The Core trait holding the Untamed back

[anduriell.6280]

12 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Untamed doesn't have autocast pet skills , are you saying even autoattack damage is unaffected?

That is correct it has nothing to do with how you cast the pet skills it is related to how animations work for pets. Apparently quickness breaks the animations. So it is not only that the pets are bugged, quickness is disabled for those pets by Anet devs. 

9 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

First beta (before buffs and changes) = 2K Jacaranda vs 4.3K competition bench
Given that you aren't forced to use a particular pet I would say that is not the primary issue. Full DPS condi mech with shift signet currently outputs 7K from the Mech, where the log includes the active mech commands as part of the Mech.

The issue with the pets is not the damage itself, It is how the pets can not connect with mobile targets, any mobile target. There are plenty of videos where you see a player moving around and the pet cannot connect any attack.That goes for the mobile golems as well.

Fun fact: A pet moa transformed in a moa by the mesmer signet is more effective/connect more attacks than the moa pet by itself. I am still asking myself how is that possible and left uncheck for so long.

That's why smokescale is being used although the pet has been nuttered so much it almost does no damage (200-300 no crit damage), it is the only pet who can somehow almost keep up with the target. 

The pet might do 45K by itself but if it can not connect any of it's attacks the effective damage is 0. Please do not take as reference those  benchmarks in sponge immobile targets as an example of "working pets". It's like reading the traits and skills description and thinking "wow ranger is so busted".... The issue with pets is not in raids/strikes, is the the 2/3 of the game modes this game has: PvP and WvW. 

In PvE the issue was the pet "stealing" boons and heals from other players. But that was solved very long time ago, at least for the spirits it was. Aside from another super annoying issue that is  core/druid/untamed can not perma-stow the pet, which causes a lot of problems in different scenarios in PvE, WvW and PvP. 

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Infusion.7149]

8 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

That is correct it has nothing to do with how you cast the pet skills it is related to how animations work for pets. Apparently quickness breaks the animations. So it is not only that the pets are bugged, quickness is disabled for those pets by Anet devs. 

The issue with the pets is not the damage itself, It is how the pets can not connect with mobile targets, any mobile target. There are plenty of videos where you see a player moving around and the pet cannot connect any attack.That goes for the mobile golems as well.

Fun fact: A pet moa transformed in a moa by the mesmer signet is more effective/connect more attacks than the moa pet by itself. I am still asking myself how is that possible and left uncheck for so long.

That's why smokescale is being used although the pet has been nuttered so much it almost does no damage (200-300 no crit damage), it is the only pet who can somehow almost keep up with the target. 

The pet might do 45K by itself but if it can not connect any of it's attacks the effective damage is 0. Please do not take as reference those  benchmarks in sponge immobile targets as an example of "working pets". It's like reading the traits and skills description and thinking "wow ranger is so busted".... The issue with pets is not in raids/strikes, is the the 2/3 of the game modes this game has: PvP and WvW. 

In PvE the issue was the pet "stealing" boons and heals from other players. But that was solved very long time ago, at least for the spirits it was. Aside from another super annoying issue that is  core/druid/untamed can not perma-stow the pet, which causes a lot of problems in different scenarios in PvE, WvW and PvP. 

 

How is that anything to do with a core trait then?

It should be categorized as a bug if some pets are not acting normally with quickness once autocast skills are disabled as on untamed.

Also it is ironic that you say PVP as core ranger is more or less meta ranger , with Maul interaction a primary factor.

Edited December 31, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[FarmBotXD.1430]

12 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

How is that anything to do with a core trait then?

It should be categorized as a bug if some pets are not acting normally with quickness once autocast skills are disabled as on untamed.

Also it is ironic that you say PVP as core ranger is more or less meta ranger , with Maul interaction a primary factor.

I think quickness in general doesnt do much for most pet skills, which is kind off pathetic when you think about it as this bug must have been in the game since it has been created.

[anduriell.6280]

4 hours ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

I think quickness in general doesnt do much for most pet skills, which is kind off pathetic when you think about it as this bug must have been in the game since it has been created.

That was my point, it is not a bug but a decision made by the devs. It is not like the pets can not be affected by quickness, it is that quickness is disabled for those pets. 

Devs explained some time ago it has to do with the animation and quickness breaking them. So Anet devs need to rework all the pets animations before quickness is activated for them. It is not a bug sadly it is a feature. 

