Killing a training golem doesn't add anything to whatever class, it holds no value or meaning

[Arheundel.6451]

It's like I landed in the twilight zone as of recently:

 

What "benching 55k dmg" on a static training golem accomplish for anybody who doesn't give 2 cents about posting youtube videos of them breaking an apparent record killing a training dummy? Cool! you can deal 55k dmg with your l33t rotation on a golem...ok now let me go in WvW or PvP and let me ask gently that thief or rev, to stand still so I can benchmark 55k on them.

My question is now, why this benchmark BS talk hold any value in the balance talks around the community? ...this guy apparently was serious enough to make a video about it....there is really no hope for this class...

Edited January 3, 2022 by Arheundel.6451

[Emberheart.8426]

The issue with benchmark talk is that it won't last. If it's not nerfed to the ground by launch then it will be soon after. Then what?

[anduriell.6280]

There are different gamemodes, when talking about DPS benchmarks those are generally speaking related always about PvE content. 

Nobody with 2 functioning braincells would think an static sponge would be a good indicator for performance in WvW or PvP. 

I haven't watched the video but if the youtuber is talking about pve then benchmark is ok. If he is referring about the game in general then his/her/their opinion is totally mistaken in my opinion as PVP/WvW are 2/3 of the game modes available in this game. 

But maybe catalist is not designed with wvw in mind although that would be a shame. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Guy from video talking that if you played for over 10k hours on berserker(his example) then trying out Bladesworn then it'll feel subpar, because you don't have same amount of experience on it.
That's the dumbest argument I've ever heard anyone trying to make to justify how bad certain things are.
Sure, you aren't accustomed to the new spec yet, sure you need more time to feel more fluid gameplay, but these 10k hours spent on playing Berserker will still become experience which will easily be able to tell you if xyz e-spec is good or not, because you already know the game enough for that.
But hey, atleast it's doing 50k+ dps on pve golem until it'll get nerfed to the ground like every other ele spec, because people are crying that the lowest hp&armor class does more damage than them.

[Draconious.2751]

1 hour ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Nobody with 2 functioning braincells would think an static sponge would be a good indicator for performance in WvW or PvP. 

 

You say this but it rears its ugly head in every topic. I think the golem benchmarks, particularly large hitbox, are a massive disservice to the game's balancing because it benefits click bait rather than practical dps.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Draconious.2751

[Jski.6180]

The real issue is that pve and raids fights are some of the most simplistic type of combat in gw2. There so many effects that classes have that are comply mean-less in pve. Its wvw and spvp where the real balancing and use of skills plays out. So PvE balancing should be the slowest to update and spvp / wvw balancing should be way more often.

Yet anet balances base off of pve and it is destroying the game.

[Infusion.7149]

You'd have a point if he (an Arenanet Partner rather than someone that just posts spam) were merely talking about large/huge hitboxes though. Also they aren't a PVP/WVW commentator and don't pretend to be one.

Particularly small hitboxes are a good indicator of what kind of performance can be attained in PVE. Unlike weaver catalyst isn't slated to be as terrible a spec in terms of boon reliance. Also unlike weaver the benchmark isn't 36-37K on power stats played perfectly.

If you look on wingman, on a semi mobile/damaging fight such as VG where it has a medium 140 hitbox , weaver is mediocre: https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/vg
The top performer on average here is holo due to burst and mobility , this has a 35% power bonus which puts CFB/condi ren at a disadvantage

On KC which is a phased fight with +35% power bonus and favorable hitbox large 200 hitbox , the average holo or power soulbeast exceeds weaver due to burst:
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/kc

On MO which is effectively a DPS golem of 160 medium hitbox it is one of the highest performers on normal mode when you isolate condi vs power https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/mo
However since the other classes are easier and condi ren is ahead it isn't worth the effort

Samarog normal mode with a giant 420 hitbox , weaver is only exceeded by catalyst:
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/sam

Adina normal mode (160 medium hitbox), condi weaver is a top DPS but requiring far more effort:
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/adina
 

What happens on CA is interesting as weaver is top DPS here by minimal amounts, this has a massive hitbox:
https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/raid/ca

---

In PVP and to a lesser extent WVW catalyst is going to suffer severely from a mobility and range sense unless the hammer is changed. If you aren't using hammer then you are core ele with a F5 key  that hasn't seen the PVE cooldown reduction to 5 seconds, some stat boosts, and a minor bit of stability.

As to that end, Grimjack was not playing hammer IIRC.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Puck.3697]

8 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Guy from video talking that if you played for over 10k hours on berserker(his example) then trying out Bladesworn then it'll feel subpar, because you don't have same amount of experience on it.
That's the dumbest argument I've ever heard anyone trying to make to justify how bad certain things are.
Sure, you aren't accustomed to the new spec yet, sure you need more time to feel more fluid gameplay, but these 10k hours spent on playing Berserker will still become experience which will easily be able to tell you if xyz e-spec is good or not, because you already know the game enough for that.
But hey, atleast it's doing 50k+ dps on pve golem until it'll get nerfed to the ground like every other ele spec, because people are crying that the lowest hp&armor class does more damage than them

In all honesty the vast majority of the playerbase could play a proffession for 10k hours and still not manage to maximise their DPS with any of its speccs. 

