The Balance of Necro Lies In Mobility, and Other Oddly Implemented Mechanics

[Crab Fear.1624]

Necro is tanky.

Necro does damage, big damage condi, power, hyrbid.

Necro supports.

Necro does not need such mobility.

 

Summon Flesh Wurm and Spectral Walk need increase cooldown to 60s and 45 s respectively.

 

"The cost of big damage and tankiness is lack of mobility" - The Warrior Poet

[Stand The Wall.6987]

next week on the new nerf times, your class gets hammered and the game continues to get more boring and watered down

[Obliviscaris.6937]

1. Identifies tankiness as Necro's problem.
2. Requests change to stun breaks.
3. Necro remains tanky.
4. There's no profit really.

Plague Signet is still on a 25 second CD.

As is Trail of Anguish (granted, need to be a Scourge to use this)

As is well of power.

Perhaps what needs to be looked at, is the life force generation aspect of spectral walk (or the cleanse), and not the stun break in and of its-self.
The wurm being killed takes care of Necrotic Traversal.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Obliviscaris.6937

[Dantheman.3589]

7 minutes ago, Obliviscaris.6937 said:

1. Identifies tankiness as Necro's problem.
2. Requests change to stun breaks.
3. Necro remains tanky.
4. There's no profit really.

Plague Signet is still on a 25 second CD.

As is Trail of Anguish.

As is well of power.

Perhaps what needs to be looked at, is the life force generation aspect of spectral walk (or the cleanse), and not the stun break in and of its-self.
The wurm being killed takes care of Necrotic Traversal.

 

Life force from spectral walk in combination with blood magic is insanely op.

[Curennos.9307]

Tbh even with those nerfs I'd still expect necro to take both of them. Even now I see at least wurm used the vast majority of the time - and, imo, there's a serious problem with necro utilities with how dominant these two skills are that won't be fixed by just increasing the cooldown OR the CDs of the two utilities would have to be increased to the point where it would defeat the purpose. The problem, imo, is that any tankiness granted by other utility skills still isn't enough to compete with the value a teleport brings and it's **really hard** to make a utility skill worthwhile enough to compete with that.

 

Also - and this may be entirely personal preference, but - I think it's a terrible idea to put a utility skill's CD too high. Generally I think 40 sec is a good upper maximum. Any higher and it starts to feel more like an ult. in this case, I'd def agree if someone wanted to trim Spectral Walk - having a stunbreak, teleport, condi cleanse, and LF gen in a single skill is a bit much. I'd rather see the cooldown trimmed but the other effects trimmed as well. 

 

There are also so many more options than increasing the CD - like teleport distance decreases, as a way to give necro teleports but have them still be watered down so it's not as reliable an escape/retreat.

 

Also worth noting that it seems most complaints are about core necro, while ppl seem to have much less of a problem (if any, due to the increased LF degeneration and decreased dmg reduction and uptime on that reduction in shroud) with reaper or scourge.

 

Here's what I'd like to see, off the top of my head:

 

1. Wurm: CD upped to 40 sec. Teleport distance decreased. 900ish. I'd prefer 1000 but iirc anet sticks to tiers of 300 or so. Eh. Anyway. Give the Wurm a bit more health and a smidge more damage. It's currently pretty easy to kill, and will be even easier if/when anet gives classes some damage back. It would be nice if it could end up as a stationary pet the necro had to make a choice of how to use - do you put it out of LoS to have a safe spot to retreat to, or do you put it nearby so it can help with fighting a little. In the case of the latter, it needs to not instantly implode.

 

2. Spectral Walk. No longer cleanses but gives immunity to movement impairing effects. No longer gives LF per cleanse (obviously). Duration reduced to...6-8 sec or so. Cooldown reduced to 40 sec. I think movement impairing effect immunity is fine, especially for necro. It's stronger with other classes as they tend to have more dodges and mobility, so cutting their mobility or temporarily locking out a dodge is much more valuable on a thief and being able to remove an immob or a movement speed decrease is equally more valuable. Necro doesn't have those, so it'd just be able to move around as usual, and it's not like they're pumping out a ton of dodges.

 

Alternatively, leave the cleanse, shorten the duration, decrease the LF gain. It's currently 1 cleanse per 2 sec for 10 sec, for a total of 5 cleanses over 10 sec and 20% LF gain. Can just squish it down to some combination of duration decrease and LF% per cleanse decrease.

Can also put a max distance on there that's shorter than the max distance a necro could run during the full duration

 

3. Revisit core nec damage reduction ONLY if anet isn't going to revisit other classes' damage anytime soon. It'd be pointless to nerf it to compensate for lower damage only to start buffing damage output again.

