Viper Gear is not Condi Gear say it loud say it proud

[Stajan.4581]

Just now, Aravind.9610 said:

You tested it on a scourge which has very little difference between trailblazer's and viper's gear because it does very little power damage anyway. That only proves that most of your damage comes from conditions on both viper's and trailblazer's.

That is 100% incorrect. Direct damage is direct damage is direct damage. If you have a necro and a warrior with 1100 power and a stick and nothing to make their direct damage any better in any way they do the exact same damage and if they do not than someone made a big mistake in the coding of the game

[mindcircus.1506]

4 minutes ago, Stajan.4581 said:

The issue is that I do fractals and want to get to raids, as I want the legendary armour and WVW and PVP are just so screwed up that it is not worth the effort. Every single group I have ever tried to be in has said you are not running vipers vipers is the only true condi gear well its not condi gear as I have said and stated and shown by the use of proper words. Plus being a clicker I do not get around to skills and what not like they want so I need to build beefier char to survive. In some cases in fractals I am the last one standing and can take down the boss with 10-20% left on them. But than everyone cries about how long it is taking. I was running for trailblazers http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSABs+tjlNwAZhMNGJW6X5PXA-zRJYkRPfZ0RKESFI8BJI2DvGF8pB-e again the damage is a little lower but higher HP and higher barrier support

Have you tired playing better?

[Aravind.9610]

1 minute ago, Stajan.4581 said:

That is 100% incorrect. Direct damage is direct damage is direct damage. If you have a necro and a warrior with 1100 power and a stick and nothing to make their direct damage any better in any way they do the exact same damage and if they do not than someone made a big mistake in the coding of the game

Sure if you actually use a stick and not something like scepter on scourge and greatsword on warrior. Scepter is designed for condi damage on necro, whereas greatsword is for direct damage on warrior. Its like comparing apples and oranges.

[Stajan.4581]

2 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Thanks for sharing the build links.  That's much more productive than the discussion so far.

Had you noticed that much of what makes your build effective are just variations on a general theme that most scourge players employ when playing a condition build?  Certain things just make sense, right?  That's "the meta".  It's not some evil force telling players to go home if they don't use one specific build.  It's simply a reflection of what works for a certain type of build when used for a purpose. 

It's the same reason the build Roul used in his video is simply a slight variation on the builds I use.  He didn't copy me (that would be ridiculous!).  He just arrived at a similar conclusion because that's what works.

If common sense is what you call "META" than meta is a good thing common sense is normally best but not always. Not all things can be solved with common sense.

[AliamRationem.5172]

8 minutes ago, Stajan.4581 said:

The issue is that I do fractals and want to get to raids, as I want the legendary armour and WVW and PVP are just so screwed up that it is not worth the effort. Every single group I have ever tried to be in has said you are not running vipers vipers is the only true condi gear well its not condi gear as I have said and stated and shown by the use of proper words. Plus being a clicker I do not get around to skills and what not like they want so I need to build beefier char to survive. In some cases in fractals I am the last one standing and can take down the boss with 10-20% left on them. But than everyone cries about how long it is taking. I was running for trailblazers http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSABs+tjlNwAZhMNGJW6X5PXA-zRJYkRPfZ0RKESFI8BJI2DvGF8pB-e again the damage is a little lower but higher HP and higher barrier support

How did they know you were not wearing Viper gear in fractals?  Did you volunteer that information or was there an issue with your performance that initiated this conversation?

In fractals and strikes nobody would know unless you told them and why would anybody care?  I run T4 fractal pickups and fast 5 strikes in full Trailblazer all the time.  It's never been an issue because I perform more than adequately for the role I'm filling in the group.  However, I could not do so in raids because the toughness on my gear will cause the boss to fixate on me in certain encounters where toughness tanking is a thing.  This would be problematic for the group and they would ask me to change my gear.  As they should!

Edited February 27, 2022 by AliamRationem.5172

[Stajan.4581]

1 minute ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Have you tired playing better?

