The Balance of Necro Lies In Mobility, and Other Oddly Implemented Mechanics

[Obliviscaris.6937]

1 hour ago, Morwath.9817 said:

Necro GS is the only GS in game without a leap

 

I know the thread isn't about Mesmer, so totally acknowledging this first and foremost, but this is an untrue statement – Mesmer greatsword has no leap either (or any mobility, so it's entire kit works against its-self). So let's not throw ourselves a pity party yet.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Obliviscaris.6937

[Morwath.9817]

4 minutes ago, Obliviscaris.6937 said:

 

I know the thread isn't about Mesmer, so totally acknowledging this first and foremost, but this is an untrue statement – Mesmer greatsword has no leap either (or any mobility, so it's entire kit works against its-self). So let's not throw ourselves a pity party yet.

 

Mesmers? In GW2? Maybe they were illusions all along? 

Serious note: Mesmer GS isn't melee weapon, thats why I've ignored it completly.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Morwath.9817

[Obliviscaris.6937]

19 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

Mesmers? In GW2? Maybe they were illusions all along? 

Serious note: Mesmer GS isn't melee weapon, thats why I've ignored it completly.

Hahaha true, Mesmers might as well be at this point.

(Also serious note though: Functionality wise re: mirror blade & shatters, a greatsword Mesmer has to be somehow in melee range to get full (or any) effectiveness out of Mind Wrack, it's just so counterintuitive and it's been poorly designed from day 1 of illusionary persona being baseline'd. I'd honestly love to have a Grasping Darkness like skill on the Mesmer greatsword to make rotations flow smoother, but I digress, I don't want to get off-track with the topic).

[Axl.8924]

8 hours ago, Obliviscaris.6937 said:

Hahaha true, Mesmers might as well be at this point.

(Also serious note though: Functionality wise re: mirror blade & shatters, a greatsword Mesmer has to be somehow in melee range to get full (or any) effectiveness out of Mind Wrack, it's just so counterintuitive and it's been poorly designed from day 1 of illusionary persona being baseline'd. I'd honestly love to have a Grasping Darkness like skill on the Mesmer greatsword to make rotations flow smoother, but I digress, I don't want to get off-track with the topic).

Yeah all you got in common with reaper is the boon rip and the vuln and a bit of cripple don't have that tasty second bar. Just imagine a chronomancer with a second health bar aye?

[Genesis.5169]

5 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

Yeah all you got in common with reaper is the boon rip and the vuln and a bit of cripple don't have that tasty second bar. Just imagine a chronomancer with a second health bar aye?

Its locked behind distor-
Wait nope..
Chrono doesn't actually have boon rip because you never actually melee with sword.
Nobody runs null field.
Nobody runs arcane thievery.
Nobody runs disenchanter.
No chrono gonna be in melee cause they gonna die in melee.
No chrono can contest a point like necro.
Everything from chrono is denied in one thoughtful dodge due to how chrono burst is supposed to work.

Only thing chrono has in common with necro is they both light armor classes.
Chrono is in the same category as firebrand which is the same category as absolute and utter trash and the only reason you bother playing the class is your bored and can take a couple for L's for a few games before you swap back to an actual working class.

[Morwath.9817]

8 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Its locked behind distor-
Wait nope..
Chrono doesn't actually have boon rip because you never actually melee with sword.
Nobody runs null field.
Nobody runs arcane thievery.
Nobody runs disenchanter.
No chrono gonna be in melee cause they gonna die in melee.
No chrono can contest a point like necro.
Everything from chrono is denied in one thoughtful dodge due to how chrono burst is supposed to work.

Only thing chrono has in common with necro is they both light armor classes.
Chrono is in the same category as firebrand which is the same category as absolute and utter trash and the only reason you bother playing the class is your bored and can take a couple for L's for a few games before you swap back to an actual working class.

