Revive Mesmers, Anet

[Moradorin.6217]

38 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

To be fair they should not listen to mesmer mains exclusively. People that only play one or two classes have a severe bias.

If by "the ability to use dodge while stunned" you mean counterpressure with ambushes while avoiding damage , other classes can do that with evades/blocks that do damage. The only outlier is if you are immobilized.

Ambush damage has already been decreased on quite a few weapons so I don't see that as the primary driver for balance right now. Even more so since torment was changed.

This is what I mean by minor changes that have large impact instead of a wall of text with who knows what will happen. In any experiment you need to have a control , in any test you need to have a variable you are testing for rather than changing many things at once.

Right otherwise good luck isolating the cause when somthing unexpected happens, althought, this is MUCH less complex and easier to control than trying to do isolation testing in general or scientific experimentation. 😉

They should listen to the data mostly and ignore the players or have consultants with different views to get a simple consensus if they are going to apply scientific method. Ths consultants and players are like Peer review. hehe.

 

I think if they had not listened to players Mesmer or otherwise and just looked at Data they would see that something is seriously wrong with Mesmer/Mirage and the source of the decline started with trade off concept that seemed to basically only apply real new tradeoffs to Mesmer and soulbeast.

The data IMO would strongly suggest Mirage should have 2 dodges and another solution is in order. Without access to player stat data I can only give my opinion/assumption.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Moradorin.6217

[Moradorin.6217]

For an incremental change it could just be return the dodge to Mirage and if more is too complicated review the performance data post patch and alter ambush or what ever is the source of too much or too little damage, mobility, what ever as separate issues and increment each each patch, yada yada. You know like they used to do back when we got balance updates many many years ago.

[Vinny.7260]

Only way I ever see Mesmer getting some sorta buff is if they REMOVE Mantra of Distraction and Blurred Inscriptions.

 

Mantra of Distraction, I love you so, but you are holding us back like an relationship that isn't working but we desperately cling on. We need to part ways, we need to find someone else. We need someone better. For the health of everyone, please see yourself out of the room... I love you Mantra of Distraction. (The synergy with Power Block + Ranged Daze makes for incredibly nasty synergy. It also makes it MANDATORY for Mirage to use due to our low sustain. Remove the unhealthy relationship for Mesmer, bring in something more delightful. Don't know what we'd make it exactly though.)

 

Blurred Inscriptions. I love you so, you make my Auspicious Anguish become bearable. You make my Desert Distortion clear... But I'm beginning to lose sight of reality, I cannot read what I once read... You need to go. My hindsight is 2020, but it's 2022. (It takes up too much room in Inspiration, but also has too much synergy. They could remove the Distortion and add some other sort of beneficial effect to support allies/self... But I think it's time to move past our vulnerabilities of being invulnerable.) 

 

From there though, it makes our weaknesses much more apparent and reasonable for Anet to even consider doing. I'd even debate removing Desert Distortion- as much as I love the shards they could move them to other places.

 

 

 

[Infusion.7149]

40 minutes ago, kybraga.7103 said:

Only way I ever see Mesmer getting some sorta buff is if they REMOVE Mantra of Distraction and Blurred Inscriptions.

 

Mantra of Distraction, I love you so, but you are holding us back like an relationship that isn't working but we desperately cling on. We need to part ways, we need to find someone else. We need someone better. For the health of everyone, please see yourself out of the room... I love you Mantra of Distraction. (The synergy with Power Block + Ranged Daze makes for incredibly nasty synergy. It also makes it MANDATORY for Mirage to use due to our low sustain. Remove the unhealthy relationship for Mesmer, bring in something more delightful. Don't know what we'd make it exactly though.)

 

Blurred Inscriptions. I love you so, you make my Auspicious Anguish become bearable. You make my Desert Distortion clear... But I'm beginning to lose sight of reality, I cannot read what I once read... You need to go. My hindsight is 2020, but it's 2022. (It takes up too much room in Inspiration, but also has too much synergy. They could remove the Distortion and add some other sort of beneficial effect to support allies/self... But I think it's time to move past our vulnerabilities of being invulnerable.) 

 

From there though, it makes our weaknesses much more apparent and reasonable for Anet to even consider doing. I'd even debate removing Desert Distortion- as much as I love the shards they could move them to other places.

