Were the sustain nerfs *really* needed?

[Valisha.8650]

Out of all poorly balanced things in this game, was sustain the one that needed such drastic nerf? Things like parasitic contagion aren't even part of any end-game meta build, they are just there for worse players, willing to sacrifice damage potential for personal survivability. That stuff is mostly used by new players, learning the class, or disabled players, unable to get top numbers anyway. I understand SOME nerfs were needed, but you kinda threw the baby out with the bathwater. Or maybe it's just me? Dunno.

[Horus.8304]

Yes they were. Cause if you look at all the bright and shiny new Specs: They all have massive sustain. Some even have TOO much sustain.

 

So, now, if you want that confortable solo experience you were enjoying before then you'll have to fork up the cash and buy the new expansion. It's the classic F2P formula "create demand for the supply".

[dippy.8961]

They did warn us I guess, that changes were coming to make "breathing room" for the new specs.  😑

[Valisha.8650]

14 minutes ago, Horus.8304 said:

Yes they were. Cause if you look at all the bright and shiny new Specs: They all have massive sustain. Some even have TOO much sustain.

 

So, now, if you want that confortable solo experience you were enjoying before then you'll have to fork up the cash and buy the new expansion. It's the classic F2P formula "create demand for the supply".

Seems like "Some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice *I* am willing to pay" type of mindset.

[Horus.8304]

1 hour ago, Valisha.8650 said:

Seems like "Some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice *I* am willing to pay" type of mindset.

I prefer it as: "Play the way you want, as long as you pay first."

[Horus.8304]

1 hour ago, Valisha.8650 said:

Seems like "Some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice *I* am willing to pay" type of mindset.

I prefer it as: "Play the way you want, as long as you pay first."

[Tiberius.3802]

1 hour ago, dippy.8961 said:

They did warn us I guess, that changes were coming to make "breathing room" for the new specs.  😑

I mean, sure, yeah. But I thought it was just going to be nerfs to traits, which I was and still am all for, even as a player with a renegade character that utilized the Battle Scars trait.

I didn't personally use it, but the deletion of rune of torment's passive was uncalled for though. There were so many comments about it throughout the years that offered up ideas on how to balance it a tad bit (such as nerfing it by 33%-50%, or tacking on the passive of outputting less damage), but nope! Delete! And that's the thing that should worry and/or annoy players more. The fact that they didn't even try to balance a feature, but just outright delete it. But oh, well, I guess. "lol git gud" is the only response any discussion around it is met with.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Tiberius.3802

[LSD.4673]

8 minutes ago, Tiberius.3802 said:

but nope! Delete! And that's the thing that should worry and/or annoy players more. The fact that they didn't even try to balance a feature, but just outright delete it. But oh, well, I guess. "lol git gud" is the only response any discussion around it is met with.

That's what they've always done: take a sledgehammer to something that just needs a little nudge.

The 0 damage CC nerf is a shining example.

[Horus.8304]

12 minutes ago, Tiberius.3802 said:

I mean, sure, yeah. But I thought it was just going to be nerfs to traits, which I was and still am all for, even as a player with a renegade character that utilized the Battle Scars trait.

I didn't personally use it, but the deletion of rune of torment's passive was uncalled for though. There were so many comments about it throughout the years that offered up ideas on how to balance it a tad bit (such as nerfing it by 33%-50%, or tacking on the passive of outputting less damage), but nope! Delete! And that's the thing that should worry and/or annoy players more. The fact that they didn't even try to balance a feature, but just outright delete it. But oh, well, I guess. "lol git gud" is the only response any discussion around it is met with.

That's because to "balance" something you have to put in work and thought to it. Where as it's much easier to just destroy it to promote the new content.

 

Don't blame Anet, by the way. They're a company and, as such, money does come first. The blame is solely on the ones who support this. Who will come up with excuses while petting Anet on the head like some dilusional parent with a spoiled child. Fact is, they just basically threw the finger at anyone and everyone who plays solo and who doesn't want to buy the expansion. Yet, nothing will happen because of the brown noses.

[Valisha.8650]

20 hours ago, Horus.8304 said:

That's because to "balance" something you have to put in work and thought to it. Where as it's much easier to just destroy it to promote the new content.

 

Don't blame Anet, by the way. They're a company and, as such, money does come first. The blame is solely on the ones who support this. Who will come up with excuses while petting Anet on the head like some dilusional parent with a spoiled child. Fact is, they just basically threw the finger at anyone and everyone who plays solo and who doesn't want to buy the expansion. Yet, nothing will happen because of the brown noses.