 

...and that makes Chronomancer fail design in PvP. It never should be "burst" type of specialization, but rather denial type of specialization with lots of boon rip, interrupts and soft CC thats also has some team support for allies. Original design was too much selfish sustain, got nerfed hard, but again, never was properly compensated. State of Chronomancer is exact reason why none should want to nerf Necromancer outside of Lich.

[Crab Fear.1624]

100% the issue is their hidden mobility.

Looking at the builds on the build sites, they all take wurm and walk.

Many necros have given chase by popping a spectral where they stand and using wurm to port to you in range and fear/condi spike a target, or use it to decap.

It's not like a core necro can't survive a gank attempt even if they don't have any stunbreaks up, if they can pop shourd, you will be weakened among other conditions, and probably chain feared again,

one of the builds on metabattle, a minion-mancer build only used wurm because of its low cd, mobility, and how tanky core necro is.

There are core roaming necromancers in games more than ever, because of this.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Crab Fear.1624

[pierwola.9602]

On 1/2/2022 at 5:58 AM, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Necro is tanky.

Necro does damage, big damage condi, power, hyrbid.

Necro supports.

Necro does not need such mobility.

 

Summon Flesh Wurm and Spectral Walk need increase cooldown to 60s and 45 s respectively.

 

"The cost of big damage and tankiness is lack of mobility" - The Warrior Poet

Just counter them with one of the anti-mobility skills that this game has to offer.

Or ask one of the necromancer from your team to do that. Thats their niche.

Edited January 4, 2022 by pierwola.9602

[Crab Fear.1624]

Mobility is the issue and people are asking for the shroud to be nerfed andlife forced to be nerfed.....lol....

I hope they get what they are asking for lmao, I'll forget about my request.

[Zekent.3652]

No, it's more than that.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 1/2/2022 at 7:11 AM, Ragnar.4257 said:

The root of all these discussions, not just about necro, but also guard, thief, rev, weaver, any of them, is should a class be pegged into a specific role at which they are natually the best for that role, and no others can compete, or, should every class be a viable pick for any role.

By saying necro should be low mobility, you're reinforcing the notion that necro should be the top-dog teamfight DPS. Because it has to be good at something right?

With guardian, if it is not top-tier support, then what is it good for?

With thief, if it is not the best +1, what is it?

With weaver/ranger, if they're not top-tier duelists, what are they for?

And so on.

The only way to make every class be equally viable in every role, to have every class be viable as a teamfighter, support, duelist and roamer, you'd have to end up with them all kinda playing the same, where the only difference between them is really aesthetic, where guardian does blue lights and mesmer does pink lights and necro does green lights, but it's all just for visual effect.

Or, you can just accept that some classes are meant to be really good in one role and not-viable in others.

You can't have it both ways, you can't complain that thief is best roamer and weaver is best duelist and guardian is best support, and also want them to feel distinct.

I agree with what you're saying here.

I think that most people are asking for nerfs in areas that are allowing classes to be too strong in ways they just shouldn't be. Even if people don't realize they are doing this, they are definitely tending towards the idea that "classes should be more distinct in what they are good at, and less viable at everything". Examples:

1. Asking for nerfs to necro mobility, which gives it way too good of disengage for how sustainy it is.
2. Asking for nerfs to thief blind spam, which makes it way too good at straight up engagement without even needing to be tricky about it. I mean seriously it's out of control at this point. A DP Daredevil just trashes a Spellbreaker in close range as example, due to literally permanent blind spam.

The thing is with balance cut to fit classes whith niche strengths that other classes can't compare with, it actually results in better balance. A Thief is a great example of this. Because it has always been the strongest mobility for decap, it has always had a place in the meta because no matter how much it is nerfed or changes, it is always the best decap +er. If they did this with other classes, it would be the same effect and a class would always have some viable reason for use, even if it wasn't necessarily "the best" pick for a 5 man team, it wouldn't have other classes doing what it does better than it does, which results in it not being viable at all.