Have you tried shutting the hell up. I see you are one of those ppl who think they a god at the game and you are only King Shi# of kitten Island. You think that all players should play the same well not all players are the same. Get over yourself there King Shi# because you know what happens to kings most of them fall off their thrones and land on their heads

[Stajan.4581]

1 minute ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

How did they know you were not wearing Viper gear in fractals?  Did you volunteer that information or was there an issue with your performance that initiated this conversation?

In fractals and strikes nobody would know unless you told them and why would anybody care?  I run T4 fractal pickups and fast 5 strikes in full Trailblazer all the time.  It's never been an issue because I perform more than adequately for the role I'm filling in the group.  However, I could not do so in raids because the toughness on my gear will cause the boss to fixate on me in certain encounters where toughness tanking is a thing.  This would be problematic for the group and they would ask me to change my gear.  As they should!

No they complain that the damage is not up as high as other, because of ARC that kitten program. If ppl use it for themselves I have no issue with it is when they start saying not enough damage or what not boot that I have an issue with it.

 

[mindcircus.1506]

2 minutes ago, Stajan.4581 said:

Have you tried shutting the hell up. I see you are one of those ppl who think they a god at the game and you are only King Shi# of kitten Island. You think that all players should play the same well not all players are the same. Get over yourself there King Shi# because you know what happens to kings most of them fall off their thrones and land on their heads

You said you are trying to progress but cannot because you are not playing a Meta build.

This doesn't happen.

People call you out when your performance is poor.

Until then, no one cares.

[Stajan.4581]

Just now, Stajan.4581 said:

No they complain that the damage is not up as high as other, because of ARC that kitten program. If ppl use it for themselves I have no issue with it is when they start saying not enough damage or what not boot that I have an issue with it.

 

They should not ask you to change your gear, maybe ask you to do a different roll but not to change your gear that is just being toxic

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 minutes ago, Stajan.4581 said:

If common sense is what you call "META" than meta is a good thing common sense is normally best but not always. Not all things can be solved with common sense.

Call it whatever you like.  It's not a random coincidence that the build you linked is pretty close to what any condi scourge will run.  Much the same as condi sword weaver will always run fire/x/weaver, condi scourge will always run scepter with curses/x/scourge.  You can insert different gear, utilities, etc.  It doesn't really change the play style of the build.  That's meta.  You're again just getting hung up on a strawman argument you've made apparently in reaction to a bad experience you've recently had in fractals.

The meta is not the issue there.  I expect your problem is that you aren't performing as well as some other players expect you to for the content you're participating in.  I don't have enough information at this point to say more than that.  Perhaps they were just a-holes who nitpick damage in easy content like it matters?  Or perhaps you were legitimately causing a problem for some reason.  I doubt your build not exactly matching the build on SC was to blame for this in either case.

[Stajan.4581]

Just now, mindcircus.1506 said:

You said you are trying to progress but cannot because you are not playing a Meta build.

This doesn't happen.

People call you out when your performance is poor.

Until then, no one cares.

Let me ask you a question. Is 1 damage a second DPS ? if the answer is yes than someone is doing damage. Now if you happen to beat a raid boss lets say with 1 DPS a second from one person and the others are doing lets say 100 DPS a second what is the big deal if the boss gets killed. Yes it maybe a little slower but a win is a win is a win.

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 minutes ago, Stajan.4581 said:

Let me ask you a question. Is 1 damage a second DPS ? if the answer is yes than someone is doing damage. Now if you happen to beat a raid boss lets say with 1 DPS a second from one person and the others are doing lets say 100 DPS a second what is the big deal if the boss gets killed. Yes it maybe a little slower but a win is a win is a win.

Some players seek to validate themselves at the expense of others.  On the other hand, we're all playing the same game here and cooperative play requires...cooperation.  It's not incumbent upon any other player to carry us through content.  This is also why we have different types of content for different types of players.

This is not a justification.  I won't stand for players berating others over performance in a group.  I'd rather find something else to do with my time than listen to randoms snipe at each other in a video game.  But I also think it's inconsiderate to, for example, bring T1 performance to a T4 daily pickup. 

So I'm not exactly surprised when such players come into conflict and then try to play the victim.  That sort of passive aggression is as intolerable as the overt aggression of players who snipe at others over performance.  In my mind, both are equally wrong/annoying.