And tbh alot of what I hear Nike talks about is PvE so I'd pressume hes mainly gonna talk about its performance compared to other speccs against the same thing. 

Tbh anything doing 50k DPS on a golem should be lowered. Benchmarks shouldn't be increasing primarily because the DPS is soo insanely over the demand from encounters that it's dumb AF currently. 

This game doesn't need 40k benchmarks. Let alone 50k and tbh you cant say that's "unfair". Both harbinger and virtuoso 2 super glass cannons got nerfed for doing 45k. And serious nerfing. 

Harbingers now doing 36k and I think virt got smacked down to 37k. So yes a 55k DPS will likely get nerfed. 

To the lowest hp and defense argument. I think the trade off is susposed to be the quantity of active defense it has, for example in spvp weaver is defintly not a glass cannon. It's a 1vX specc. 

Now ofcourse at this point maybe Anet should consider undoing that as so many are unhappy with that trade off. But you'd take some serious nerfs to active sustain if they did it. As you would litterally become immortal in spvp if they equalised your passive sustain. 

As far as I'm aware Anet intend to bring the DPS down not up. Theyve been pretty strict on keeping these new speccs below 40k benchmarks. 

And weaver is still pretty capable of good DPS in raids. Problem is firebrand and renegade Nd things need nerfing downwards not things brought uptoo their level. 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I think he just answers off the mark, amalgamating  all points with the damage/piano one and PVE benchmark view.

You don't need time and practice to notice there are issues of mobility, sustain, after-cast, gap closer, reliance, puzzle of mechanics, etc, or at least there are issues of information, understanding, of accessibility. More exactly we already have points of comparison from earned experience and previous expansions/updates. For example I remember playing holo for like 15 minutes and I didn't need time and practice to fully enjoy the spec and kill mobs by ten. Same with weaver.

I mean ... this is exactly why they gave us  BETA week-end.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[zealex.9410]

That video assumes both the speaker and the listener agree its about pve, i guess that assumption shouldnt be taken for granted

[Obtena.7952]

On 1/3/2022 at 8:07 AM, Arheundel.6451 said:

It's like I landed in the twilight zone as of recently:

 

What "benching 55k dmg" on a static training golem accomplish for anybody who doesn't give 2 cents about posting youtube videos of them breaking an apparent record killing a training dummy? Cool! you can deal 55k dmg with your l33t rotation on a golem...ok now let me go in WvW or PvP and let me ask gently that thief or rev, to stand still so I can benchmark 55k on them.

My question is now, why this benchmark BS talk hold any value in the balance talks around the community? ...this guy apparently was serious enough to make a video about it....there is really no hope for this class...

I don't think the benchmark actually does DOES hold value with anyone ... even PVE people. To be fair, Nike is known for PVE video content ... so if you are tuning into his channel, it's a safe bet he's talking about PVE and I believe if you watch that video ... it should also be clear it's about PVE.

But I think you missed something. You do realize the video is more about a comment on the absurdity of the feedback (because yes, even if someone HATES Catalyst or EVEN if the OP is talking about WvW/PVP, his feedback given in that thread was of questionable value anyways). I didn't get the vibe that Nike was AT ALL trying comment on the quality of Catalyst as a class in ANY gamemode by pointing out it's DPS benchmark OR making a commentary about Catalyst being awesome in WvW/PvP. 

TLDR ... you missed the point of the video. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Zlynnt.5390]

On 1/3/2022 at 5:07 AM, Arheundel.6451 said:

It's like I landed in the twilight zone as of recently:

 

What "benching 55k dmg" on a static training golem accomplish for anybody who doesn't give 2 cents about posting youtube videos of them breaking an apparent record killing a training dummy? Cool! you can deal 55k dmg with your l33t rotation on a golem...ok now let me go in WvW or PvP and let me ask gently that thief or rev, to stand still so I can benchmark 55k on them.

My question is now, why this benchmark BS talk hold any value in the balance talks around the community? ...this guy apparently was serious enough to make a video about it....there is really no hope for this class...

 

 

Why are you talking about WvW or PvP?  anybody who doesn't have sub room-temp IQ understands Golem Benchmarks are for PvE (specifically endgame pve modes like Raids, Fractals, Strikes) that's literally why the golem was added to the game, anyone who thinks they are for anything else are either lying or genuinely ignorant to put it nicely.  

Edited January 6, 2022 by NolanP.7604

[Arheundel.6451]

On 1/3/2022 at 2:41 PM, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Guy from video talking that if you played for over 10k hours on berserker(his example) then trying out Bladesworn then it'll feel subpar, because you don't have same amount of experience on it.
That's the dumbest argument I've ever heard anyone trying to make to justify how bad certain things are.
Sure, you aren't accustomed to the new spec yet, sure you need more time to feel more fluid gameplay, but these 10k hours spent on playing Berserker will still become experience which will easily be able to tell you if xyz e-spec is good or not, because you already know the game enough for that.
But hey, atleast it's doing 50k+ dps on pve golem until it'll get nerfed to the ground like every other ele spec, because people are crying that the lowest hp&armor class does more damage than them.

Some people get it.....some will focus on the golem aspect

Edited January 7, 2022 by Arheundel.6451

[Tungsten Monarch.6058]

Golem's don't hit back, Catalyst still a terrible spec.