Right now every class within the intra-class dynamic has had too much enabled for use to the point that we've entered a phase where we are losing job roles because too many things do the same exact thing because they do too much. It started with losing true bunkers through the removal of defensive options and traits in general as well as too much mobility creep where you get +'d too fast. Then it turned to this merging of team fighters and roamers becoming the same thing through too much mobility creep for team fighters and too much power creep in general for roamers who were already fast. Right now team fighters and roamers are nearly the same job role with little margin of difference for who is tweaked better for a certain role. We are even losing side noders because of mainly the mobility creep. You just can't catch 1v1s for very long on a node before you get +'d and that point you may as well be a team fighter with better synergy for a 2v2 or 3v3 or a roamer type that can peel and leave quickly. The only real identified separation of job role right now, is support vs. the new team fighter/roamer/side node hybrid, and even a support guard if played well, is nearly as tanky to kill as an actual side node duelist and he can easily double for that role when needed. I mean the game's dynamic NOW in 2022 is more like checkers where everything does the same thing, compared to 5 years ago or so, when the game was more like chess, where there were these niche reasons for playing certain things and the game was honestly more technical and more fun back then.

I think it's safe to say that it is true that "less is more" in a game like guild wars 2. It's probably a good idea if they try to hone in more on granting classes particular strengths rather than trying to allow them all to do everything. It just makes for better balance and a better game in general. The flavor of distinction between "why a guardian is a guardian" and "why a thief is a thief" IS important to games of this genre.

 

@Crab Fear.1624

And I agree, the Necro's balance issue is mainly within the great mobility disengage. I would add in there though, Fear Ring. <- That skill is so grossly overpowered in so many ways. Right now with modern terrormancer builds, Fear Ring is like stronger than elite skills, Lich included. It has all the practical damage or more of something like Plaguelands or Breach but also rocks tons of control and is on an extremely low CD. Fear Ring needs to lose a second or two of its total duration. It's the same problem with Smoke Screen, it just lasts too long.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

6 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I agree with what you're saying here.

I think that most people are asking for nerfs in areas that are allowing classes to be too strong in ways they just shouldn't be. Even if people don't realize they are doing this, they are definitely tending towards the idea that "classes should be more distinct in what they are good at, and less viable at everything". Examples:

1. Asking for nerfs to necro mobility, which gives it way too good of disengage for how sustainy it is.
2. Asking for nerfs to thief blind spam, which makes it way too good at straight up engagement without even needing to be tricky about it. I mean seriously it's out of control at this point. A DP Daredevil just trashes a Spellbreaker in close range as example, due to literally permanent blind spam.

The thing is with balance cut to fit classes whith niche strengths that other classes can't compare with, it actually results in better balance. A Thief is a great example of this. Because it has always been the strongest mobility for decap, it has always had a place in the meta because no matter how much it is nerfed or changes, it is always the best decap +er. If they did this with other classes, it would be the same effect and a class would always have some viable reason for use, even if it wasn't necessarily "the best" pick for a 5 man team, it wouldn't have other classes doing what it does better than it does, which results in it not being viable at all.

Right now every class within the intra-class dynamic has had too much enabled for use to the point that we've entered a phase where we are losing job roles because too many things do the same exact thing because they do too much. It started with losing true bunkers through the removal of defensive options and traits in general as well as too much mobility creep where you get +'d too fast. Then it turned to this merging of team fighters and roamers becoming the same thing through too much mobility creep for team fighters and too much power creep in general for roamers who were already fast. Right now team fighters and roamers are nearly the same job role with little margin of difference for who is tweaked better for a certain role. We are even losing side noders because of mainly the mobility creep. You just can't catch 1v1s for very long on a node before you get +'d and that point you may as well be a team fighter with better synergy for a 2v2 or 3v3 or a roamer type that can peel and leave quickly. The only real identified separation of job role right now, is support vs. the new team fighter/roamer/side node hybrid, and even a support guard if played well, is nearly as tanky to kill as an actual side node duelist and he can easily double for that role when needed. I mean the game's dynamic NOW in 2022 is more like checkers where everything does the same thing, compared to 5 years ago or so, when the game was more like chess, where there were these niche reasons for playing certain things and the game was honestly more technical and more fun back then.

