The long range dream is dead with EoD?

[Jski.6180]

3 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

You sadly won't avoid stacking. 

World of Warcraft, will always stack. 

FFXIV will always stack. 

Gw2 will always stack. 

It's the most effective way to keep your raid in the right place realistically. 

That's not undoable and trying to undo it would likely not work out as you think it would. As generally due to how mechanics work it'd just get you as a player murdered the only way you would is to have continous mechanics going off forcing movement on players to deal with them. But that'd be servely unhealthy turn to rly take to force such a thing 

 

. 

You can split ppl up during fights even from what i seen of ff14 remake they have some fights that do split ppl up. I find most raids game play more set pieces then real fights the only true fight in a video game is vs another person.

[Puck.3697]

52 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

You can split ppl up during fights even from what i seen of ff14 remake they have some fights that do split ppl up. I find most raids game play more set pieces then real fights the only true fight in a video game is vs another person.

They do and don't. 

FFXIV have positional combat, you have to move to certain parts of the boss to do maximum DPS as a melee. 

Ranged oftenly have mechanics which require you to all run to different points to absorb skills, aswell as others which require balancing between sides of the platform. 

So it is via mechanics that force the players apart

The issue is bringing mechanics like this into gw2 would prolly not function well realistically. As gw2 raids aren't large enough to actually get a comp qualified to provide everything then having that many excess to deal with the mechanical level FFXIV requires. 

However in fights with less mechanics or on lower difficulties you do commonly see stacking used more. 

To the whole PvE and PvP thing is very dependent on where u rank. 

Fighting a silver or gold player is basically the same as fighting a NPC. As it's common for people to do the exact same thing continously and way too predictable to give it that sense of unexpected occurances. 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[AliamRationem.5172]

8 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

You sadly won't avoid stacking. 

World of Warcraft, will always stack. 

FFXIV will always stack. 

Gw2 will always stack. 

It's the most effective way to keep your raid in the right place realistically. 

That's not undoable and trying to undo it would likely not work out as you think it would. As generally due to how mechanics work it'd just get you as a player murdered the only way you would is to have continous mechanics going off forcing movement on players to deal with them. But that'd be servely unhealthy turn to rly take to force such a thing 

 

. 

There's stacking and then there's stacking.  As you point out, games like FFXIV and WoW use encounter mechanics to force positioning other than stacking.  There's another key difference, however.  These games are trinity designs and they support full healing roles both in terms of class design but also UI design. 

GW2 can't use encounter mechanics as easily as a result of these types of decisions because their healers are basically just a skin thrown over a design that was never intended to support a true healing role.  The biggest problem is the lack of support for targeted healing.  You can't target a player at range and heal them.  In WoW/FFXIV you can.  So, when encounters force players to spread out you have the means to handle that.  In GW2 you don't.  Players have to stack to receive support/healing.

I wish non-trinity worked.  I really do.  Unfortunately, it just doesn't provide a better experience.  It takes away the dynamics of true tanking and healing roles, but doesn't introduce anything new or different.  Worse, it obviates the need for mechanics like dodge which truly are an advantage for GW2's combat.  The result is that group content often feels worse in this game than solo content where in games like WoW/FFXIV the opposite is true.

[Jski.6180]

10 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

They do and don't. 

FFXIV have positional combat, you have to move to certain parts of the boss to do maximum DPS as a melee. 

Ranged oftenly have mechanics which require you to all run to different points to absorb skills, aswell as others which require balancing between sides of the platform. 

So it is via mechanics that force the players apart

The issue is bringing mechanics like this into gw2 would prolly not function well realistically. As gw2 raids aren't large enough to actually get a comp qualified to provide everything then having that many excess to deal with the mechanical level FFXIV requires. 

However in fights with less mechanics or on lower difficulties you do commonly see stacking used more. 

To the whole PvE and PvP thing is very dependent on where u rank. 