"Don't blame anet" sounds like the good old "We were just executing orders". And it didn't really work.

[AliamRationem.5172]

21 hours ago, Tiberius.3802 said:

I mean, sure, yeah. But I thought it was just going to be nerfs to traits, which I was and still am all for, even as a player with a renegade character that utilized the Battle Scars trait.

I didn't personally use it, but the deletion of rune of torment's passive was uncalled for though. There were so many comments about it throughout the years that offered up ideas on how to balance it a tad bit (such as nerfing it by 33%-50%, or tacking on the passive of outputting less damage), but nope! Delete! And that's the thing that should worry and/or annoy players more. The fact that they didn't even try to balance a feature, but just outright delete it. But oh, well, I guess. "lol git gud" is the only response any discussion around it is met with.

It should have had an icd to begin with.  But adding regen is probably better than that for solo play anyway.

[Valisha.8650]

10 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

LoL the salt is real. Ease up on the toxicity, brother.  Somebody might hurt those fee fees.

Got anything of merit to bring to the table, or is such sarcastic nonsense all you can offer in this discussion?

[AliamRationem.5172]

8 minutes ago, Valisha.8650 said:

Got anything of merit to bring to the table, or is such sarcastic nonsense all you can offer in this discussion?

Just responding in kind.  Is it productive only if you agree with it?

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 minutes ago, Valisha.8650 said:

Your responses had nothing of merit. First is just stating opinions without any form of justification or explanation, second is just sarcastic nonsense. I will gladly listen to why do you think the nerfs were a good thing, because so far, everyone seems to hate them.

Yeah, "everyone" hates them.

 I think torment runes were just a mistake. They forgot to put the usual 1s icd on them that they normally would and then left it broken until now.

Battle scars were overperforming.  Too much free healing and damage on an already stacked class.

Scrapper gained way too much barrier for a minor trait.  If it had been a grandmaster tier pick it might have made sense.

The major outlier here is thief because it has to give up a big grandmaster damage trait to gain sustain on a class that does not overperform in that area (until specter perhaps, which I expect is behind this change).

I've said all this in various threads but there are so many and at this point most of it is just toxic noise and gross exaggeration because nerfs are never popular.

[OriOri.8724]

I don't think the nerfs were as bad as people are whining. Especially since you get a new vitality boost from the jade bot, which gives you more health overall.

 

Also, most of the sustain nerfs seemed aimed at passive sustain, which had gotten out of hand anyway

[Valisha.8650]

36 minutes ago, OriOri.8724 said:

I don't think the nerfs were as bad as people are whining. Especially since you get a new vitality boost from the jade bot, which gives you more health overall.

 

Also, most of the sustain nerfs seemed aimed at passive sustain, which had gotten out of hand anyway

>jade bot

That will kinda put newer players at disadvantage. Or incentivize them rushing the story to obtain it, just like a lot of people do with mounts, the scale in particular.

[mindcircus.1506]

On 3/1/2022 at 11:40 AM, Valisha.8650 said:

Out of all poorly balanced things in this game, was sustain the one that needed such drastic nerf? Things like parasitic contagion aren't even part of any end-game meta build, they are just there for worse players, willing to sacrifice damage potential for personal survivability. That stuff is mostly used by new players, learning the class, or disabled players, unable to get top numbers anyway. I understand SOME nerfs were needed, but you kinda threw the baby out with the bathwater. Or maybe it's just me? Dunno.

Were the nerfs needed?

Players using these builds/runes  no longer needed to dodge while players not using these builds did.

I am very sure you can understand the massive issues this creates.
When a player no longer needs to dodge, a massive chunk of this game's combat loop is instantly negated.
 

But more to your point, they were also not creating the tradeoff you yourself are describing.
Condi Scourge became functionally immortal in full damage gear taking Parasitic Contagion. They weren't trading off anything for it, they were in full vipers with Nightmare runes. The trait tradeoff was a minimal DPS cost that is rarely applicable for open world play.
Celestial Shortbow Renegade could quite literally stand in front of a Desert Bounty (and with the exception of Scorcher) autoattack....and still get the kill under the time limit....while still healing and perma'ing alac on 10 allies.
Cele Firebrand was hard spamming insane burst damage, popping into their healing tome, topping up the group and then instantly back into the first tome with All cooldowns reset in order to lay down another nuke.

The list goes on.

Attempting to imply this is Anet giving the middle finger to disabled players is some of the ugliest shade I've seen thrown in this forum babyrage.... congrats on that.

[Astralporing.1957]

32 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Were the nerfs needed?