I think it's safe to say that it is true that "less is more" in a game like guild wars 2. It's probably a good idea if they try to hone in more on granting classes particular strengths rather than trying to allow them all to do everything. It just makes for better balance and a better game in general. The flavor of distinction between "why a guardian is a guardian" and "why a thief is a thief" IS important to games of this genre.

 

Before I say anything, I just wanted to say that I agree with both you and Ragnar, that these are good well-informed comments and analysis.

Now Alas, Here is the thing... Like you said, players fill in their weaknesses with options that cover those weaknesses...alternatively they can also amplify some of their strengths to compensate for those weaknesses...all of which are auxiliary to the main objective: To achieve a goal. The goal to be achieved is to ultimately win the game...which breaks down into smaller goals like you can imagine a computer program or something...

 

Win the Game

Can I kill a player?

Can i decap?

Can I survive against 2 or more players at a time?

 

As you point out...the intent on achieving these very primitive and basic goals...is natural... as in this is what is supposed to happen. People are supposed to want to be able to achieve some kind of meaningful goal, and like an arms-race, the game will tend toward a solution space, where players will aim to achieve either with more efficiency, or more coverage those goals.

 

It seems logical that by limiting the players ability to choose options that cover their weaknesses, or amplify their strengths, that it would turn the game into an RPS kind of game, which would balance the game...

 

But there is a problem with this. And honestly...it's expected that there should be...Seems suspiciously too easy to just have the game be rock-paper-scissors and it should be fine. And indeed it is one of those problems...just like how the nerf philosophy of 2020 seemed to good to be true, so is the philosophy of gw2 RPS game...rather the solution is not as simple as people make it out to be. It is somewhat a reverse problem of a "make everything equal" philosophy.

 

You got to ask what is really an RPS game and why does it work in the first place really. I don't think most ask the question but...what is the real balance story of Rock, Paper and Scissors? It should bother you that Rock, Paper and Scissors are functionally identical, and that there is no clear or identifiable reason as to why the three components, even though they are the same kind of component, give you a "diverse" game. It's the paradox I always talk about rearing it's head again...this paradox between sameness-differences...homogeneity-heterogeneity...balance-diversity.

 

The answer there is deep...Deep enough where I spent years studying things to get an answer...long story short answer is : They are both different aspects of the same thing...or rather they are literally the same thing. As counterintuitive as that sounds...it only sounds that way because our language for describing what it is, is not appropriate.

 

So why did I bring that up to your comment...it's because this concept of the RPS-like GW2 game was introduced in a balance philosophy like 4 or 5 years ago with the philosophy of roles (Purity of Purpose) and it had it's own set of bad balance issues...balance issues that inevitably lead to taking on balance philosophies like the one we have right now. There's ways in which such things can be done right and also lots of ways it can be done wrong...personal analysis here after spending time just creating toy systems, is that there is only one correct way to do it, and all other ways of trying to achieve it are basically facades of the correct way. Those wrong ways might still "work" to a degree but they only work because they still follow the same principles of the correct way to do it.

 

One commonality you find in many proposed (wrong) solutions is to FIGHT the natural tendency for systems to optimize. The process of players adapting and fixing their builds to become strong is a natural thing, and to fight that means already...that one is fighting an uphill battle. It should just be assumed, that all things tend toward the most optimal solution eventually. If one assumes this, then one can say that in order for gw2 to work as an RPS game, it has to be a TRUE RPS game, where all elements are "equal" like in true RPS. Such a game would have to be indistinguishable from just having a perfectly balanced-homogenous game, otherwise it will naturally tend toward the optimal solution (a homogenous metagame).