Fighting a silver or gold player is basically the same as fighting a NPC. As it's common for people to do the exact same thing continously and way too predictable to give it that sense of unexpected occurances. 

All about wvw that where you have pve and pvp balancing is important! That where you have the pve of food and gear but the pvp where effects like unblockable and boon strip are impotent and the only places where you can full take the 1,200 ranged (spvp maps are too small to realy push that long range with out any thing getting LOS).

[Huldrelokk.6598]

10 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

.

I read all your replies, you have good points but my opinions keeps the same at some points.

1 - Elementalist cant compete with other classes in ANY function currently, healing, dps or wharever.

2 - The risk is high and the reward low, why we will play with a paper class with a long rotation while we can do the same thing with a DH for example pressing 120 less buttons and dealing the same damage with more sustain? Weaver is not worth.

3 - Ok, maybe you dont like ranged attacks and can see some problems with long ranged weapons on the game, for example you said about our boons and healings needing group stack to be efective in groups and you are completely right, the major point about a new ranged weapon is options, Scepter and Staff is dead, they can be useful in restriced situations and that's it, a deep rework can fix it but what's the chance?

4 - In the past Greatsword like Mesmer was in the pool of discussion with Longbow and Shortbow, nothing is a barrier to stack and do PvE group mechanics if you have long range weapon on the set, Benchmarks with Staff ele always was showed with melee distance and before the patch that killed staff dps the stack rule was perfectly matching with the weapon regardless of max range.

5 - "Downed state meta" is not a meme, you can get 5000 hours playing with weaver and still will get a hit kill that will make you feel a beginner, this fact is out of our control is just what the class is, a light class with low hp and no resistance, unless you sacrifice some damage stats to get some defensive hope what cant be solve the problem.

6 - Hammer choosed looks like just to fill the pool of options to use the weapon, Hammer was like Elementalist, forgeted.

7 - If they rework Conjured weapons to works like Eng kits maybe we will solve alot of problems with the class, what's the reason to conjure a weapon with expire time? Keep the ground conjured weapon with expire time (or just remove this feature) and let us use the options freely with free time, conjured weapons are far of be strong enough to cause instability on the game (Fiery Greatsword is really strong).

I appreciate your replies.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Huldrelokk.6598

[Puck.3697]

5 minutes ago, Huldrelokk.6598 said:

- Elementalist cant compete with other classes in ANY function currently, healing, dps or wharever

But it actually does realistically. 

Hybrid weaver is a 39.5k DPS. There are only 2 other speccs which hold that level of dps realistically. 

The problem isnt we can't compete with other proffessions as a pure DPS. Because we very much can. The issue is pure DPS builds have no place in the current meta with the supports level of damage with existing builds. 

9 minutes ago, Huldrelokk.6598 said:

- The risk is high and the reward low, why we will play with a paper class with a long rotation while we can do the same thing with a DH for example pressing 120 less buttons and dealing the same damage with more sustain? Weaver is not worth

Because this is a mmorpg. And in mmorpgs difficulty cannot be considered when balancing a specc. 

Ironically I can do more DPS on my weaver then my DH, Weavers rotation is long, but more forgiving when not done perfectly then DHs. 

Difficult options exist for those who find it fun. Not directly for rewards. 

11 minutes ago, Huldrelokk.6598 said:

3 - Ok, maybe you dont like ranged attacks and can see some problems with long ranged weapons on the game, for example you said about our boons and healings needing group stack to be efective in groups and you are completely right, the major point about a new ranged weapon is options, Scepter and Staff is dead, they can be useful in restriced situations and that's it, a deep rework can fix it but what's the chance

Have you heard the saying. Doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results is a sign of insanity? 

If Anet have trashed 2 ranged weapons why would you beleive they'd do it different on a third? 

12 minutes ago, Huldrelokk.6598 said:

"Downed state meta" is not a meme, you can get 5000 hours playing with weaver and still will get a hit kill that will make you feel a beginner, this fact is out of our control is just what the class is, a light class with low hp and no resistance, unless you sacrifice some damage stats to get some defensive hope what cant be solve the problem

Grimjack defintly shows a different story here realistically. 