[Sarius.9285]

2 hours ago, Stajan.4581 said:

Snowcrows Is trash

wow okay, yea you make good arguments. You should form your own community with builds and guides 

[Sarius.9285]

27 minutes ago, Stajan.4581 said:

They should not ask you to change your gear, maybe ask you to do a different roll but not to change your gear that is just being toxic

 

no it's not. If you join a group as a "DPS" and your DPS is literally lower than the support roles, than you're just leeching off others. Which is toxic 

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Stajan.4581 I expect the way this discussion is going, this thread will be locked as soon as the mods view it.  However, in the interests of genuinely trying to help you or other players reading this, I want to be clear about the issues you're having and the only way of resolving them to achieve your stated goal.

You told us that your goal is to acquire legendary gear via raiding.  You cannot do this using Trailblazer gear unless you're willing to perform the role of tank in encounters that require it.  Otherwise you will need to use gear that does not include toughness.  If you are choosing to tank, then you need to make that clear to your group and you need to understand what is required and be able to perform the role adequately.  Be aware that the standard for this is higher than it is for for standard DPS roles.

The other thing that's clear is that your build is not your problem.  The build you linked (aside from the issues it will cause in certain raid encounters due to toughness) should be able to perform adequately by the numbers to complete any content in this game.  The fact that you are being routinely challenged regarding your performance is not due to your build.

Unfortunately, this means that your issue is with how you're playing.  If you wish to achieve your goal, you will have to improve your level of play.  The only other alternative is to have other players carry you through.  You will need to set that arrangement up beforehand with players who are aware of what you hope to achieve and what you're expecting them to do for you.  If you do otherwise (i.e. by joining a pickup group and hoping nobody says anything) you are being very inconsiderate and you will almost certainly invite the sort of conflicts you've described here in this thread. 

[StarPT.7431]

1 hour ago, Stajan.4581 said:

If everyone played the same than every single build that has the highest DPS would be fine but ppl play differently. Some ppl can not react as fast for dodging, some ppl can not see everything that is going on because there is so much on the screen. In the end Viper gear is not condi gear it is a hybred that is exactly the point I was making in the first place other have even agree with me. Yes I was being semantic, because most ppl use words for what they are not and they have to stop doing that. Words have meaning and using the right words for what the meaning is, is the only proper and right way to do it. 

 

Sure everyone should play what's fun for them and what suits best their playstyle, but when people present you proof that a certain playstyle and a certain build is effectively better you just can't deny it. It might not be usable for certain people but that doesn't change the fact it is the best.

[StarPT.7431]

1 hour ago, Stajan.4581 said:

The issue is that I do fractals and want to get to raids, as I want the legendary armour and WVW and PVP are just so screwed up that it is not worth the effort. Every single group I have ever tried to be in has said you are not running vipers vipers is the only true condi gear well its not condi gear as I have said and stated and shown by the use of proper words. Plus being a clicker I do not get around to skills and what not like they want so I need to build beefier char to survive. In some cases in fractals I am the last one standing and can take down the boss with 10-20% left on them. But than everyone cries about how long it is taking. I was running for trailblazers http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSABs+tjlNwAZhMNGJW6X5PXA-zRJYkRPfZ0RKESFI8BJI2DvGF8pB-e again the damage is a little lower but higher HP and higher barrier support

As I previously told you, you don't want to have higher toughness than base for raids, that can screw with toughness tank mechanics of some bosses. In fractals usually people don't care AFAIK.

[mindcircus.1506]

1 hour ago, Stajan.4581 said:

Let me ask you a question. Is 1 damage a second DPS ? if the answer is yes than someone is doing damage. Now if you happen to beat a raid boss lets say with 1 DPS a second from one person and the others are doing lets say 100 DPS a second what is the big deal if the boss gets killed. Yes it maybe a little slower but a win is a win is a win.

You've ignored many salient points in this thread and continue to deal in hypotheticals and whataboutism when challenged. What's clear is you are creating some strange narrative based on this imagined slot in a pretend team that is not yours because you are chosing to do 10% less damage in Trailblazer's gear instead of Vipers.
It never happened.
 