 

 

 

Mantra of Distraction is fine and so is Blurred Inscriptions , to suggest otherwise with no other evidence is confusing. A daze does nothing on its own except CC (keep in mind it is 180 radius), you could just as easily run a CC such as Signet of Domination (single targets) or meme with Phantasmal Defender for taunt. The key thing is running Power Block to capitalize on Mantra of Distraction comes at the risk/reward of a boon rip or damage on shatters , if Mantra of Distraction was absurdly strong you'd see it in every mesmer build. That isn't the case that it is mandatory as you suggest.

Blurred Inscriptions is in Inspiration Magic meaning you take a heavy DPS hit to run it especially since most signets don't have damage. It doesn't provide massive added value to something such as Signet of Midnight for example which already stealths you and blinds people in melee range (meaning likely only AoEs would hit you) unless you have a number of conditions on you. You would likely run blink as a stunbreak and jaunt on mirage: two signets with 30+ cooldown is effectively ~15+ cooldown between the two of them. Prior to its transfer into the Inspiration Magic line, it was in Domination magic.

The argument against 2 dodge mirage has always devolved into the point that mirage cloak can safe stomp/res and ignore immob as well as staff, scepter, and sword having evade or block. That simply doesn't reflect the reality without inspiration magic you don't have much of any regeneration whatsoever (Renewing Oasis is not it) so whatever damage is laid upon you more or less stays on you as opposed to say a necro/guard/rev/daredevil. This sort of design extends to virtuoso where they put some aegis and regeneration but no actual heals in the traitline.

Speaking of Mantras , a major pain point with respect to power shatter is the loss of the might on preparing Mantra of Pain, although in the earliest iterations of the skill had no might. The mantra changes seemed to be more oriented for guardians, if mantra of pain had might added back (even if half the mantra prep amount) it would be a nice change but in the grand scheme of things due to the damage nerfs it is unlikely to be ran in competitive modes outside of power shatter.

[Vinny.7260]

52 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Mantra of Distraction is fine and so is Blurred Inscriptions , to suggest otherwise with no other evidence is confusing. A daze does nothing on its own except CC (keep in mind it is 180 radius), you could just as easily run a CC such as Signet of Domination (single targets) or meme with Phantasmal Defender for taunt. The key thing is running Power Block to capitalize on Mantra of Distraction comes at the risk/reward of a boon rip or damage on shatters , if Mantra of Distraction was absurdly strong you'd see it in every mesmer build. That isn't the case that it is mandatory as you suggest.

Blurred Inscriptions is in Inspiration Magic meaning you take a heavy DPS hit to run it especially since most signets don't have damage. It doesn't provide massive added value to something such as Signet of Midnight for example which already stealths you and blinds people in melee range (meaning likely only AoEs would hit you) unless you have a number of conditions on you. You would likely run blink as a stunbreak and jaunt on mirage: two signets with 30+ cooldown is effectively ~15+ cooldown between the two of them. Prior to its transfer into the Inspiration Magic line, it was in Domination magic.

The argument against 2 dodge mirage has always devolved into the point that mirage cloak can safe stomp/res and ignore immob as well as staff, scepter, and sword having evade or block. That simply doesn't reflect the reality without inspiration magic you don't have much of any regeneration whatsoever (Renewing Oasis is not it) so whatever damage is laid upon you more or less stays on you as opposed to say a necro/guard/rev/daredevil. This sort of design extends to virtuoso where they put some aegis and regeneration but no actual heals in the traitline.

Speaking of Mantras , a major pain point with respect to power shatter is the loss of the might on preparing Mantra of Pain, although in the earliest iterations of the skill had no might. The mantra changes seemed to be more oriented for guardians, if mantra of pain had might added back (even if half the mantra prep amount) it would be a nice change but in the grand scheme of things due to the damage nerfs it is unlikely to be ran in competitive modes outside of power shatter.

 

My argument with Mantra of Distraction is that it's too strong not to take if you're using anything that capitalizes on CCing. The moment you go without it you're gimping yourself to lose. Dom/Ill Mirage was originally using Arcane Thievery with Vicious Expression before it moved to Mantra of Distraction and Power Block. (It was originally being used to counter Condi Heralds back then, but I digress.)