13 minutes ago, Huldrelokk.6598 said:

- Hammer choosed looks like just to fill the pool of options to use the weapon, Hammer was like Elementalist, forgeted

I think it's pretty decent I think it has flaws but the weapon compared to beta 1 was a massive improvement realistically. 

I do think hammer could be great. 

[Huldrelokk.6598]

3 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Grimjack defintly shows a different story here realistically. 

We are talking about normal players playing the game, we cant never use players out of the bubble to validate viability of something.
 

4 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Have you heard the saying. Doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results is a sign of insanity? 

If Anet have trashed 2 ranged weapons why would you beleive they'd do it different on a third? 

Because they need, i prefer believe about a serious enterprise looking for improvements and with employees with enough neurons to make a team reunion to discuss like us.
 

6 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

But it actually does realistically. 

Hybrid weaver is a 39.5k DPS. There are only 2 other speccs which hold that level of dps realistically. 

The problem isnt we can't compete with other proffessions as a pure DPS. Because we very much can. The issue is pure DPS builds have no place in the current meta with the supports level of damage with existing builds. 

That's the point, why play with Weaver 39.5k with hard work envolved and high risk of die in the middle of the fight if we can do the same thing with classes doing the same thing with more survivability? Its all about efficiency, i really really love the class but now i play for fun when is applicable (WvW still is very fun).

 

12 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Because this is a mmorpg. And in mmorpgs difficulty cannot be considered when balancing a specc. 

Ironically I can do more DPS on my weaver then my DH, Weavers rotation is long, but more forgiving when not done perfectly then DHs. 

Difficult options exist for those who find it fun. Not directly for rewards. 

On this point i agree, we can recover rotation mistakes with more efficiency than a DH.

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, Huldrelokk.6598 said:

We are talking about normal players playing the game, we cant never use players out of the bubble to validate viability of something

Grimjack is a normal player, he's just a player who spent a vast amount of time learning. Elementalist is susposed to be a challenging proffession and the harder choice, thus u can't rly do that. 

You can't buff a proffession til the average player can do good with it leaving players such as grimjack to be ridiculously overpowered.

Every other proffession is balanced in that same fashion, the issue is the difficulty of other proffessions are easier therefore it doesn't feel so steep. 

3 minutes ago, Huldrelokk.6598 said:

Because they need, i prefer believe about a serious enterprise looking for improvements and with employees with enough neurons to make a team reunion to discuss like us.

The improvement would be the reworking of core ranged concepts for the sake of versatility and benefitting alot elite speccs.

Fixing the situation with a new elite weapon simply postpones the problem til the following expansion. 

4 minutes ago, Huldrelokk.6598 said:

That's the point, why play with Weaver 39.5k with hard work envolved and high risk of die in the middle of the fight if we can do the same thing with classes doing the same thing with more survivability? Its all about efficiency, i really really love the class but now i play for fun when is applicable (WvW still is very fun).

Because the challenging option exists for players who have s enjoyment of harder things. Not for s reward. 

I don't find weaver "hard work" having fun is never hard work. 

A bad DH won't do maximum DPS on a DH a bad soulbeast won't get past 30k by the end of its second burst rotation. 

Every proffession has this, in sub par hands it doesn't perform well ofcourse however elementalist having a harder curve will mean that less make it through the bracket but that's fine. 

[Huldrelokk.6598]

7 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Because the challenging option exists for players who have s enjoyment of harder things. Not for s reward. 

I don't find weaver "hard work" having fun is never hard work. 

A bad DH won't do maximum DPS on a DH a bad soulbeast won't get past 30k by the end of its second burst rotation. 

Every proffession has this, in sub par hands it doesn't perform well ofcourse however elementalist having a harder curve will mean that less make it through the bracket but that's fine. 

