Please don't remove boon heavy meta

[Zenith.7301]

On 1/28/2022 at 6:37 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

Heavy boon meta isn't creating trinity. It's unbalancing PvE content while power creeping proffessions insanely. 

Raids have trinity via having a tank system and healers existing effectively. A DPS providing a boo. (I.E Condi Firebrand) doesn't create a trinity if anything just bolsters the quantity of damage your spamming. 

 A trinity boon wise would be to go back and make this game alike FFXIVs role creation. 

You would have proffessions that are generally focused on mainly support capabilities and their elites generally change its way of supporting. That do low DPS but hold alot of the raid DPS in. 

Due to how elites work tho this won't exist, so you end up with these builds that do all the damage, provide all the boons, and are spammed in content excluding others. 

Heavy boon meta, is responsible for PvE unbalancing, power creep making PvE difficulty a absolute joke, and alienating certain proffessions. 

What goods a trinity system if the game at its hardest equalises with WoWs LFR function lol. 

 

 

Tanks aren't even used in 90% of the fights, what are you talking about? Most fights can be 1 healed. The vast majority of damage in raids is easily avoidable with a resource you generate in less than 10 seconds.

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

Tanks aren't even used in 90% of the fights, what are you talking about? Most fights can be 1 healed. The vast majority of damage in raids is easily avoidable with a resource you generate in less than 10 seconds.

I ment they are implemented to create a level of trinity. Not to the success they've managed. 

Boons aren't rly related to the trinity system as alot of boon builds these days are DPS builds. 

[Zenith.7301]

4 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Problem is not boons themselves, its who provide it. In meta party/squad, ~70-80% of all boons are provided by 1 class (HFB), rest, usually, by alacren or alacrage. Boon needs some spreading around, or at least classes that can match HFB giving options to play something else then 2 set classe in support slots (I am speaking strictly PvE)

 

 

You can spread boons all you want, FB will still dominate because their kit is so overloaded they bring CC and reflects on top.

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

You can spread boons all you want, FB will still dominate because their kit is so overloaded they bring CC and reflects on top.

Well yeah "support builds" don't rly work massively well in gw2 systems. For you to make support options apart of a trinity system. You would need solid support options. 

Let's take FFXIV for example, the reason a support became apart of that's trinity. Is because when you pick ninja you are by default a support role. Which means by default you take a DPS penalty for the offensive support you bring to the RDPS. Which equalises. 

In gw2 you can't just make one proffessions DPS across the board low and repeatively launch support builds onto them. Because we exist via elite speccs and builds. 

So the system just clash's and creates these issues.

[Bakeneko.5826]

2 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

In gw2 you can't just make one proffessions DPS across the board low and repeatively launch support builds onto them. Because we exist via elite speccs and builds. 

Actually, you can. Make first elite trait (one that enables player to take elite spec weapon) to give negative values to damage and positive values to boon duration or healing, effectively gutting base class with elite selection to one role - dps, support, healer and differentiate what bonuses get add to what class. F.e. toughness and boon duration to chrono, healing power and ... vitality(?) to fb, etc. It can be  made into PvE only to keep other modes not gutted. It could work to establish hard trinity with some elites plainly good at some things and bad at others, I am no game dev, but that would be one (be it bad) way to do it

Edited January 30, 2022 by Bakeneko.5826

[Jski.6180]

If you truly do not wish it to be removed then every class needs to bring something to play in the content of the boon heavy meta. Just playing a class that is the "best" at it and leave the other classes out in the cold will not do. Every class on some level should bring a powerful boon to the table as well as a counter to a powerful boon. We need more boon strips, poison effects and slows.

I say add in a condi that makes ppl "burn" though there boons faster say 33% to 66% (no ideal why ppl love there 3s) where a 3 sec boon will only last for 2 sec in game where ever 1 sec of the boon becomes .77 sec or even .44 sec.

[Avatara.1042]

A 'holy trinity' of 3 guardians?

[The Boz.2038]

9 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

If you truly do not wish it to be removed then every class needs to bring something to play in the content of the boon heavy meta

This is the solution I'm hoping for. Allow everyone to provide at least one of the "important" boons, and nerf the heck out of the pure ooga booga DPS slot.