 

Blurred Inscriptions is unhealthy. I, myself, cannot justify it existing except for maybe going Dom/Insp on Chrono with Midnight/Ether Signet to make up for the glassiness. We currently have a build right now going around built around stalling nodes (and losing them) as long as possible and winning attrition fights like Chaos Staff used to. (Granted it's only used by a handful of people.)

 

We've got Blurred Inscriptions synergy with Auspicious Anguish and Desert Distortion. I'd even argue that both Auspicious Anguish and Desert Distortion shouldn't exist. I think the idea of being able to stack iFrames shouldn't be a thing and having a trait that makes a whole utility set give said-iFrames is not a healthy design choice. It'd be like making Instant Reflexes (passive evade when below HP on Thief.) A trait that activates whenever they use a signet or something. You could argue the fact we lose node versus that example... but c'mon, you can't say with a straight face having that sort of defenses and asking for more is reasonable. Don't argue cast times being the balance as to why it's allowed to give 1s of Distortion either.

 

Anyway, all this aside. With the Power Mesmer thing. Our issue is how many resources we have to commit compared to other classes to get the same results. Virtuoso will be fixing that but at the cost of our defenses naturally. (Losing insta-cast shatters/distortion.)

 

Virtuoso actually solves quite a few issues Core Power Mesmer has. Critical Chance... Dedication to doing massive bursts... Sustained Damage... It just lacks cleaving unless they do some changing to Dagger.

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiwAExrlFwuYUsJGKOqKdLVA-zZIPlMFB9KEKYCUxCwWDA I've been playing this to cope with my feeling of doing no damage lately and honestly, skill levels aside, it's satisfying to play. Although it does show just how much you have to dedicate to pull off the same kinda numbers a Sic' Em Soulbeast can do.

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiwAYd/lRwuYYMFmJe+XvPXA-z5YXGZWB9mCyPA In regards to Mirage sustain, I've been playing this for a bit to cope for when I feel overly squishy in a match up against something like Holosmith/Herald. (But even then, it isn't a duelist.) The Alacrity on Staff is still something I both love and hate existing on Mirage.

 

The main spec for Mesmer I really think needs some help right now is Chronomancer. Time Catches Up should be baseline, aside from the damage mod. Wells don't feel valuable with their 1s condition duration and mediocre reward for staying in them. Shield 4 being useful basically requires using Signet of Ether. The lack of synergy with Chaos. The lack of ways to cleanse conditions naturally. (Well of Eternity being an argument would be like comparing Well of Precognition being a good stun break.)

 

IMO at the end of the day, the other classes are really what are the problem more than Mesmer. Anet just isn't going to give Mesmer anything due to its past of being incredibly busted and horribly unfair to play with. Ask for realistic nerfs to other classes before crawling back begging for buffs to Mirage. And I know, something something hot take. Incoming lots of befuddled expressions.

 

If you want something, lose something.

[Infusion.7149]

How is power block fundamentally different than running a lightning rod ele build , thief pistol whip build, or spellbreaker CC build for example? Other than 15s added cooldown there really isn't, you're trading damage for more shutdown. The interrupt on its own is unlikely to generate kills unless it's interrupting a heal or something defensive. This is akin to GW1 interrupt mesmer.

The issue PvPers fail to realize about Blurred Inscriptions is due to skills only having numeric splits between modes and it is the only reliable way to have aegis from inspiration traitline. Nerfing it would mean you would have no way to reliably apply party aegis. The distortion on sword was changed to blur a long time ago.

Before auspicious anguish existed there was a Mirror of Anguish trait that reflected CC. I would say converting some conditions is less of an overall effect, the only exception is the burning to aegis interaction.

Ultimately you're just agreeing with what I wrote above which is in the grand scheme of things that some skills/traits and innate values (i.e. shroud damage reduction / pets/minions) were not rebalanced in Feb 2020 competitive update. Hence your statement "the other classes are really what are the problem". That doesn't have anything to do with mesmer in particular but other classes not having seen the Feb 2020 competitive update's full changes. The fact that we still have 300s cooldown traits existing is a testament to that.