Unfortunately at some moments we just need complete the content, i enjoy Elementalist by the challenge too but nowadays don't care much how much you know about a class, unless you are a knowned player, you will be forced to accept the meta and enjoy content with what the group demands and Elementalist are out, the challenge can keep, this dont need exclude the needing of more friendly options on the class, every class can be putted on the pot of  "challenge" if you choose the build to it, Celestial Weaver for example is strong, easy to play and almost immortal playing WvW, but... i understand your point.

[Puck.3697]

10 minutes ago, Huldrelokk.6598 said:

Unfortunately at some moments we just need complete the content, i enjoy Elementalist by the challenge too but nowadays don't care much how much you know about a class, unless you are a knowned player, you will be forced to accept the meta and enjoy content with what the group demands and Elementalist are out, the challenge can keep, this dont need exclude the needing of more friendly options on the class, every class can be putted on the pot of  "challenge" if you choose the build to it, Celestial Weaver for example is strong, easy to play and almost immortal playing WvW, but... i understand your point

No one needs the meta the content in this games a joke realistically. The raids got cleared by a mighty teapot doing a raid of level 74 core proffessions. 

[Huldrelokk.6598]

44 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

No one needs the meta the content in this games a joke realistically. The raids got cleared by a mighty teapot doing a raid of level 74 core proffessions. 

We cant consider streamers and entertainment experiments to measure or not the viability of something as i said before.

[Puck.3697]

21 minutes ago, Huldrelokk.6598 said:

We cant consider streamers and entertainment experiments to measure or not the viability of something as i said before.

But it does realistically. He did it with a random group from pugs. And no on struggled. 

You have some idea that you cannot ever be as good as them. Ofcourse you can be providing you wanted to be, same for everyone. 

It just takes practice. 

Snoecrows in speedruns die hundreds of times before doing what they do. Everytime 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Borked.6824]

16 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Counterpoint 1: Virtuoso. Harbinger. Specter. Arenanet clearly hasn't decided that melee is the only game in town, it's just elementalist, engineer, and warrior that they refuse to add additional ranged options to.

Anet may have not decided, but the playerbase surely will.  These specs will be ghosts in a few months.  The potential that Anet knows that and still developed these classes the way they did might be the more unsettling thought.

[Despond.2174]

They had such a good chance to do something like an Elementalist BOW build. I am sure we'd all be dancing on the streets with an elite spec like that.

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, Borked.6824 said:

Anet may have not decided, but the playerbase surely will.  These specs will be ghosts in a few months.  The potential that Anet knows that and still developed these classes the way they did might be the more unsettling thought

They always do end up this way.

Just look at staff weaver. They intentionally nerfed staff and power crept sword til it was melee. Weaver actually did revitalise staff until Anet intervened. 

The fact this immediately happened and people still have faith is surprising. 

[Puck.3697]

2 minutes ago, Despond.2174 said:

They had such a good chance to do something like an Elementalist BOW build. I am sure we'd all be dancing on the streets with an elite spec like that.

That rly does depend if the specc was good. .

If we got a ranged weapon that was trash and was working out as we will be going Dagger/focus instead people would just move their anger to the balancing topic. 

Core used staff. Til they nerfed staff. 

Staff returned with tempest. To be nerfed some more. 

Staff returned with weaver. To get nerfed even more. 

Why do u have such faith in this longbow build knowing Anet have intentionally gone out their way to prevent ranged builds gaining strength? And only power crept it's melee alternatives? 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[scerevisiae.1972]

I think Ele had space for another ranged option besides staff/sceptre for sure, even if it were "just" an offhand, but the real problem with hammer is that it's 2/3rds melee and only 1/3rd 600 range.

2 elements semi-ranged, 2 elements pure melee.

IMO, that's just plain stupid.

Should have been, 2/3rd 600 ranged, maybe based around 600 range cone AOEs like i suggest in another thread, a few melee skills, and maybe 1-2 ~900 range attacks.