 

4. Review necro's utilities. I really miss Rise being useful on Reaper, and I'm sure core necros as well are tired of the same 3-4 utilities overshadowing basically everything else. They need to be strong enough to let a necro stay in a fight in a way that isn't ridiculously outclassed by a teleport. A lot of them are extremely out of date (Poison cloud still gives the necro weakness and there's really not enough access to cleanse/condi transfers to make the whole 'neuter power damage and endurance regen for a lil while just to use a utility skill' feasible anymore. Why does signet of undeath still cost almost half base health to use, etcetc. 

[Crab Fear.1624]

2 hours ago, Obliviscaris.6937 said:

1. Identifies tankiness as Necro's problem.
2. Requests change to stun breaks.
3. Necro remains tanky.
4. There's no profit really.

Plague Signet is still on a 25 second CD.

As is Trail of Anguish (granted, need to be a Scourge to use this)

As is well of power.

Perhaps what needs to be looked at, is the life force generation aspect of spectral walk (or the cleanse), and not the stun break in and of its-self.
The wurm being killed takes care of Necrotic Traversal.

Nah, just nerf the mobility skills.

Tankiness is their niche.

I didnt identify problems until the end.

Noice trying to shade that away though.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Crab Fear.1624

[Crab Fear.1624]

3 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

next week on the new nerf times, your class gets hammered and the game continues to get more boring and watered down

I'm expecting full thief nerfs.

Bye bye shadowarts and smokescreen.

[Obliviscaris.6937]

2 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

I didnt identify problems until the end.

 

You barely managed that.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

8 minutes ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Nah, just nerf the mobility skills.

Tankiness is their niche.

I didnt identify problems until the end.

Noice trying to shade that away though.

Mobility skills of core necro such as wurm and spectral walk are actually not that great compared to all other classes. They're kinda like reverse "oh kitten" that you need to plan ahead of the fight. Wurm is also barely usable as chasing tool, Spectral Work doesn't work in chasing targets.
Tankiness isn't their niche though, it's high hp and life force, but that doesn't mean it should be unkillable abomination that spreads whole Periodic Table every few seconds.

[Dadnir.5038]

It's yet another pebble in the pond but:

Tankiness:

- Issue: LF pool.

- Solution: Reduce LF to Health ratio from 69% to 43% in competitive modes.

- Why? The LF pool is the width of the "shield" that the necromancer have reducing it by 33% would bring this "shield" back to pre feb 2020 efficiency.

Mobility:

- Issue: Rune of speed.

- Solution: change rune of speed 6th bonus or remove this rune from sPvP available runesets.

- Why? Rune of speed basically change swiftness into superspeed. Without the improved swiftness, the necromancers will more likely chose runesets that are more on the offensive side leading to a reduction of their ability to tank (rune of speed is a vitality base runeset) and their mobility.

[Ragnar.4257]

The root of all these discussions, not just about necro, but also guard, thief, rev, weaver, any of them, is should a class be pegged into a specific role at which they are natually the best for that role, and no others can compete, or, should every class be a viable pick for any role.

By saying necro should be low mobility, you're reinforcing the notion that necro should be the top-dog teamfight DPS. Because it has to be good at something right?

With guardian, if it is not top-tier support, then what is it good for?

With thief, if it is not the best +1, what is it?

With weaver/ranger, if they're not top-tier duelists, what are they for?

And so on.

The only way to make every class be equally viable in every role, to have every class be viable as a teamfighter, support, duelist and roamer, you'd have to end up with them all kinda playing the same, where the only difference between them is really aesthetic, where guardian does blue lights and mesmer does pink lights and necro does green lights, but it's all just for visual effect.

Or, you can just accept that some classes are meant to be really good in one role and not-viable in others.

You can't have it both ways, you can't complain that thief is best roamer and weaver is best duelist and guardian is best support, and also want them to feel distinct.

[Morwath.9817]

14 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

The root of all these discussions, not just about necro, but also guard, thief, rev, weaver, any of them, is should a class be pegged into a specific role at which they are natually the best for that role, and no others can compete, or, should every class be a viable pick for any role.

By saying necro should be low mobility, you're reinforcing the notion that necro should be the top-dog teamfight DPS. Because it has to be good at something right?

With guardian, if it is not top-tier support, then what is it good for?

With thief, if it is not the best +1, what is it?

With weaver/ranger, if they're not top-tier duelists, what are they for?

And so on.

The only way to make every class be equally viable in every role, to have every class be viable as a teamfighter, support, duelist and roamer, you'd have to end up with them all kinda playing the same, where the only difference between them is really aesthetic, where guardian does blue lights and mesmer does pink lights and necro does green lights, but it's all just for visual effect.