[Vinny.7260]

17 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

How is power block fundamentally different than running a lightning rod ele build , thief pistol whip build, or spellbreaker CC build for example? Other than 15s added cooldown there really isn't, you're trading damage for more shutdown. The interrupt on its own is unlikely to generate kills unless it's interrupting a heal or something defensive. This is akin to GW1 interrupt mesmer.

The issue PvPers fail to realize about Blurred Inscriptions is due to skills only having numeric splits between modes and it is the only reliable way to have aegis from inspiration traitline. Nerfing it would mean you would have no way to reliably apply party aegis. The distortion on sword was changed to blur a long time ago.

Before auspicious anguish existed there was a Mirror of Anguish trait that reflected CC. I would say converting some conditions is less of an overall effect, the only exception is the burning to aegis interaction.

Ultimately you're just agreeing with what I wrote above which is in the grand scheme of things that some skills/traits and innate values (i.e. shroud damage reduction / pets/minions) were not rebalanced in Feb 2020 competitive update. Hence your statement "the other classes are really what are the problem". That doesn't have anything to do with mesmer in particular but other classes not having seen the Feb 2020 competitive update's full changes. The fact that we still have 300s cooldown traits existing is a testament to that.

 

I personally have no issue with Power Block, Mantra of Distraction interaction. I have an issue when people are wanting more sustain while having a powerful way to shutdown issues with sustain match ups anyway.

 

I do realize that Blurred Inscriptions is the main way for Chrono to share Aegis to clutch-block skills similar to how it used to do with Distortion. I actually don't recall when Sword was ever Distortion. I think it was always just Blur.

 

I only dislike the level of the interaction as someone who doesn't like passively rewarding things. Especially when it's rewarding getting hit by a 12 damage headshot to remove 2 conditions.

 

I'm also aware I'm basically agreeing with you. I'm agreeing and just putting out the blanket statement of 'this is how it is.'

 

I'm sick of seeing the 'give mirage dodge back plz.' lol. If they're wanting to have a second dodge, pick what you are willing to lose.

 

I'd argue Chronomancer should just naturally have a better way to give Aegis to allies to amend the Aegis sharing issue in raids and remove Blurred Inscription and give a much cooler trait. Perhaps make its utilities good for what the class is doing these days. Just food for thought. 🤔

[FarmBotXD.1430]

Lets be real here, mesmer is not going to get buffed.
People will latch onto any decent trait/skill to fight off any potential buffs for mesmer.
No damage buffs because hurr durr stealth.
No sustain buffs because hurr durr signet
No CC buffs because hurr durr power block and mantra
Then they will fall back to hurr durr IH OP mirage OP dodge while stunned hurr durr.

[Obtena.7952]

On 1/4/2022 at 12:14 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

Why is the answer buff mesmer as opposed to nerfing the ones dominating the meta?

OH I know the answer ... because people will use ANY deficient condition to justify any buffs for a class, even if the buffs don't address the condition in the first place. 

This 'problem' in the thread will never really be solvable because of the interactions the classes have during PVP that include those with dominant builds. The 'git gud' factor is real too; as long as bad players have a voice, there will always be someone calling for buffs anywhere you want to look. Even if Mesmer got a buff, why would anyone think it would compete in this environment?

Edited January 5, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Vinny.7260]

51 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OH I know the answer ... because people will use ANY deficient condition to justify any buffs for a class, even if the buffs don't address the condition in the first place. 

This 'problem' in the thread will never really be solvable because of the interactions the classes have during PVP that include those with dominant builds. The 'git gud' factor is real too; as long as bad players have a voice, there will always be someone calling for buffs anywhere you want to look. Even if Mesmer got a buff, why would anyone think it would compete in this environment?

Well put. Mesmer is going to be in a bad place with the oppressive nature the other professions have and/or just are blatantly better at all Mesmer does.

 

Want to roam with Mirage? Play Daredevil, it can stealth allies, blind, dodge more, and shut down team fights and AoE poison to prevent resses. Plus it has a guaranteed daze on a low CD unblockable skill. (Guaranteed as long as it lands because it prioritizes Stability on boon rip.)

 

Want to deal lots of damage at one in a oneshot fashion? Play Sic 'Em Soulbeast and deal more damage from range, better dodges, less dedication of resources, and you get access to a block/protection on dodge. 