 

[Infusion.7149]

That doesn't change what I wrote whatsoever and isn't the topic anyway.
1. Untamed doesn't have autocast skills because you have to use them manually , meaning you would be saying autoattack is also buggy (stop calling this a feature)
2. You don't have to use a  buggy pet
3. We are getting new pets in EOD
4. More relevant to the topic is only offensive boons are relevant unless you think the pet will die in PVE as well, where I already illustrated that pets do have some quickness and might applications.
5. PVP/WVW efficacy is not just based on pet survivability and DPS outside of the bird/tiger type of gimmicky builds

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I like how an untamed thread about baseline'ing pet stats is immediately derailed into a 'perma prot' discussion.  No one cares about protection because you lose the ability to merge with the pet, and so when it is targeted and downed you lose half your class abilities.  So you are left running around with your 'unkillable' build...just do the world a favor and switch to Druid.  At least then you still have immob instead of zero.  

 

Anyway, here's the thing, unless they make untamed pet unkillable then the spec is lost.  There isn't enough damageless CC and wannabe boonstrip in the world to make up for all that you lose switching from Soulbeast.  And if they nerf soulbeast to compensate, then a lot of people will just stop playing.

 

 

[anduriell.6280]

19 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

That doesn't change what I wrote whatsoever and isn't the topic anyway.
1. Untamed doesn't have autocast skills because you have to use them manually , meaning you would be saying autoattack is also buggy (stop calling this a feature)

Just to end the conversation as I think you misunderstood me: It is a feature in a sense that is not caused by a accidental interaction between game systems as such a bug. It is a feature because it was a premeditated decision by Anet devs. 

I've been saying by the longest time (when the we had the old forums) that i would not mind to do the scavenger hunt for the pets again, but Anet needs to rework all the pets.
Otherwise you get what you see now: Ranger players only using 2 pets from the whole bunch. 

14 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

And if they nerf soulbeast to compensate, then a lot of people will just stop playing.

That is totally expected. And I am expecting Anet to try to pull  something like that because they won't be able to savage untamed without a lot of rework.

[Infusion.7149]

5 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Just to end the conversation as I think you misunderstood me: It is a feature in a sense that is not caused by a accidental interaction between game systems as such a bug. It is a feature because it was a premeditated decision by Anet devs. 

I've been saying by the longest time (when the we had the old forums) that i would not mind to do the scavenger hunt for the pets again, but Anet needs to rework all the pets.
Otherwise you get what you see now: Ranger players only using 2 pets from the whole bunch. 

That is totally expected. And I am expecting Anet to try to pull  something like that because they won't be able to savage untamed without a lot of rework.

People will use whatever pet is most effective for their build. Unless you mean exclusively in competitive modes, Iboga (druid, condi in confusion favored scenarios), Electric Wyvern (Druid CC), Jacaranda (druid extra heal), Brown Bear (Druid for condi clear), Warthog (Condi), Smokescale, Red Moa (power), and Bristleback (hybrid) all see use.

Even in competitive modes you see Jacaranda, birds of different types, Drakes, Smokescale, tigers, and other such pets.

I don't know why you assume Arenanet to be deliberately causing pets to be unplayable. Namely untamed doesn't have autocast pet skills other than autoattack.

[anduriell.6280]

13 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I don't know why you assume Arenanet to be deliberately causing pets to be unplayable. Namely untamed doesn't have autocast pet skills other than autoattack.

I am not assuming, this info came directly from them in this forums. Quickness is disabled in most of the pets because it does break the animations. I told you so in a couple of comments already. 

 

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, anduriell.6280 said:

I am not assuming, this info came directly from them in this forums. Quickness is disabled in most of the pets because it does break the animations. I told you so in a couple of comments already. 

 

You said the animations which implies the skills it autocasts

Untamed doesn't autocast other than autoattack

[anduriell.6280]

Just now, Infusion.7149 said:

You said the animations which implies the skills it autocasts

Untamed doesn't autocast other than autoattack

You are not reading what I am writing. do please read my posting instead having a look in random words along the comment. 

[Obtena.7952]

On 12/28/2021 at 1:25 PM, Beddo.1907 said:

Ok but why would you want to use so much resources for perma Prot.

Um ... because someone would want perma prot and be willing to use those resources to get it? I mean ... you think it's wildly abnormal for someone to do this?