Or, you can just accept that some classes are meant to be really good in one role and not-viable in others.

You can't have it both ways, you can't complain that thief is best roamer and weaver is best duelist and guardian is best support, and also want them to feel distinct.

 

I kinda disagree. I think all classes should be viable in multiple roles, but differences between them can be far greater than visuals. For example their core 'support abilities' should be quite smilar, but they should be able to bring unique tools other classes can't, for example all supports should bring : a) heals, b) boons (mainly: protection and stab) c) revive abilities  all on similar level, but the differences between them could be far greater, like Guardian brings Aegis, Tempest brings Auras, Spectre more ST support rather than group wide support, Druid more offensive kit with more CC and so on. However, right now there is not enough group Stability access for supporters.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

52 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

The root of all these discussions, not just about necro, but also guard, thief, rev, weaver, any of them, is should a class be pegged into a specific role at which they are natually the best for that role, and no others can compete, or, should every class be a viable pick for any role.

By saying necro should be low mobility, you're reinforcing the notion that necro should be the top-dog teamfight DPS. Because it has to be good at something right?

With guardian, if it is not top-tier support, then what is it good for?

With thief, if it is not the best +1, what is it?

With weaver/ranger, if they're not top-tier duelists, what are they for?

And so on.

The only way to make every class be equally viable in every role, to have every class be viable as a teamfighter, support, duelist and roamer, you'd have to end up with them all kinda playing the same, where the only difference between them is really aesthetic, where guardian does blue lights and mesmer does pink lights and necro does green lights, but it's all just for visual effect.

Or, you can just accept that some classes are meant to be really good in one role and not-viable in others.

You can't have it both ways, you can't complain that thief is best roamer and weaver is best duelist and guardian is best support, and also want them to feel distinct.

This whole post seems quite far fetched. The current problem with Necro is that it /is/ good at everything; its one of the classes with the most viable builds in every game mode, ranging from Core Minionmancer, to DPS Reaper and full support Scourge, and that's just a small number of the viable builds on the class.

 

You say that classes should specialise, but right now Necro isn't specialising at all. You could bring 5x Necros to a matchup and still win the matchup as long as they were running  different builds, because you'd still have every base covered. This is the problem people have with the class, not that it "specialises".

 

Okay, they don't have stealth, so you'd still need a Thief.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[Ragnar.4257]

31 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

I kinda disagree. I think all classes should be viable in multiple roles, but differences between them can be far greater than visuals. For example their core 'support abilities' should be quite smilar, but they should be able to bring unique tools other classes can't, for example all supports should bring : a) heals, b) boons (mainly: protection and stab) c) revive abilities  all on similar level, but the differences between them could be far greater, like Guardian brings Aegis, Tempest brings Auras, Spectre more ST support rather than group wide support, Druid more offensive kit with more CC and so on. However, right now there is not enough group Stability access for supporters.

I actually happen to agree with you, that it is possible, I'm just pointing out the backwards-thinking and hypocrisy of many posters and threads like this.

"Reduce thief stealth"

"Reduce weaver sustain"

"Reduce guard blocks"

"Nerf ranger pets"

"Grrrr mesmer slippery"

You see this stuff every day. These requests are nothing to do with X being too strong or Y being too weak, they're all just whines about how "if that class can do X then so should my class". Even if your suggestion for supports was implemented, you'd see complains about X has too much block or Y has too much aura or Z has too much CC.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Morwath.9817]

Just now, Ragnar.4257 said:

I actually happen to agree with you, that it is possible, I'm just pointing out the backwards-thinking and hypocrisy of many posters and threads like this.

"Reduce thief stealth"

"Reduce weaver sustain"

"Reduce guard blocks"

You see this stuff every day. These requests are nothing to do with X being too strong or Y being too weak, they're all just whines about how "if that class can do X then so should my class".

 

Issue with many nerfs is, they ain't anyhow compensated leading towards reducing amount of viable options instead fixing anything. They just happen because too many people around have "my main vs their main" syndrome.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Funny how we go back and forth like this, buffing necro (or, in the last case, nerfing everything) then advocating for nerfing it to worse than it was. What's this, the fifth, sixth time? 

So weird how a couple of damage modifier changes could swing necro from one extreme to the other. 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[FarmBotXD.1430]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Funny how we go back and forth like this, buffing necro (or, in the last case, nerfing everything) then advocating for nerfing it to worse than it was. What's this, the fifth, sixth time? 

So weird how a couple of damage modifier changes could swing necro from one extreme to the other. 