[Puck.3697]

5 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

This is the solution I'm hoping for. Allow everyone to provide at least one of the "important" boons, and nerf the heck out of the pure ooga booga DPS slot.

Give core speccs unique boons. Remove the current system in place for this. 

We can't have elites just stacking more and more boons into a single build because it's what's driving this meta into toxicity. 

We don't need every elite to add another boon to the list of options. Just simply remove this overlap all together. 

Guardian - Stability + Aegis 

Elementalist - regeneration + protection

Warrior - Increased physical damage + resolution

Revenant - increased magical damage + crit chance 

Necromancer - Life leech + Vitality

Thief - movement speed + Venom share. 

Mesmer - Quickness + alacrity

Ranger - ability range + Vigor 

Engineer - Toughness + Barrier 

(Just a example) 

Then elites focus on changing the playstyle but add no further utility / boons to the game. The current system is too convoluted as we have 15 entries for the same role to provide the same boon so micro differences become the factor of relevance.

Even tho quickness firebrand and quickness harbinger provide the same amount of quickness. Firebrand wins due to providing aegis and stab. As a example of this issue. 

They can have their self only boons but imho as far as group or raid support goes limit the lines down to be unique to each proffession and don't overlap them. 

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Zenith.7301]

11 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Give core speccs unique boons. Remove the current system in place for this. 

We can't have elites just stacking more and more boons into a single build because it's what's driving this meta into toxicity. 

We don't need every elite to add another boon to the list of options. Just simply remove this overlap all together. 

Guardian - Stability + Aegis 

Elementalist - regeneration + protection

Warrior - Increased physical damage + resolution

Revenant - increased magical damage + crit chance 

Necromancer - Life leech + Vitality

Thief - movement speed + Venom share. 

Mesmer - Quickness + alacrity

Ranger - ability range + Vigor 

Engineer - Toughness + Barrier 

(Just a example) 

Then elites focus on changing the playstyle but add no further utility / boons to the game. The current system is too convoluted as we have 15 entries for the same role to provide the same boon so micro differences become the factor of relevance.

Even tho quickness firebrand and quickness harbinger provide the same amount of quickness. Firebrand wins due to providing aegis and stab. As a example of this issue. 

They can have their self only boons but imho as far as group or raid support goes limit the lines down to be unique to each proffession and don't overlap them. 

 

 

 

 

 

Ability range means nothing when boon provision and particularly healing plus baiting mechanics means you will always stack in melee.

 

Similarly, vigor is worthless because no boss ahs a mechanic that eneds frequent dodges,vigor is only relevant to a few specs because their dodges give them extra damage.

[Puck.3697]

2 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

Ability range means nothing when boon provision and particularly healing plus baiting mechanics means you will always stack in melee.

 

Similarly, vigor is worthless because no boss ahs a mechanic that eneds frequent dodges,vigor is only relevant to a few specs because their dodges give them extra damage.

im not a dev and i wont pretend to be creative enough to create 9 balanced interesting Sets of buffs as i said it was a Example realistically.

but my core concept i think is very correct, I feel stacking Elites upon Elites just adding more and more boons and boon spread continously has created a boon heavy meta in a very toxic way. i feel it could be simplified heavily. but giving more Unique buffs at core level and then simply Stack its Elites as Variants of playing that Proffession in DPS / Healing / Tanking Catagories.

this will end stacking at minimum will atleast go somewhat towards closer then it current is between for example a Alac Ren and a Weaver in demand in raids/Groups.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Jski.6180]

16 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Give core speccs unique boons. Remove the current system in place for this. 

We can't have elites just stacking more and more boons into a single build because it's what's driving this meta into toxicity. 

We don't need every elite to add another boon to the list of options. Just simply remove this overlap all together. 

Guardian - Stability + Aegis 

Elementalist - regeneration + protection

Warrior - Increased physical damage + resolution

Revenant - increased magical damage + crit chance 

Necromancer - Life leech + Vitality

Thief - movement speed + Venom share. 

Mesmer - Quickness + alacrity

Ranger - ability range + Vigor 

Engineer - Toughness + Barrier 

(Just a example) 

Then elites focus on changing the playstyle but add no further utility / boons to the game. The current system is too convoluted as we have 15 entries for the same role to provide the same boon so micro differences become the factor of relevance.