Players using these builds/runes  no longer needed to dodge while players not using these builds did.

Sorry, but that's simply not true. If you tried to not dodge on that thief build, for example, you'd end up dead very, very quickly.

[Morena.9312]

The problem about those nerfs is, that Anet kills whole traits even grandmaster traits and do not rework them. I mean thief got nerfed too and the trait in CS is now completly useless. That will lead into that some traitlines go complete garbage which kills off Spec and Build diversity. Acro  traitline says hello!

Edited March 2, 2022 by Carmela.8756

[Valisha.8650]

32 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

Attempting to imply this is Anet giving the middle finger to disabled players is some of the ugliest shade I've seen thrown in this forum babyrage.... congrats on that.

Nice strawman. I never said that "giving middle finger" was their main intent, only that disabled players surely are one of the groups which will feel the sustain nerfs the most, and that is a fact, whether it was intended or not. So stop throwing shiт at people before you make sure you actually get their point correctly.

[wayneericgouin.9371]

2 hours ago, OriOri.8724 said:

I don't think the nerfs were as bad as people are whining. Especially since you get a new vitality boost from the jade bot, which gives you more health overall.

 

Also, most of the sustain nerfs seemed aimed at passive sustain, which had gotten out of hand anyway

Finally someone with an objective opinion and not a knee jerk reaction to nerfs. I play vindicator just fine without battle scars, I haven't noticed any drop in survivability and quite frankly not having to be pigeon holed into that entire trait line for every build is nice. The tormenting runes were always ridiculous and shouldn't have been allowed as long as they were.

Edited March 2, 2022 by wayneericgouin.9371

[Valisha.8650]

17 minutes ago, wayneericgouin.9371 said:

Finally someone with an objective opinion and not a knee jerk reaction to nerfs. I play vindicator just fine without battle scars, I haven't noticed any drop in survivability and quite frankly not having to be pigeon holed into that entire trait line for every build is nice. The tormenting runes were always ridiculous and shouldn't have been allowed as long as they were.

"I agree, therefore it's objective". "It works for me, therefore all is good". "They were ridiculous, because I say so".

Truly, a textbook example of objective thought.

[Rogue.8235]

On 3/1/2022 at 2:40 PM, Valisha.8650 said:

Out of all poorly balanced things in this game, was sustain the one that needed such drastic nerf? Things like parasitic contagion aren't even part of any end-game meta build, they are just there for worse players, willing to sacrifice damage potential for personal survivability. That stuff is mostly used by new players, learning the class, or disabled players, unable to get top numbers anyway. I understand SOME nerfs were needed, but you kinda threw the baby out with the bathwater. Or maybe it's just me? Dunno.

 

Seriously....

As a blind player, don't speak for me.  Nothing I use to sustain for my builds was nerfed this patch, and I still survive outstandingly well in all content I play.  I can still easily complete content, solo, while blind.  Also, I never used invigorating precision anyways.

Don't blame me, or any other player with a disability, for your own ineptitude.

 

[Labjax.2465]

4 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said:

 

Seriously....

As a blind player, don't speak for me.  Nothing I use to sustain for my builds was nerfed this patch, and I still survive outstandingly well in all content I play.  I can still easily complete content, solo, while blind.  Also, I never used invigorating precision anyways.

Don't blame me, or any other player with a disability, for your own ineptitude.

 

Is this satire? It's not speaking for you to say that some people struggle more because of disabilities, which is objectively true.

[Rogue.8235]

9 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Is this satire? It's not speaking for you to say that some people struggle more because of disabilities, which is objectively true.

No, I'm not being sarcastic or joking.  I really am blind, and I don't appreciate others using disabled players as a reason for whatever they're arguing that has nothing to do with being disabled, like in this thread.  The OP complained about nerfs to skills, citing disabled players.  I'm stating that disabled players have nothing to do with the topic, so leave them out.  I then gave some, albeit anecdotal, support showing that the nerfs don't affect me in the slightest.  Such statements provide support against the notion that the nerfs inadvertently affected disabled players.

 

It is a completely different thing to state that you have a disability, how that disability affects gameplay, and how the changes to the game affected your specific circumstance.  I've done this before.  This method of discourse is less about complaining and more about informing.  I've discussed, in ancient threads, how in-game sound, or lack thereof, affects my gameplay.  I didn't complain and I wasn't frustrated.  I just mentioned it.  Some of those threads turned into others giving suggestions that had never occurred to me, and one player even built an application for me.

However, this is not what the OP is doing.  Disabled players are not a veil to legitimize your complaints.

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Rogue.8235