Now *that* could have been cool. But instead we get this POS.

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by scerevisiae.1972

[fuzzyp.6295]

9 hours ago, Despond.2174 said:

They had such a good chance to do something like an Elementalist BOW build. I am sure we'd all be dancing on the streets with an elite spec like that.

I feel like folks are saying that now, but it wouldn't be long before we hear the same old song Eles have been singing since 2013: I cant DPS because I'm always down. 

Good sustain/defense, long range or good damage. Pick two, because Ele will never get all three.

 

Edit: well I guess long range pure condi could but ele will never get a truly pure condi weapon.

Edited January 28, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295

[Puck.3697]

5 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

I feel like folks are saying that now, but it wouldn't be long before we hear the same old song Eles have been singing since 2013: I cant DPS because I'm always down. 

Good sustain/defense, long range or good damage. Pick two, because Ele will never get all three.

 

Edit: well I guess long range pure condi could but ele will never get a truly pure condi weapon.

Agreed, ele wouldn't be truely ranged cause ranged weapons users still stack with melee, the issue is because other proffessions are naturally tanky which means the loss of the active sustain with ranged weapons don't affect them, also weapon swap means they can still access them. 

Ranged playstyles are primarily found use In metas or more kiting styled solo builds which staff weaver is ironically a very good option for this. 

Staff weaver is a meta build for open world content. So we don't need another ranged weapon to fill that exact same role. 

I'm afraid elementalists ranged weapons don't even get 2. 

Massively because our weapons do everything, and 2 handed weapons tend to be more potent on this factor because they can't have off hands to change the dynamic. 

So 2 handed weapons tend to fulfill every role deeper making them far more hybridized forcing a harder DPS nerf. Hence why hammer ain't amazing either. 

1handed weapons tend to fit better as focus has proven to be a amazing offhand hence why it's held its value persistently in every build of elementalist so far. 

I don't think ranged weapons would be the fix players I want, because people assume it would be good, or assume it's going to be a upgrade to what we have today. 

We will just see the next ranged weapon players are screeching for reworks for. The reason ranged playstyles aren't used in competitive DPS builds is because Anet have nerfed the ranged weapon everytime 

Staff weaver was a 46k DPS build, it was anets decision to absolutely obliterate that build and power creep sword. 

If I had any faith that Anet would do a ranged playstyle properly. I'd throw the hat in and state it'd be welcome. But I just think Anet would half kitten it and then we will just see them power creep a D/D build to replace it. 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[draxynnic.3719]

You're still holding to a "instanced endgame PvE is the only mode that matters" mindset.

When in truth, it really isn't. I don't know about the veracity, but I've heard that the percentage of the actual playerbase that plays raids, fractals, and/or strikes is in the single digits. It's certainly a minority, which is something that streamers such as Mighty Teapot are concerned about because it's such a minority that ArenaNet doesn't consider it worth putting resources into. Strikes - and this includes the EoD strikes - are just story mode and/or open world bossfights that have been rebalanced for a larger group, because that's a way for ArenaNet to throw a bone to endgame players without spending much more in the way of resources than they already have. And I think the last time that an endgame boss didn't just reuse a model that already existed might have been Wing 6.

That's the reality. Your mode* isn't the only one that people are playing. Melee stack-and-smack meta works in your mode because bosses are dumb and ArenaNet has yet to introduce mechanics into an endgame bossfight to force ranged that can't simply be healed through (greens on Vale Guardian, torches on Pugskinner, and so on). News flash: Melee weapons are better than ranged weapons if you can get away with staying in melee because of course they are: if a ranged weapon was better than a melee weapon even if you were staying in melee, that would be a balance concern.

