows if they are.  I see no reason for you to second guess that just to argue with people. I mean, skills and traits not being touched for 5 years isn't really relevant here because you don't know if they would get changed in any specific patch anyways. Even if they did, it's certainly not a reason for Anet to prioritize changes to core when EoD is released. For all you know, those 'untouched' traits/skills aren't being changed because they work how Anet wants them to work. 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

only Anet knows if they are. 

😭🤣😂

[anbujackson.9564]

On 12/23/2021 at 4:56 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

 
1. EOD specs should be not grossly OP (45K+ DPS catalyst on small hitbox while putting out quickness,  51K+ specter, 400K in one hit bladesworn in PvE, 45K+ harbinger in beta 1, etc.) or completely useless (why is full charge dragon trigger less damage than a core burst in PVP/WVW?), so any outstanding issues should be fixed.  In essence, using today's numbers as baseline they should be between 25-30K DPS while providing some boons such as alacrity/quickness and 35K-40K DPS as full PVE DPS. Quickness in particular (on harbinger/catalyst , and to a lesser extent specter) needs to be carefully weighed as due to aftercast some builds may increase auto-attack DPS by 45% (which is the bare minimum someone can do unless they are afk) and some may be far less on the order of ~30%. Anything made should have the question, what is the counterplay?

Please, just no. 40k is too much damage in the content of this game. Just like 30k for a hybrid is NOT ok. Your numbers tell me that you think that the state of the game right now (excluding EoD stuff) is 90%+ fine (correct me if im wrong).

Hybrid dps: 20-25 and full dps 30-35 ( ideally the middle for both so like 23 and 33)

We dont need more or as much as we do now, we really dont. I'm so sick of the powercreep in this game. People should learn stuff, not bruteforce or cheese it.

Happy new year btw.

Edited December 31, 2021 by anbujackson.9564

[Infusion.7149]

16 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Please, just no. 40k is too much damage in the content of this game. Just like 30k for a hybrid is NOT ok. Your numbers tell me that you think that the state of the game right now (excluding EoD stuff) is 90%+ fine (correct me if im wrong).

Hybrid dps: 20-25 and full dps 30-35 ( ideally the middle for both so like 23 and 33)

We dont need more or as much as we do now, we really dont. I'm so sick of the powercreep in this game. People should learn stuff, not bruteforce or cheese it.

Happy new year btw.

?
It depends on which boons they are.

Also unless you want every spec over 35K to be nerfed there isn't enough of a gap from 20-25 and 30-35 to make bringing DPS classes worth it. Quickness is sometimes 45% more damage for autoattacking alone depending on how much of the time is aftercast vs activation.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Tails.9372]

On 12/23/2021 at 1:46 AM, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

buff/rework under-performing traits and utility skills

Not just traits and utility skills, weapon skills and class mechanics as well.

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 12/23/2021 at 10:01 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

ALL of the core traits have 9 years of development opportunity. 

Yeah, and MLM's have the "opportunity" to make me rich.  We all know this is a BS statement and your literary pedantry which is usually at least somewhat based on reality is just bad faith here.

 

They've had nine years of "opportunity" to develop them doing what the OP is suggesting, and failed to do so in any meaningful way.

[anbujackson.9564]

7 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

?
It depends on which boons they are.

Also unless you want every spec over 35K to be nerfed there isn't enough of a gap from 20-25 and 30-35 to make bringing DPS classes worth it. Quickness is sometimes 45% more damage for autoattacking alone depending on how much of the time is aftercast vs activation.

Sorry but I dont get your point. These are dps numbers (benchmark), the absolute difference is literally the same to your numbers,  the % difference is even higher then (30-40k = 33%, 25-35k = 40 %) which doesnt matter that much because those dps are benchmark dps numbers. Why should it matter how much of a dps increase quickness is then since its included anyway? By that logic you wouldnt run a 34k reaper when a QFB does like 30k. 

But sure lower the hybrid dps further then if the gap seems not high enough for you.