 

Want to sidenode and keep the node? Look to Fire Weaver or Protection Holosmith. Both of them have a lot of cleanse/PBAoE pressure without losing the node. Both can also support allies instead of selfishly keep itself alive. 

 

That said, it can do these things really well, but it's just not a good fit in the meta. The other classes just outperform (or even overperform) right now. 

 

We're suffering the same kinda issue Warrior is suffering. We're really well set, but we're just overshadowed. 

 

The issue legitimately isn't Mesmer. We're in the wrong forums lol. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by kybraga.7103

[Moradorin.6217]

4 hours ago, kybraga.7103 said:

Well put. Mesmer is going to be in a bad place with the oppressive nature the other professions have and/or just are blatantly better at all Mesmer does.

 

Want to roam with Mirage? Play Daredevil, it can stealth allies, blind, dodge more, and shut down team fights and AoE poison to prevent resses. Plus it has a guaranteed daze on a low CD unblockable skill. (Guaranteed as long as it lands because it prioritizes Stability on boon rip.)

 

Want to deal lots of damage at one in a oneshot fashion? Play Sic 'Em Soulbeast and deal more damage from range, better dodges, less dedication of resources, and you get access to a block/protection on dodge. 

 

Want to sidenode and keep the node? Look to Fire Weaver or Protection Holosmith. Both of them have a lot of cleanse/PBAoE pressure without losing the node. Both can also support allies instead of selfishly keep itself alive. 

 

That said, it can do these things really well, but it's just not a good fit in the meta. The other classes just outperform (or even overperform) right now. 

 

We're suffering the same kinda issue Warrior is suffering. We're really well set, but we're just overshadowed. 

 

The issue legitimately isn't Mesmer. We're in the wrong forums lol. 

I agree that for balance to mean anything it all boils down to how they stack up compared to each other. I also continue to think removing a dodge was the most blatantly lazy half assed way of dealing with trying to make a spec (Mirage) lower performing in that comparison. One up untill Vindicator etc was added *eyeroll* every class and spec had 2 dodges, mirage was designed with 2 dodges and furthermore Mirage's point of existance is to use its special dodge. That makes the removal of that dodge arguably the worst possible direction expecially when you consider it wasnt somehow given better ambushes or ambushes that are better designed around 1 dodge to make it all work. Nope just one dodge removed along with some other nerfs and a few more nerfs over the last year (not counting alac to staff which is only an improvement for select pve).

 

I dont expect anything to change with Mesmer. I dont think Anet or CMC have the balls to admit they made a mistake or dropped the ball when they went with one dodge, etc. That wont stop me from chiming in when the topic rises thought. 😉

 

[Morwath.9817]

8 hours ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

Lets be real here, mesmer is not going to get buffed.
People will latch onto any decent trait/skill to fight off any potential buffs for mesmer.
No damage buffs because hurr durr stealth.
No sustain buffs because hurr durr signet
No CC buffs because hurr durr power block and mantra
Then they will fall back to hurr durr IH OP mirage OP dodge while stunned hurr durr.

 

Thats why they should buff Mesmer group utility, so he becomes proper disabler like in GW1. There is really no point to push Mesmer into stealth-teleport damage dealer role he was pushed his entire career in GW2, because lets be real... when you try to be a Thief, you will always be gimmick compared to Thief unless completly OP.

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

On 1/3/2022 at 7:52 PM, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Well yeah. But my point was the class doesn't suck. Which you seem to agree with. Vs a whole bunch of other people who just flood the forum every day with some variation of "this class is utter dogkitten." 

I agree it needs some improvements. But, and this is a point Shorts has also made, that isn't going to work if no one can agree where it is at/what it needs.

The Devs cannot please the crowd who thinks Mesmer is completely unusable without setting off another chain of nerfs down the road.  Again. People are bad at this game AND Mesmer doesn't have enough of a pay off for the amount of effort you have to put into it. Both need to be addressed for any actual progress.

Buddy , Shorts would be the first person to tell you Mesmer sucks and to reroll something else. 

 

Nerf chaos/inspi so the rest of the kit can be buffed. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

Buddy , Shorts would be the first person to tell you Mesmer sucks and to reroll something else. 