But ranged weapons absolutely are important in other modes. Pure ranged builds, let alone builds that have some melee and some ranged options, exist in PvP. Ranged attacks, particularly ranged attacks that aren't projectiles (that's the real reason people complain about virtuoso, btw, apart from people who just can't accept mesmer without clones) are important in WvW. Melee stack-and-smack rarely works against open world bosses unless you have a really organised map, and some are explicitly designed so that it doesn't work (or at least doesn't work in every phase) at all. And, you know what? All it would take is one endgame encounter designer to go "kitten it, I'm going to give this boss phases where it is literally impossible to melee them", and you'll need ranged for endgame PvE content as well. And the "favours ranged" elementalist doesn't have a single elite specialisation that is optimised to do that.

Based on your comments in other threads, I get the impression that you like the "spellsword" archetype, combining melee weapon use with magic. You know what? I do too. Warrior/elementalist was the second character I made after GW1 released (might have had one in testing too, I can't remember now). But you know what? Weaver covered that. Catalyst is now doubling up on covering that. Tempest is more of a "close range spellcaster" archetype than a "spellsword" archetype, but if you think that's not a specialisation intended to fight in melee ranges, you need to go back to how ArenaNet marketed it prior to release: it's clearly stated to be intended for frontline use with dagger, and things like Lightning Orb aren't intended to be shot off into the distance as a ranged attack, but as something you run along with. You could even argue that a number of soldiers count: guardian (particularly if you go heavy on fire-themed skills), some revenant builds, and to some extent even berserker and spellbreaker. There's also sword mesmer and axe mirage if you're not picky about the magic being elemental in nature, and chill reaper even if you are.

Apart from quickness, and a different set of weapon skills, what exactly does Catalyst offer that weaver or tempest doesn't already do?

And what about the people who'd prefer to play a more 'classic' elementalist theme (even with the acceptance that for melee stack-and-smack encounters, they'll likely switch to a melee build)? As of the end of next month, the "favours ranged" elementalist will have more weapons that are oriented towards melee combat that aren't. That's just ridiculous. Mesmer and necromancer aren't in that situation, and those were professions that were always supposed to have a strong melee subtheme by scholar standards.

Stop being selfish, and let people who play other game modes and other interpretations of elementalist have something.

 

PS On the "what do people want" question: People were complaining about elementalist getting another melee weapon as soon as hammer got leaked. It picked up again once people realised that the "it has a mix of 'midrange' ranged and melee attacks" claim was a phantasm and in practice it was even more melee-oriented than dagger. These threads keep popping up independently, started by different people and with different people contributing, but it's always the same small group of people arguing against it - you, Obtena with their "whatever the company does is by definition right regardless of what the customers actually want" arguments, and a couple of others. If I was inclined to go digging, I think there was a poll before the releases on what people wanted for a new elementalist weapon, and suffice it to say that melee options weren't winning. Based on what people are saying on the forum (and keep in mind that forum-goers are probably more likely to play endgame PvE content and therefore to care about what works in that sort of content) there definitely seems to be a lot more demand for more support for ranged elementalist than there is for Yet Another Melee Elite Specialisation.

 

*I'm describing it as such not because I don't play that mode myself, but because it really does seem to be the only one you care about. I noticed you completely brushed off my point about there being some bounties and so on where melee just isn't always possible.

Edited January 30, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Huldrelokk.6598]

On 1/27/2022 at 4:00 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

But it does realistically. He did it with a random group from pugs. And no on struggled. 

You have some idea that you cannot ever be as good as them. Ofcourse you can be providing you wanted to be, same for everyone. 

It just takes practice. 

Snoecrows in speedruns die hundreds of times before doing what they do. Everytime 

Your reality is just about PvE game mode, long range is useful outside of this game mode and we have a big community outside Aerodrome and Fractals.