What's worse is you've dug yourself into this hole because you cannot wrap your head around a single fact:
Viper's gear offers the best statistical advantage when applied to a Condition Damage Build.
It is not always the best alternative (though it often is).
Viper's Gear never offers the best statistical advantage when applied to a Power Damage Build.
This is why Viper's Stats are refereed to as Condition Stats.

 

You've ignored this because you are, as has been pointed out, playing a semantic game.

 

As for "why" you would so wilfully ignore reality:

Your attempts to bang this drum in a number of places outside this forum answer this question.

 

If you think you are have something better to offer than Snowcrows (or any number of Youtubers who's comments you've attempted to push this narrative in), then do it.
Until then all you are doing is twisting words to try and make yourself feel better.

[VeyWiil.2576]

Hi, @Stajan.4581

I normally don't give much input on the forums.  You are technically right gearing viper's increases your power damage.  However on most builds the gain is barely a few thousand at best.  You may be interested in the mathematical differences.
A spreadsheet detailing current scourge variations (looks like Harbinger is in the works here too).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZlR5VSl-7ihDHISAYSnT8OG6utCSaSR6IUirosY1Dxo/
DT Gear Optimizer is linked here as well if you want to play around with an awesome simulation tool (Can also be used for non-fractal simulations):
https://optimizer.discretize.eu/

 

Since you appear to want to argue about word definitions let me give you some background.  A gear's 'flavor' or word association used in tandem with it is determined by the % increase ratio wise it provides to the relevant category.  Categories are (Power/Condi/Boon/Tank/Heal).
Power stats are Power/Precision/Ferocity.
Condition stats are Condition Damage and Expertise.
Boon stats are Concentration
Heal stats are Healing Power

Tank stats are Vitality/Toughness
*Note: I left off indirect increases such as boon duration % as they aren't stats*

Condi is such a stat efficient choice, only 2 stats are needed.  Condition Damage and Expertise.  This leaves 2 other stats wide open for usage.  So if I wanted to increase my damage beyond what was offered by just 'Condition' stats, I would need to dip into the 'Power' category as its the only option for more damage.  Thankfully Viper's lets us do that without sacrificing any condition stat. 
In the case of scourge presented here using the spreadsheet values linked above:
Viper's highest damage build has 34,089 condition damage and 3,443 power damage.  This means the ratio would be 90.8% condition damage.  Trailblazer's is also condition based and has 33,156 condition damage and 1,909 power damage.  This means the ratio would be 94.5% condition damage.  The ratio is higher for condition damage on trailblazers, only because we can't add more condition damage in either case.  We can only add power for viper's which results in it being better overall.

 

Now the % or ratio of condi damage I am doing verses the % or ratio of power I am doing is so HEAVILY condi. So much so that the increase to power doesn't make it functionally a hybrid.  It is still just condi because categorically its confusing to call something so heavily condi based hybrid.

 

Classes that can go truly hybrid (Close to 50% power and 50% condi) are usually distinguished as such verbally such as "Hybrid Soulbeast".  There is a "Condi Soulbeast" being mainly bleed/burn condition damage.  There is also a "Power soulbeast".  "Hybrid soulbeast" however was quite evenly split between power and condition, and thus it didn't fit into either category nicely so "Hybrid DPS" was used to refer to it.  Hybrid's can also be boon givers, but are usually referred to more specifically.  Such as "Condi Hybrid Quickness Boon providing Firebrand" is usually referred to as "Condi QuickBrand" or "cQB" for short which indicates mainly condition damage, you will be providing quickness for the subgroup and you are running firebrand.  Short terms that are easy to understand help everyone come to the table well prepared with build and performance expectations!

Have a fantastic day and EoD launch!

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Stajan.4581 said:

THE TB/VIPERS DOES 368 POINTS DIFFERENT THAN THE VIPERS 

Again ... I did read that and it's not hard to understand. I'm sure there is a point in there you want to make ... you aren't making it very well and it makes you appear like you don't understand how DPS is calculated. This is not something you seem open to acknowledging. So, foregoing the inevitable discussions about things you don't understand, at this point, this is the only value anyone can give you in this thread as you continue to ignore people trying to help you out.