 

Nerf chaos/inspi so the rest of the kit can be buffed. 

So while we talk about how op Chaos/Inspi needs nerf yet kitten like SA exist or Wilderness and Nature Magic still exist. 

[Vinny.7260]

2 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

So while we talk about how op Chaos/Inspi needs nerf yet kitten like SA exist or Wilderness and Nature Magic still exist. 

Oh, no. They're allowed because they're not Mesmer you see!

(Nature Magic isn't that bad.)

Sike, it isn't okay.

22 hours ago, Vinny.7260 said:

The issue legitimately isn't Mesmer. We're in the wrong forums lol. 

 

[ClickToKill.8473]

Mesmer is the class that Anet never seems to be able to balance.  Its either op or its trash.  However,  Mesmer did deserve some of the nerfs it had received in the past. 

 

The condition burst the PoF released Mirage had was incredibly easy and and very hard to stop by even an amateur.  I didn't even play mesmer that much before Mirage, but I ran that build till Anet killed it. Was it a bit heavy handed?  Most likely.  They probably could look for other ways to give some power back to the class.  After a while they just ended up nerfing condi as a whole, so, they probably could revert a few of the class targeted nerfs and maybe make such a burst combo require some skill. 

 

Chrono's problem is it is heavily tied to alacrity and continuum shift to be good.  Its been a nightmare to balance because messing with cooldowns is the easiest way to break something. I really don't know how to help this class, but as long as Bunker Chrono doesn't come back, I wouldn't mind any boosts this class was given. 

[Zraurum.8493]

On 1/2/2022 at 7:44 PM, GrimDanny.7039 said:

Here is another plead, to nobody. But let me write down my thoughts here anyway, because I know that there are others like me with the same thinking.

It is 2022 and we all know that this means nothing to anet when it comes to making a decent change for the gameplay of mesmers. Heck anet has broken a very attractive class. What? No. We all know that this unwise decision of chopping mesmers, also lead to players losing interest in ever playing their characters at all. Unwise for the simple fact that mesmers are useless compared to other classes. They're no useful support. No dps. No sustain. No nothing at all. You can pve with mesmers, and fool the dumb, predictable enemies; but most of us endgame players don't play pve. Our thing is pvp and wvw. We invest in our characters to be good for wvw and pvp, not pve.  Period. But friend, when I started out in guild wars 2, about 2 years ago, I was interested in this clone-creating, mind-shattering class called mesmer. I was so excited about playing this unique class that I went long extents with mines. And deleted him the same way, after I learned of other classes. And then I remade him again, and tried a thousand builds, but no, mesmers will never good the way they are. Oh but the whining! Yep, if I didn't like this class, I wouldn't bother, but the fact is, I do.

I play pvp and wvw on 6 other characters and they are all successful in any build I make for them. But my mesmer just won't cut it with any build. 

The trolls will say "YOu doN'T KNOw hOw tO PLay BRo." We all know you'll say this because you know nothing of guild wars 2 and the other classes available. It's like- reapers or guardians or rangers(and all others) are BMW's that go 280km/h while mesmers are those little smart vehicles that run at 60km/h. Oh man, I'd love to come home from work one day, to receive news of a patch that would turn that defenseless guy of no useful perks, into a decent and playable class in pvp and wvw.

Say what you want to try and contradict me, but we who have tried all classes in multiple builds either for pvp and wvw... know better.

/cry

Sign the petition to return the second Dodge to the mirage, at least with something to start resuscitating the mesmers, it may be possible to at least draw attention to the problems of our class

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

10 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

So while we talk about how op Chaos/Inspi needs nerf yet kitten like SA exist or Wilderness and Nature Magic still exist. 

Hear me out here, it is possible to acknowledge problematic aspects of your own class when other problematic things exist in the game. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 hours ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

Hear me out here, it is possible to acknowledge problematic aspects of your own class when other problematic things exist in the game. 

So you wanna hear problematic things about our class right? Here let me list it out.

Core :

Glamour has no traits in conjunction to it and whatever was left was already taken out of the game ages ago and forgotten.

Many of the traits was completely removed.

By making phantasms turn to clone there is no way to shatter after phantasms are summoned, as well as phantasms damage have been nerfed even tho it is a one time use.