Even tho quickness firebrand and quickness harbinger provide the same amount of quickness. Firebrand wins due to providing aegis and stab. As a example of this issue. 

They can have their self only boons but imho as far as group or raid support goes limit the lines down to be unique to each proffession and don't overlap them. 

 

 

 

You would have to make the weaker boons significantly stronger then what they are now.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

23 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Give core speccs unique boons. Remove the current system in place for this. 

We can't have elites just stacking more and more boons into a single build because it's what's driving this meta into toxicity. 

We don't need every elite to add another boon to the list of options. Just simply remove this overlap all together. 

Guardian - Stability + Aegis 

Elementalist - regeneration + protection

Warrior - Increased physical damage + resolution

Revenant - increased magical damage + crit chance 

Necromancer - Life leech + Vitality

Thief - movement speed + Venom share. 

Mesmer - Quickness + alacrity

Ranger - ability range + Vigor 

Engineer - Toughness + Barrier 

(Just a example) 

Then elites focus on changing the playstyle but add no further utility / boons to the game. The current system is too convoluted as we have 15 entries for the same role to provide the same boon so micro differences become the factor of relevance.

Even tho quickness firebrand and quickness harbinger provide the same amount of quickness. Firebrand wins due to providing aegis and stab. As a example of this issue. 

They can have their self only boons but imho as far as group or raid support goes limit the lines down to be unique to each proffession and don't overlap them. 

 

 

 

Are you implying that those would be the only boons that class applies in an AoE? Warrior's been doing Might, Fury, and Swiftness in AoE since the beginning. I think it would be prudent for the devs to take a hard look at how many boons are being allowed to be doled out in an AoE for sure, but if you want to start limiting what classes have access too then you'll find some hard choices would need to be made.

Though to be honest a large majority of the boon problem could be solved by giving FB a much more stringent "tradeoff."  

[Puck.3697]

8 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Are you implying that those would be the only boons that class applies in an AoE? Warrior's been doing Might, Fury, and Swiftness in AoE since the beginning. I think it would be prudent for the devs to take a hard look at how many boons are being allowed to be doled out in an AoE for sure, but if you want to start limiting what classes have access too then you'll find some hard choices would need to be made.

Though to be honest a large majority of the boon problem could be solved by giving FB a much more stringent "tradeoff."  

Yes effectively... im not saying annihiliate any self-boon applying build in the game but to simply bring down the quantity of boons Every proffessino can now pulse as a large reason we see these problems is because we have Proffessions which fill every role with a build causing stacking to become a Meta.

I think it'd be a Dramatic change, but i'd say the current boon meta has so many overlaps now theres no Area for Proffessions to come forward as a Example

Quickness Harbinger and Quickness Cataylst are already redundent Because of Tank Chrono role compression or Quickness FIrebrand already existing. Mechanist Is already kinda redundent because of Renegade, even if u drop Renegade to 5 man, Mechanist is just a "option" among many. it doesnt have the Same impact as for example when Renegade came out.

I think everytime they Dilute the boons they take away some of its Impact when given to a Proffession and future wise i think its going to reach a problem.

For example: Wtf do u do for Guardians 4th Elite now?.. give it a Pure DPS.. to then never be used because it has 10 different boon builds?

i dont think continously diluting Boons by just lobbing them everywhere is a Path forward for Elites and i think the problem is Starting to appear now, which long term is going to get worse. giving evertyone access to everything will eventually drive Metas Where they just simply find a Slight edge for some proffessions over others and the others get ignored due to bringing nothing unique.

imho When u bring X Proffession into ur raid u should be Excited because it brings this unique utility that will go really well with the comp u have at that moment... or maybe calculate u have Majority magical damage present so u might want X Proffession.. but a Physical based DPS Team may want the other Option. i think proffessions could be more unique. and hold higher value by more unique options rather then piting them agaisnt each othjer to which one Edges out the Other and everyone just stacks it.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Nash.2681]

There's some dilemma to all this.