If your performance is hindering your ability to play with people at the level you are trying to play with, you have two options:

1. Improve - if you do this, you will have less problems with the teams you want to play with. 

2. Make your own teams - if you do this, you will be able to play whatever and however you want, for as long as your team will tolerate your performance. 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

10 hours ago, Stajan.4581 said:

Can you read at all? Seriously ! I said for the 3rd time now that the mix of TB/Vipers is only 368 points lower than full vipers. That is because of the utility that is used I do not understand why you cannot fathom the fact that something can be almost as good as something without having to be exactly what you want it to be.

That's actually a lot, especially if it's condition damage.

Assuming you're using scourge with the recommended raid meta set up, but with TB trinkets comes out to this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSgAs+lNw0YgYkYxeV/UB-zRRYkBbGNsyI3EojCQ4pBFPbA-e

Which is only 1861 condition damage & 894 expertise, without buffs, of course.

Swapping it over to full viper's using the same food utilities: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSgAs+lNw0YgYkYxeV/UB-zRJYmRDfZkbC0RBI80ginNA-e

Yeah, your build doesn't even get more condition damage.  This is 1884 condition damage, 876 expertise.  The difference in expertise is less than 2% condition duration.

Now let's swap to a more useful utility.  http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSgAs+lNw0YgYkYxeV/UB-zRJYmRDfZkbC0RBI80gizKA-e
Toxic Focusing Crystal pumps up condition damage to 1973, while expertise drops to 846.  This is 112 more condition damage and 48 less expertise (-3.2% condition duration over your estimated build). 

There's no universe where your build does more damage in a vacuum.


EDIT:  Just found this: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSABs+tjlNwAZhMNGJW6X5PXA-zRJYkRPfZ0RKESFI8BJI2DvGF8pB-e
if that's your build, here's viper's with the same set up as your traits: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSgAs+lNw0YgsQGJW6X5PXA-zRJYmRDfZkbC0RBI8BJI2AvGUcWB-e

and the same set up as above but with tormenting runes: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSgAs+lNw0YgsQGJW6X5PXA-zRJYmRDfZkbC0RB49BJI2AvGUcWB-e

Tormenting runes are almost equivalent to nightmare.  They do slightly less damage but the trade off is you gain health on every torment application, which is huge.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Sir Alymer.3406

[LadyMari.7920]

7 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Call it whatever you like.  It's not a random coincidence that the build you linked is pretty close to what any condi scourge will run.  Much the same as condi sword weaver will always run fire/x/weaver, condi scourge will always run scepter with curses/x/scourge.  You can insert different gear, utilities, etc.  It doesn't really change the play style of the build.  That's meta.  You're again just getting hung up on a strawman argument you've made apparently in reaction to a bad experience you've recently had in fractals.

The meta is not the issue there.  I expect your problem is that you aren't performing as well as some other players expect you to for the content you're participating in.  I don't have enough information at this point to say more than that.  Perhaps they were just a-holes who nitpick damage in easy content like it matters?  Or perhaps you were legitimately causing a problem for some reason.  I doubt your build not exactly matching the build on SC was to blame for this in either case.

 

6 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Some players seek to validate themselves at the expense of others.  On the other hand, we're all playing the same game here and cooperative play requires...cooperation.  It's not incumbent upon any other player to carry us through content.  This is also why we have different types of content for different types of players.

This is not a justification.  I won't stand for players berating others over performance in a group.  I'd rather find something else to do with my time than listen to randoms snipe at each other in a video game.  But I also think it's inconsiderate to, for example, bring T1 performance to a T4 daily pickup. 

So I'm not exactly surprised when such players come into conflict and then try to play the victim.  That sort of passive aggression is as intolerable as the overt aggression of players who snipe at others over performance.  In my mind, both are equally wrong/annoying.