Nerfing Clones HP to a point where clones will die before they can reach the intended target for damage.

Not enabling boons to copy onto clones removing the whole "deception" with clones.

Mantras were never adjusted based on the boons and bonus after casted.

Chronomancer :

Wells have aged badly compare to classes that are able to give out Quickness and Alacrity way easier without having wells to tick at the very end to give the buff. Essentially what chronos specialize is given to other classes and excel better.

Distortion was removed which means anyone with half a brain will understand that targeting the CS will return the chrono in a dire state, which means you condi bomb it the chrono will return to all of it. Aside from PvE sometimes doing CS is more detrimental then it is helpful without a distortion afterwards as safety. 

Slow is not utilized enough as well as dmg modifiers were nerfed. 

Mirage :

Many mirage mains already pointed out the issue of why this class is too strong and that is the dodge as well as IH. Being able to dodge while CC is super op but ANET cannot change this because there is no real way to code the dodge back to normal, if they remove the aspect of dodging while CC then it is way weaker then a normal dodge considering you have no distance like a normal dodge.

Putting a one dodge nerf even though this whole class as a whole works with dodges more so then any other spec, this e-spec was not balanced or made around the mindset of 1 dodge.

Giving Mirage alacrity was one of the worst things they could've done, there is no reason why Mirage should have access to this boon.

They removed a staff clone to stop Mirage from generating too much pressure back when it had 2 dodges was never reverted now that Mirage has one dodge.

 

So when you address all these issues Mesmers have by all means nerf the kitten out of Inspiration and Chaos. Sadly those 2 trait line is the only thing Mesmers have left and if people still continue to cry for nerfs and still get derped by Mesmer then at the end of the day its not the class its just bad players who don't understand Mesmers enough or the game enough, but honestly no class aside from warriors or maybe Ele should ever lose to a Mesmer competitive wise.

The only reason why I had mention those trait lines is because those trait lines alone are basically Inspiration and Chaos combined into one trait line with what it offers for the class.

So before you make a comment in Mesmer section, make sure you read previous comments and not get burned.

FYI if you didn't know every core problems also affects both chrono and mirage so just because the list is shorter for chrono and mirage its because I didn't want to repeat it.

I haven't even begun to talk about weapon skills and the damage that was nerfed across the board compared to other classes.

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Obtena.7952]

16 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

So while we talk about how op Chaos/Inspi needs nerf yet kitten like SA exist or Wilderness and Nature Magic still exist. 

Part of the misunderstanding players have ... somehow, some people convinced themselves what another class does affects another or is a compelling reason to change another class. I can assure you, neither of these has been the case. 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

6 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

So you wanna hear problematic things about our class right? Here let me list it out.

Core :

Glamour has no traits in conjunction to it and whatever was left was already taken out of the game ages ago and forgotten.

Many of the traits was completely removed.

By making phantasms turn to clone there is no way to shatter after phantasms are summoned, as well as phantasms damage have been nerfed even tho it is a one time use.

Nerfing Clones HP to a point where clones will die before they can reach the intended target for damage.

Not enabling boons to copy onto clones removing the whole "deception" with clones.

Mantras were never adjusted based on the boons and bonus after casted.

Chronomancer :

Wells have aged badly compare to classes that are able to give out Quickness and Alacrity way easier without having wells to tick at the very end to give the buff. Essentially what chronos specialize is given to other classes and excel better.

Distortion was removed which means anyone with half a brain will understand that targeting the CS will return the chrono in a dire state, which means you condi bomb it the chrono will return to all of it. Aside from PvE sometimes doing CS is more detrimental then it is helpful without a distortion afterwards as safety. 

Slow is not utilized enough as well as dmg modifiers were nerfed. 

Mirage :

Many mirage mains already pointed out the issue of why this class is too strong and that is the dodge as well as IH. Being able to dodge while CC is super op but ANET cannot change this because there is no real way to code the dodge back to normal, if they remove the aspect of dodging while CC then it is way weaker then a normal dodge considering you have no distance like a normal dodge.

Putting a one dodge nerf even though this whole class as a whole works with dodges more so then any other spec, this e-spec was not balanced or made around the mindset of 1 dodge.