 

you mean from extremely good to extremely overpowered?
somehow necromancers convinced themselves that they were bad before feb patch.
I guess lie repeated enough times does become the truth.

[Genesis.5169]

11 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

next week on the new nerf times, your class gets hammered and the game continues to get more boring and watered down

Thanks.

[Khalisto.5780]

12 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

Necro is tanky.

Necro does damage, big damage condi, power, hyrbid.

Necro supports.

Necro does not need such mobility.

 

Summon Flesh Wurm and Spectral Walk need increase cooldown to 60s and 45 s respectively.

 

"The cost of big damage and tankiness is lack of mobility" - The Warrior Poet

This is the problem with necromancer

"

Death Shroud has a base 10-second recharge upon deactivation. It ends either when the life force pool is completely depleted, or when manually deactivated. A minimum of 10% life force is required to enter Death Shroud.

While in Death Shroud, the necromancer's health is temporarily replaced by their life force pool, and all damage dealt will be inflicted to the life force pool instead of the necromancer's normal health pool. This includes falling damage, allowing Necromancers in Death Shroud to survive falls from greater heights than usually possible. =======>Direct and condition damage done to the life force pool is reduced by 50%<==========. This damage reduction stacks multiplicatively with other damage reduction effects such as Protection. Additionally, the necromancer naturally loses 3% of its total life force pool every second (4% per second in PvP).

 

This was left untouched when they nerfed all dmg and sustain, this thing needs to be shaved in at least 20%

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

32 minutes ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

you mean from extremely good to extremely overpowered?
somehow necromancers convinced themselves that they were bad before feb patch.
I guess lie repeated enough times does become the truth.

I mean, they were "bad" before feb patch, but only reason for that was that everything else was more powercreeped than them.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

4 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I mean, they were "bad" before feb patch, but only reason for that was that everything else was more powercreeped than them.

Kappa

[Crinn.7864]

1 hour ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

somehow necromancers convinced themselves that they were bad before feb patch.

 

Between HoT and megabalance necro was competitive due to having a monopoly on boon corruption in an era defined by extreme boon uptime.  ArenaNet in their infinite wisdom have since decided to halve boon uptime, eliminate concentration, and halve the amount of corruption necro has access to.  As such necromancer's old claim to viability no longer exists and necro don't even run corruption builds anymore because there is no point. If necromancer is reduced to it's pre-megabalance level of relative survivability, then the class would simply cease being usable and would join warrior in the "Why would you even play this?"

 

8 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

- Issue: Rune of speed.

- Solution: change rune of speed 6th bonus or remove this rune from sPvP available runesets.

 

Who is using rune of speed on necro? The choice runes for necro right now are +10% HP runes because such runes are amazing on a class whose sustain scales almost linearly with HP pool.

[Shao.7236]

Kill the Wurm, takes 2 seconds. Don't get baited by Spectral "insert type" for them to get easy LF.

 

With that done, easily countered most of the utility and have a sitting sponge with 2 evades.

 

There are bigger problems such as Chill that last extremely long on some Necromancer skills that needs to be looked at.

 

Honestly you have also Axe on Necro that's so strong it outperforms GS easily in everyway. Maybe take a look at that too.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Dantheman.3589]

9 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

It's yet another pebble in the pond but:

Tankiness:

- Issue: LF pool.

- Solution: Reduce LF to Health ratio from 69% to 43% in competitive modes.

- Why? The LF pool is the width of the "shield" that the necromancer have reducing it by 33% would bring this "shield" back to pre feb 2020 efficiency.

Mobility:

- Issue: Rune of speed.

- Solution: change rune of speed 6th bonus or remove this rune from sPvP available runesets.

- Why? Rune of speed basically change swiftness into superspeed. Without the improved swiftness, the necromancers will more likely chose runesets that are more on the offensive side leading to a reduction of their ability to tank (rune of speed is a vitality base runeset) and their mobility.

They already nerfed rune of speed friend. Biggest problem with this on necro is that it’s only playable on a great sword build because that’s your only reliable source of swiftness.

[Morwath.9817]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

Kill the Wurm, takes 2 seconds. Don't get baited by Spectral "insert type" for them to get easy LF.

 

With that done, easily countered most of the utility and have a sitting sponge with 2 evades.

 

There are bigger problems such as Chill that last extremely long on some Necromancer skills that needs to be looked at.

 

Honestly you have also Axe on Necro that's so strong it outperforms GS easily in everyway. Maybe take a look at that too.

 

Outperforming GS is easy, even Staff does it. Thats mostly because Necro GS is the only GS in game without a leap...