ANYWAYS ... this one trait is certainly not holding anything back. 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[OGDeadHead.8326]

3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You said the animations which implies the skills it autocasts

Untamed doesn't autocast other than autoattack

 

To see how quickness affects different pets, simply go to the special forces area and try them out, with and without the quickness buff. If it works, there should be a dps increase.

According to the wiki, "Quickness will only increase the attack speed of regular attacks from devourer, spider, smokescale, bristleback or wyvern pets. On any other pet, quickness does not increase regular attack speed."

Edited January 3, 2022 by OGDeadHead.8326

[Infusion.7149]

8 hours ago, OGDeadHead.8326 said:

 

To see how quickness affects different pets, simply go to the special forces area and try them out, with and without the quickness buff. If it works, there should be a dps increase.

According to the wiki, "Quickness will only increase the attack speed of regular attacks from devourer, spider, smokescale, bristleback or wyvern pets. On any other pet, quickness does not increase regular attack speed."

Regular attacks is meaningless because unless it is specifically autoattacks untamed is different to core ranger/druid.

Also since it doesn't affect EVERY pet (key point) , it doesn't change what I wrote. Specifically any EOD pets are unlikely to have this "bug"/"feature" since people are more likely to use it with untamed.

[OGDeadHead.8326]

16 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Regular attacks is meaningless because unless it is specifically autoattacks untamed is different to core ranger/druid.

Also since it doesn't affect EVERY pet (key point) , it doesn't change what I wrote. Specifically any EOD pets are unlikely to have this "bug"/"feature" since people are more likely to use it with untamed.

 

I don't really understand what you are getting at, are you talking about the special attacks that all pets get when unleashed or what?

 

Point was that quickness for pets ONLY affects their autoattacks (Edit: with 'auto attacks', or  'regular attacks', I'm talking about the equivalent to our #1 weapon skills), and also that it ONLY works on the pets specified in my previous post.

As for any new pets coming with the expansion, and how they will work with quickness, we'll just have to wait and see, but I would think that quickness will work on them as well (on their regular attack), unless they belong to some family of the core pets (bear family, for example).

Edited January 4, 2022 by OGDeadHead.8326
Clarification

[Infusion.7149]

14 minutes ago, OGDeadHead.8326 said:

 

I don't really understand what you are getting at, are you talking about the special attacks that all pets get when unleashed or what?

 

Point was that quickness for pets ONLY affects their autoattacks, and also that it ONLY works on the pets specified in my previous post.

As for any new pets coming with the expansion, and how they will work with quickness, we'll just have to wait and see, but I would think that quickness will work on them as well (on their regular attack), unless they belong to some family of the core pets (bear family, for example).

If you call "regular attacks" the skills pets normally use , they don't use those on untamed.

Pretty sure the iboga works with quickness, otherwise +25 might and fury would not more than double DPS.

[OGDeadHead.8326]

2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you call "regular attacks" the skills pets normally use , they don't use those on untamed.

Pretty sure the iboga works with quickness, otherwise +25 might and fury would not more than double DPS.

 

What I refer to as their "regular attacks" are the pets equivalent to our #1 skill, slash for birds, bite for canines, slash for bears and so on.

I would assume that pets on the Untamed spec still use their #1 skills, unleashed or not.

 

As for the Iboga, I can't really say. According to the wiki, it doesn't get affected, but if I find the time I'll test it myself, with and without quickness.

[anduriell.6280]

17 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If you call "regular attacks" the skills pets normally use , they don't use those on untamed.
Pretty sure the iboga works with quickness, otherwise +25 might and fury would not more than double DPS.

You can triple that dps and still it will have trouble to connect the attacks. Even the spit venom thingy misses a lot of times because projectile speed. Dude stop it, you are derailing the thread I think on purpose already. 

9 minutes ago, OGDeadHead.8326 said:

As for the Iboga, I can't really say. According to the wiki, it doesn't get affected, but if I find the time I'll test it myself, with and without quickness.

It doesn't matter, the quickness thing is just one aspect. The iboga thingy is very unreliable with the spit thingies, the miss a lot of times because of the projectile speed, the same as the tree pet F2. 
If you don't trait it with BM the pet will not even be able to follow the target.... Without the minor Fortifying bond the pets won't have reliable access to swiftness either way. 