[fuzzyp.6295]

While I don't fully agree with the idea that PvE game mode being the be all and end all, as someone who loves PvP and WvW, if this is going to be discussed I also have to raise a question: when has an Elementalist range build ever been truly meta for competitive formats?

sPvP Staff used to be good at wiping the first mid fight of an encounter but after that you're basically walking points for any competent roamer. You'd be lucky to cast a lava font and a half channeled meteor before you were back at your spawn. That's been the status quo for like, years at this point. It's only gotten worse but thats because Staff has been nerfed and others power creeped, thats an issue with the weapon not the spec. (Way Late EDIT: There was a point where Bunker Eles were using Staff now that I recall, I think near the start of HoT when we got out first real taste of insane defensive boons classes? But I still recall it was second to D/D WET at the time as a choice to run and overall not as good as Scrapper and didn't last as long. And I'm pretty sure Focus was also used with Dagger now that I think about it.)

Scepter was good for like, a year or two and always a decent off choice. But I haven't seen anyone seriously running Scepter in sPvP since around the time PoF dropped. But you know what has been meta? Daggers up and through 2016 and then Sword from 2017 till today, both melee... (for reference, I'm usually playing around Plat 2-3, perhaps its different in other tiers, but game balance is usually top down anyway... I haven't heard its much different in Legendary. EDIT: I should i add, I haven't been playing much recently, but unless the meta has been shaken up in the last few months I'm pretty confident this is still the standard.)

WvW on the other hand. Staff has been and still is a top choice for the Elementalist in the Zerg Gameplay/ Although to be fair... even in zergs most are running Dagger and Warhorn Tempest now, so again... meta as melee. This was probably the only mode where competitive ranged Elementalists existed though. And still exist, Staff is still used in many zergs as  an option for Weaver. In fact, you almost never see Sword Weavers in a zerg, only Staff Weaver. Which I find interesting related to one of the arguments against Hammer Catalyst but thats not the point here.

Sure, Sword and Scepter can be considered meta for the roaming scene. Roaming is the only joy I get out of this game at the moment. But we'd be kidding ourselves to suggest that WvW is balanced around small scale combat where Sword and Scepter shine. But even if we consider this, again.. Celestial Core D/D Ele was king until Sword took its place with Fresh Air Scepter as a good niche build but never considered any more or less better than daggers or sword. Melee as Meta.

While I don't agree with the original points that PvE raids are all melee focused and thereby the balance should be focused on melee, range elementalist builds haven't really been shining examples of variety in other game modes either. Only WvW is the one exception, but only in Zergs, and often nowadays competed with against Melee options.  You can see this as a justification for another ranged weapon (which I am all for, by the way) to finally bring ranged elementalist in the meta again or a justification as to why ANet continues to focus on melee since its the predominant style anyway.

Personally I'm excited for Staff Catalyst and Hammer Catalyst.

Edited January 31, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295
spelling, clarifation.

[Downstate.4697]

Anets problem is that instead of fixing things, they repackage it in an elite spec and sell it to you again. 

[Jski.6180]

Anet went all in on raids for bot elite spec and over all balancing to the point where they changed the very nature of there game moving from a non 3 class type healing tank dps to a full on 3 class type and the ui just dose not fit as well as most of the core game effects. Nearly no one plays them knowing this anet still pushing raid like content to the games doom. You dont need to be long ranged if your just stacking to do dps and support as started before here.

I still think wvw is the "best" place to get an ideal of what balancing is and should be. 600 is not long enofe and melee 130-240 is far worst for a low hp / def class unless that class has active def like weaver sadly catalyses dose not have this def nor dose tempest.

[Puck.3697]

17 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You're still holding to a "instanced endgame PvE is the only mode that matters" mindset.

When in truth, it really isn't. I don't know about the veracity, but I've heard that the percentage of the actual playerbase that plays raids, fractals, and/or strikes is in the single digits

Staff weaver is the current meta build in solo play 

Here's the fact, people who only solo content have their ranged build already if someone's arguing none currently exist they aren't talking open world. 

If you want a ranged counterpart for solo content why aren't you using staff? It's a great solo build right now. 

And before we talk about "sustain" or "tanking". Any sustain / damage flaws staff has would be shared with a new ranged weapon realistically.