 

6 hours ago, Sarius.9285 said:

no it's not. If you join a group as a "DPS" and your DPS is literally lower than the support roles, than you're just leeching off others. Which is toxic 

 

6 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Stajan.4581 I expect the way this discussion is going, this thread will be locked as soon as the mods view it.  However, in the interests of genuinely trying to help you or other players reading this, I want to be clear about the issues you're having and the only way of resolving them to achieve your stated goal.

You told us that your goal is to acquire legendary gear via raiding.  You cannot do this using Trailblazer gear unless you're willing to perform the role of tank in encounters that require it.  Otherwise you will need to use gear that does not include toughness.  If you are choosing to tank, then you need to make that clear to your group and you need to understand what is required and be able to perform the role adequately.  Be aware that the standard for this is higher than it is for for standard DPS roles.

The other thing that's clear is that your build is not your problem.  The build you linked (aside from the issues it will cause in certain raid encounters due to toughness) should be able to perform adequately by the numbers to complete any content in this game.  The fact that you are being routinely challenged regarding your performance is not due to your build.

Unfortunately, this means that your issue is with how you're playing.  If you wish to achieve your goal, you will have to improve your level of play.  The only other alternative is to have other players carry you through.  You will need to set that arrangement up beforehand with players who are aware of what you hope to achieve and what you're expecting them to do for you.  If you do otherwise (i.e. by joining a pickup group and hoping nobody says anything) you are being very inconsiderate and you will almost certainly invite the sort of conflicts you've described here in this thread. 

 

For players just coming here for useful help: These are helpful posts in this thread. Since, as the OP has admitted, the purpose for this thread is not actually about Viper's being condi or not. It's really about what "good at DPS" means and the difference between open-world thinking and high-end group content thinking.

The salient points:
Don't be a toxic leech in end-game group content. Play well or be honest about your skill.
Don't be a toxic performance critic. Just move on.

Edited February 28, 2022 by LadyMari.7920

[Obtena.7952]

33 minutes ago, LadyMari.7920 said:

For players just coming here for useful help: These are helpful posts in this thread. Since, as the OP has admitted, the purpose for this thread is not actually about Viper's being condi or not. It's really about what "good at DPS" means and the difference between open-world thinking and high-end group content thinking.

Well, that's the problem ... what 'good at DPS" means isn't actually a subjective thing. This is something that can actually be calculated based on a the build and the optimal order of taking actions with that build. Whether the player can achieve that or not, is the question. The best part is that this isn't a question that can be 'argued' ... it depends on the player. 

The bottomline here is that the OP thinks that this argument justifies his own build choices. They don't. His build choices are already justified by how the game is designed and the options he has for teaming in group content. 

Quote

The salient points:
Don't be a toxic leech in end-game group content. Play well or be honest about your skill.
Don't be a toxic performance critic. Just move on.

I think this is the problem illustrated in this thread ... it appears the OP trying to get validation for his skill level by claims about his build's DPS. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Vilin.8056]

So the summary is:

"Viper is NOT a condition gear because I said so! And I say this because I get kicked off raid and fractals for low performance! And if anyone disagrees with me is a toxic elitists!"

 

Another day, another non constructive rant.

[Pokedranzer.4856]

You have a gross misunderstanding of what "the meta" actually means. Contrary to popular belief, it does not mean Most Effective Tactic Available. Not even close. The meta is essentially what everyone else is doing. In Fractals, it is the most effective to run 0 healers, avoid mechanics, and kill the boss really fast. What do you see? People wanting pre-nerf Healbrand. Running a Healbrand isn't the most effective thing to do, but EVERYONE wanted one. That's what made Healbrand meta. Being effective and efficient does not equate to what everyone is doing. Further more, pre-nerf Scourge was more or less required for most groups to even clear it. Speedrunners didn't run it. They just killed the boss really fast and cc the Sorrows becuase that was what was more efficient and effective. I can list many more points as to the difference between what the most effective strategy in any game, not just GW2, and what is actually being done. What is actually being done by the majority of players is "the meta" not what the high-end elite speedclear groups say it is. All they do really is tell people what THEY found is the most effective. Will it work for the vast majority of players? No, well not all the time.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Pokedranzer.4856