36 minutes ago, OGDeadHead.8326 said:

As for any new pets coming with the expansion, and how they will work with quickness, we'll just have to wait and see, but I would think that quickness will work on them as well (on their regular attack), unless they belong to some family of the core pets (bear family, for example).

I think new pets will be okeish, except the white tiger. Phoenix will probably use an wyvern variant and the other 2 seems to use new models. 

[Lazze.9870]

On 12/30/2021 at 9:23 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

Just a thought experiment, is it really necessary to copy EVERY boon just for untamed damage?

In pve and in pvp for general sidenoding? No.

For anything new, mainly wvw? Yes, because it's not just about damage, it's about survivability as well. Keeping 100 % prot uptime on your pet without sorting to selfish builds that prioritise self preservation over damage or group utility is impossible. Those builds have no place in a zerg, especially not on a class that is lagging behind as is. This also somewhat applies to pvp teamfighter build, especially if its intended use is to be a "bruiser" and assert presence on a node.

Zerg ranger needs a petless elite spec. Petless as in a non-targetable AI. It can still be there in some shape or form or whatever to preserve the animal theme, but not as an AI mechanic.

If soulbeast is the closest thing ranger will ever get, then there is no point talking about zerging. Soulbeast has a niche role for organised groups and guilds. Druid can offer the same in a different package. That's the best we'll ever get.

Untamed is this box of several good zerg tools, but sadly half of it is packed inside this horrible stain of a pet mechanic.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Lazze.9870

[The Boz.2038]

Could have made a norn-inspired spirits-themed "petless" ranger spec, with a ghostly pet that interacted with nothing, and instead was basically a spirit with a buff aura and a "buff more" active skill...

[Trejgon.9367]

28 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Could have made a norn-inspired spirits-themed "petless" ranger spec, with a ghostly pet that interacted with nothing, and instead was basically a spirit with a buff aura and a "buff more" active skill...

Something similar was part of my idea for Druid "tradeoff" rework that I may have never posted on forums 😉

The gist of it was that druid would exchange normal pets, for "celestial" pets, which would be basically a support equivalent for every pet, idea was not down on interactability (i.e. killability) of celestial pets, but it would have no direct offensive value. They would also try to stick close to the druid. Family skills for current families would get mapped to small support skills and F2 would be big support in theme of the actual pet being used as a "baseline"

Unfortunatelly for that idea, it would require to develop a support mirror for all the pets in-game and continue doing so for each new one, meaning that most likely it would take more resources than AN would be willing to spend on reworking druid 😕

[The Boz.2038]

6 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

Unfortunatelly for that idea, it would require to develop a support mirror for all the pets in-game and continue doing so for each new one, meaning that most likely it would take more resources than AN would be willing to spend on reworking druid

You could easily keep it to only two skills, F1 (based on family, ie "bear", "feline", etc.), F2 (based on archetype, ie "deadly", "stout", etc.)

But unkillable and unable to interact at all is key. Else you back to "pet permanently dead in WvW".
Perhaps the only interact would be "go there" and "come here", important for the pets that have an active skill that has an AoE. Example, "celestial phoenix, go to that downed ally and cast Phoenix Rebirth!".

[Trejgon.9367]

3 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

You could easily keep it to only two skills, F1 (based on family, ie "bear", "feline", etc.), F2 (based on archetype, ie "deadly", "stout", etc.)

Fair, I was most likely stuck too hard on the concept how to do it "right" to consider the option to simplify it.

4 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

But unkillable and unable to interact at all is key. Else you back to "pet permanently dead in WvW".

Fair

5 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Perhaps the only interact would be "go there" and "come here", important for the pets that have an active skill that has an AoE. Example, "celestial phoenix, go to that downed ally and cast Phoenix Rebirth!".

sooo ground targeted F2? 😉

But yeah personally I would love to see this as a druid rework more than a whole new espec.

[The Boz.2038]

Fs would be "instant, around the pet", so you don't get lag/unpredictible timings from mobility AI. Instead, you use the F3/4 for the precise positioning of the pet before you use your F1/2 with full timing control. 

Sure, could work as a druid rework. 

[anduriell.6280]

Anet has stated multiple times that ranger is to keep the pet. There is no petless plans , even on soulbeast they have focus a lot of effort into the merging / unmerging mechanic. Not that worked thou. 

If you are looking for a GW1 petless ranger I would think to look into other classes instead.