1) If you lower possible boon uptime / add boonstrip and thus force players to time their boons (e.g. for burst phases), they'll have to play more reactive than proactive (what I mean by that is they'll have to adapt to the situation and think about what skill to use instead of trying to simply stick to a rotation) = will make the game harder and probably upset many players

2) If you add more class specific unique abilities = as long as they are impactfull, it'll lowers class diversity since people will even more start to look for specific classes (and if they're just meh, nothing will change) which will result in longer party search times

3) Large parts of the game are already designed and balanced around the current boon situation. A rework would be extremly time consuming and costly, so probably won't happen.

 

I really have no clue how to adress the current situation without creating a worse imbalance which will be even more unhealthy to the game.

[BobbyT.7192]

Would it be better to go back to combo support playstyle? Nuke alot of the aoe and self buffs from the classes, and revitalize the combo system?

Make combo meta again?

Any reason why boons like quickness, alacrity, stab, and etc couldn't be allotted to a combo finisher/field. Could fire field give more than 3 might for a single blast?

[The Boz.2038]

Make combos relevant? What is this madness!? The burny little bolt thingies are *peak gameplay*!

[Valisha.8650]

Please do remove boon heavy meta. Or at least spread the boons evenly.

Tysm.

[Mell.4873]

On 1/29/2022 at 8:04 AM, DeceiverX.8361 said:

The lack of trinity is the reason why an overwhelming majority of people joined GW2 in the first place in 2012.

Trinity play is a boiled-down and oversimplified version of the required skill for players across the board to succeed, creates toxic environments where one player failing can bring down groups and waste a lot of time, and drastically reduces an overwhelming majority of the tactics and strategy available in the PvP modes.

The patch frequency and balance isn't even close to being tight enough to make this gameplay compelling, either, and specifically boons do not have healthy counters since overabundance of corrupts/strips negates build diversity even out of their desired context.

Boons were always intended to be short-term power gains.  Look no further than For Great Justice being considered a good utility years ago, and a total of 10% boon duration being worth sacrificing your runes in the case of ZvZ for a lot of people.

Honestly, I'd rather no boons at all than what we have right now.

I believe it does provide alot of wiggle room since not every class can provide the same boons and in the same way. I mean mirage alac can only provide a 100% uptime during combat but is more consistent while renegade is a one time skill with a long duration so very inconsistent if you miss the aoe. 

[Mell.4873]

Ultimately I believe nothing should change except for maybe how defiance bars work since they should be more frequent and harder to break. 

[Puck.3697]

19 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Ultimately I believe nothing should change except for maybe how defiance bars work since they should be more frequent and harder to break. 

you equate, the fact 3 of 9 Proffessions are spammed in 87% Of Group and Raid Content by current statistics.

To stack ontop of a lack of versatility and diversity.

Ontop of a huge power creep which is plaguing PvE and Removing any challange it remotely has.

Should not be changed? Like are u a Arena net employee undercover or what?... GW2 is bleeding in popularity. Its almost non-existant on the Quaterly charts provided by NCSoft and is by far at its Absolute Lowest how Much more does the game need to die before you understand that could potientally be a problem.

The Playerbase are hemorraging and theres no new players joining. this game Does need to change. the Meta Does need to change, and Improvements are absolutely vital right now if you want this game to live beyond 6 months of EoDs launch, because right now this games falling down a hole realistically.

PvE Content is a Joke. its Widly imbalanced and everyones bored of the same 3 proffessions being spammed.

PvP Content is completely imbalanced and the Meta is one of the most boring things that could exist.

WvWvW has been abandoned for years

Dungeons Still exist yet have no purpose. Fractals have been sat getting stale with no rejurvanation, DRMs were a major failing point and Strikes got a tiny bit of Popularity but didnt exist for long,

Raid mechanics Need dynamic, Stack and Slap meta is boring AF. stop locking groups into blobs with boon requirements and create Real mechanics to create a Need for both ranged and Melee options.

Open world content has become mind numbingly easy to the drastic levels where its common to just now AFK World bosses and leech the rewards.

and your sat here seriously saying "nothing needs to change" Sometimes i'm so grateful anet do ignore us, and this thread is a Perfect example of those moments.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

you equate, the fact 3 of 9 Proffessions are spammed in 87% Of Group and Raid Content by current statistics.

To stack ontop of a lack of versatility and diversity.

Ontop of a huge power creep which is plaguing PvE and Removing any challange it remotely has.