Giving Mirage alacrity was one of the worst things they could've done, there is no reason why Mirage should have access to this boon.

They removed a staff clone to stop Mirage from generating too much pressure back when it had 2 dodges was never reverted now that Mirage has one dodge.

 

So when you address all these issues Mesmers have by all means nerf the kitten out of Inspiration and Chaos. Sadly those 2 trait line is the only thing Mesmers have left and if people still continue to cry for nerfs and still get derped by Mesmer then at the end of the day its not the class its just bad players who don't understand Mesmers enough or the game enough, but honestly no class aside from warriors or maybe Ele should ever lose to a Mesmer competitive wise.

The only reason why I had mention those trait lines is because those trait lines alone are basically Inspiration and Chaos combined into one trait line with what it offers for the class.

So before you make a comment in Mesmer section, make sure you read previous comments and not get burned.

FYI if you didn't know every core problems also affects both chrono and mirage so just because the list is shorter for chrono and mirage its because I didn't want to repeat it.

I haven't even begun to talk about weapon skills and the damage that was nerfed across the board compared to other classes.

 

uwu was all that for wittle old me?

 

So ladies and gentleman this is what you would call a strawman. 

 

This is all very fine and dandy but has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. 

 

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 hours ago, Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

uwu was all that for wittle old me?

 

So ladies and gentleman this is what you would call a strawman. 

 

This is all very fine and dandy but has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. 

 

 

No I'm pretty sure I covered the problems of my own class the goods and the bad. Unless you are able to list a better one. Or are is it just to troll post and not back up with anything substantial? We have TONS of that you can also go to reddit if you feel you must post something as well. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Yoci.2481]

The only thing I find even remotely nerf-worthy in Chaos and Inspiration is Blurred Inscriptions combined with Auspicious Anguish, but you need two defensive trait lines for that, giving up a lot and  nerfing your damage pretty hard. Other than that both specs aren't that great. Like Salt Mode said other professions get similar value out of a single trait line.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

On 1/3/2022 at 10:07 PM, Senqu.8054 said:

I feel like these discussions always end up being about semantic and not about the actual problem lol
 

And tbh @Daniel Handler.4816, you just keep ignoring the fact that mesmer has lost a almost not countable amount of traits and mechanics that it borders on an insult to even begin to call it viable. What you are talking about is if not just a single build, which is only really usable in niche situations and only if the skill level of the mesmer player is higher than that of the opponent. I mean, what? 

You cannot play anything on mesmer beside one dodge condi mirage and even this build is strongly handicapped. I don’t know about you but i lost more then 10 to 15 builds in the last 10 years of gw2 to a point I am not able to play anything anymore because it is just bad. If this is not the definition of „this class now sucks“ I don’t know what is. And saying the devs could not please a crowd that thinks this class is totally unusable is such an kitten argument, I will just underline it and leave it like it is because, you are now just ignoring the state of the game in comparison to what it was.

 

One more thing. Reasoning with People are Just bad at playing mesmer shows the same mentality as „favored by the best players and the best players tend to win more“, and has nothing to do with constructive feedback in this regards.

1h35m in

How many forum posts are there that amount to "just return the second dodge." 
And these people would also complain if the second dodge was returned but invuln signets etc were removed.

 

So please tell me then what the devs supposed to do? Mesmer does need some improvements. It doesn't need the insane degree of increases that some people clamor for. Acting like it just the classes fault and no one is kitten at the game just results in the class getting nerfed later for catering to the lowest common denominator. Again. The class needs to be improved. So do skill levels.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Daniel Handler.4816]

On 1/3/2022 at 8:06 PM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I mean you have actual players like Shorts + Vallun because they are the most name dropped players comment on the needed changes on Mesmer/Virtuoso. Then you look at the balance changes for ALL class and Virtuoso and its as clear as night and day. 

At this point Mesmer mains are numbed by the false hopes that we would be listened because clearly look at the history of Mesmer balances as a whole.

We are the 5/6th most common class and the 1st in forum posts.  There is a ton of kitten to sort through. I don't want to white knight for arena net. But I can at least be sympathetic that this class gets a ton of complaints by people who main the class and people who don't. Both sides hating it for different reasons. And trying to make something workable from that noise is a little difficult.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Daniel Handler.4816