 

Cheers,

Edited January 10, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Psycoprophet.8107]

7 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I agree with what you're saying here.

I think that most people are asking for nerfs in areas that are allowing classes to be too strong in ways they just shouldn't be. Even if people don't realize they are doing this, they are definitely tending towards the idea that "classes should be more distinct in what they are good at, and less viable at everything". Examples:

1. Asking for nerfs to necro mobility, which gives it way too good of disengage for how sustainy it is.
2. Asking for nerfs to thief blind spam, which makes it way too good at straight up engagement without even needing to be tricky about it. I mean seriously it's out of control at this point. A DP Daredevil just trashes a Spellbreaker in close range as example, due to literally permanent blind spam.

The thing is with balance cut to fit classes whith niche strengths that other classes can't compare with, it actually results in better balance. A Thief is a great example of this. Because it has always been the strongest mobility for decap, it has always had a place in the meta because no matter how much it is nerfed or changes, it is always the best decap +er. If they did this with other classes, it would be the same effect and a class would always have some viable reason for use, even if it wasn't necessarily "the best" pick for a 5 man team, it wouldn't have other classes doing what it does better than it does, which results in it not being viable at all.

Right now every class within the intra-class dynamic has had too much enabled for use to the point that we've entered a phase where we are losing job roles because too many things do the same exact thing because they do too much. It started with losing true bunkers through the removal of defensive options and traits in general as well as too much mobility creep where you get +'d too fast. Then it turned to this merging of team fighters and roamers becoming the same thing through too much mobility creep for team fighters and too much power creep in general for roamers who were already fast. Right now team fighters and roamers are nearly the same job role with little margin of difference for who is tweaked better for a certain role. We are even losing side noders because of mainly the mobility creep. You just can't catch 1v1s for very long on a node before you get +'d and that point you may as well be a team fighter with better synergy for a 2v2 or 3v3 or a roamer type that can peel and leave quickly. The only real identified separation of job role right now, is support vs. the new team fighter/roamer/side node hybrid, and even a support guard if played well, is nearly as tanky to kill as an actual side node duelist and he can easily double for that role when needed. I mean the game's dynamic NOW in 2022 is more like checkers where everything does the same thing, compared to 5 years ago or so, when the game was more like chess, where there were these niche reasons for playing certain things and the game was honestly more technical and more fun back then.

I think it's safe to say that it is true that "less is more" in a game like guild wars 2. It's probably a good idea if they try to hone in more on granting classes particular strengths rather than trying to allow them all to do everything. It just makes for better balance and a better game in general. The flavor of distinction between "why a guardian is a guardian" and "why a thief is a thief" IS important to games of this genre.

 

@Crab Fear.1624

And I agree, the Necro's balance issue is mainly within the great mobility disengage. I would add in there though, Fear Ring. <- That skill is so grossly overpowered in so many ways. Right now with modern terrormancer builds, Fear Ring is like stronger than elite skills, Lich included. It has all the practical damage or more of something like Plaguelands or Breach but also rocks tons of control and is on an extremely low CD. Fear Ring needs to lose a second or two of its total duration. It's the same problem with Smoke Screen, it just lasts too long.

Being greatest at one thing is a double edged sword, thief for example eats nerfs, shoe horned into one or two builds, traitlines nerfed into uselessness or never buffed because it must be fine as its always in the meta for its ability to decap nodes, but what if a ton of thief players love the class but don't want to be a decap runner every game while on their fav class? Can't ask for buffs to CS so it can have a great high burst risky build, sure it hits decent but way higher sustain classes still out burst a cs thief, but cs traitline will never see buffs cuz thief is already best decapper. Careful what uvwish for cuz having a class suffer in areas to be the best in one area isn't all its cracked up to be, especially if that one job isn't a very exciting one.