Should not be changed? Like are u a Arena net employee undercover or what?... GW2 is bleeding in popularity. Its almost non-existant on the Quaterly charts provided by NCSoft and is by far at its Absolute Lowest how Much more does the game need to die before you understand that could potientally be a problem.

The Playerbase are hemorraging and theres no new players joining. this game Does need to change. the Meta Does need to change, and Improvements are absolutely vital right now if you want this game to live beyond 6 months of EoDs launch, because right now this games falling down a hole realistically.

PvE Content is a Joke. its Widly imbalanced and everyones bored of the same 3 proffessions being spammed.

PvP Content is completely imbalanced and the Meta is one of the most boring things that could exist.

WvWvW has been abandoned for years

Dungeons Still exist yet have no purpose. Fractals have been sat getting stale with no rejurvanation, DRMs were a major failing point and Strikes got a tiny bit of Popularity but didnt exist for long,

Raid mechanics Need dynamic, Stack and Slap meta is boring AF. stop locking groups into blobs with boon requirements and create Real mechanics to create a Need for both ranged and Melee options.

Open world content has become mind numbingly easy to the drastic levels where its common to just now AFK World bosses and leech the rewards.

and your sat here seriously saying "nothing needs to change" Sometimes i'm so grateful anet do ignore us, and this thread is a Perfect example of those moments.

Don't worry, I'm sure skiffs and fishing will turn things right around. and if they don't then surely player housing in the next Living World season that will be immediately rushed out will fix things. /s

[Puck.3697]

7 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Don't worry, I'm sure skiffs and fishing will turn things right around. and if they don't then surely player housing in the next Living World season that will be immediately rushed out will fix things. /s

Yeah. We can stack them ontop of each other. 

So we can eventually reach the pedestal guardians revenants and necros sit upon! 😂😂😂

[Mell.4873]

19 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

you equate, the fact 3 of 9 Proffessions are spammed in 87% Of Group and Raid Content by current statistics.

To stack ontop of a lack of versatility and diversity.

Ontop of a huge power creep which is plaguing PvE and Removing any challange it remotely has.

Should not be changed? Like are u a Arena net employee undercover or what?... GW2 is bleeding in popularity. Its almost non-existant on the Quaterly charts provided by NCSoft and is by far at its Absolute Lowest how Much more does the game need to die before you understand that could potientally be a problem.

The Playerbase are hemorraging and theres no new players joining. this game Does need to change. the Meta Does need to change, and Improvements are absolutely vital right now if you want this game to live beyond 6 months of EoDs launch, because right now this games falling down a hole realistically.

PvE Content is a Joke. its Widly imbalanced and everyones bored of the same 3 proffessions being spammed.

PvP Content is completely imbalanced and the Meta is one of the most boring things that could exist.

WvWvW has been abandoned for years

Dungeons Still exist yet have no purpose. Fractals have been sat getting stale with no rejurvanation, DRMs were a major failing point and Strikes got a tiny bit of Popularity but didnt exist for long,

Raid mechanics Need dynamic, Stack and Slap meta is boring AF. stop locking groups into blobs with boon requirements and create Real mechanics to create a Need for both ranged and Melee options.

Open world content has become mind numbingly easy to the drastic levels where its common to just now AFK World bosses and leech the rewards.

and your sat here seriously saying "nothing needs to change" Sometimes i'm so grateful anet do ignore us, and this thread is a Perfect example of those moments.

Hmm I would agree with some of this but I would just stay stop playing and come back when the content you want comes out. It seems now days the most successful/popular MMOs have to stick around long enough for the content to become relevant. 

 

The meta is never set in stone I mean I play alac mirage and that is technically not best in slot. I even play it different by trying to spam short duration aegis which makes fractals very easy when it works. 

[Puck.3697]

42 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Hmm I would agree with some of this but I would just stay stop playing and come back when the content you want comes out. It seems now days the most successful/popular MMOs have to stick around long enough for the content to become relevant

You can disagree with any part you want, it's statistically proven. 

Quaterly reports are released by NCsoft showing this games earning and popularity. 

Wingman and more track all fractals and raids being done + the teams that do them. 

The content? I'm not asking for content. I'm asking for balance which does more then allow 3 proffessions to tower over the rest.