Strikes Are Successful Because There's No Toughness Based Tanking Like in Raids.

[Ruufio.1496]

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Edited June 13 by Ruufio.1496

[knite.1542]

I've heard a few different things that have killed raids. DPS meters, asking for killproof, snowcrows...

But this one is new for me.

[Vilin.8056]

Personal bias isn't underrated facts. Neither is it any constructive making a toxic comment towards all players who raid regularly.

 

The majority of Raid toxicity happens only when players not following LFG requirement, and attempting to sneak into an exp meta group for a successful boss kill.

The main reason for sneaking  into a meta squad is because non-meta, low DPS player has failed to form a successful squad and strategy, from 2015 to 2022.

Non meta players hardly succeeded at Vale guardian introduction, if any at all. I've been through 50+ multi-hour long failed guild attempts, before finally having everyone adjusted their builds.

The reason why build requirement exist, is simply due to the fact that it's far easier to invest a few gold on berserker and viper gears rather than risking people running green circle for an extended amount of time, at the time where 90% of VG failure were due to failing at this mechanic. Similar reasons eventually extended to other raid bosses.

And finally, relating strike difficulties towards raid is pretty stupid, Boneskinner is never a raid difficulty boss.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Vilin.8056

[CasualElitist.8795]

9 out of 23 bosses have a toughness based aggro, so less than half. Rest has other tanking mechanics like random fixations, special action keys or proximity or no tanking at all.

Besides, 99% pug groups still run minstrel gear on tanks which has way more toughness than your celestial or trailblazer.

Celestial builds like druid, RR renegade or qfb exist and used in raid comps.

But yeah, this is what killed raids.

Also you know, you can buy full exotic berserker armor for like 20ish g on TP and there, you have another set to raid with. But yes yes i know, it's toxic to require people to get specific gear for raids, my bad.

Thank you for quality content to my morning coffee 🙂

Edited March 7, 2022 by CasualElitist.8795

[sokeenoppa.5384]

5 hours ago, Ruufio.1496 said:

Very underrated fact.

 

There are a LOT of players out there with sets like trailblazers or celestial, etc. These players absolutely cannot go into raids because of toughness based tanking. And I'm sorry but the DPS on something like a celestial necromancer with torment/nightmare runes is absolutely good. But you cannot raid with a celestial anything in raids because of toughness. Same idea with other stats like trailblazers. The DPS from that is totally fine to beat raids. But it can't be used because of toughness based tanking. Do you think most players are running around doing open world on full zerker or full viper? No because in open world it's easy and annoying to get 1 shot on builds like that. So most players cannot even attempt raiding.

 

Yes, you might have to do some mechanics (THE HORROR! SOMETHING OTHER THAN SPAMMING SKILLS!) with "lesser" stats. Most players don't want to or can't make multiple armor sets to do some dumb raids in. And this is why strikes succeed - no toughness based tanking. And guess what? Strikes can be beaten just fine. I've been beating and will continue to beat all strikes on my celestial harbinger/scourge whether you raid players like it or not because I can.

 

Did boneskinner today. People were getting downed and then rezed left and right. Not experienced players clearly. Guess what? We still won. People lol'd at the end.

Did boneskinner a couple weeks ago. Flawless victory but with 2 deaths. The party leader bad mouthed those 2 for dying like you can't imagine and then kicked them. I decided I was not interested in finishing the rest of the strikes with such a person and just left.

Guess which experience was more fun? The casuals or the toxic raiders?

 

You raiders killed your own content. I remember when vale guardian was just released. Guess what type of gear people used? Whatever they wanted. And yes you could beat the raid. Toughness based tanking is a big reason - other than the players themselves - that raids failed. What percentage of players are playing with toughness on their gear? I would bet most are. You have firewalled that I'm sure way over 50% of the playerbase from trying raids. This is where strikes succeed.

We have toughness based tanking on like 9 bosses out of all Raid encounters tho

[displayname.8794]

Ah yes, another one of those "you raiders killed this game" thread.
First and foremost, toughness based aggro is something the devs introduced and not the players, how we get to "you killed your game mode" is beyond my comprehension but let's ignore logic for a second...

 

Quote

These players absolutely cannot go into raids because of toughness based tanking.

 

Your entire opinion, that you call "facts", is based on a premise that is factually incorrect. The scepticism towards high toughness in raids comes from the fact that a lot of people approaching raids with their open world gear don't actually have a functional build at all: random stat combos (often lower than exotic rarity), mismatched runes, questionable trait and utility choice. Every player with an average understanding of the game will tell you that you can, in fact, join a raid with good stat combos that include toughness (like trailblazer or celestial) as long as the final result is a functional build that fulfills your stated role without underperforming severely.
That being said, if you want to run an unconventional amount of toughness you have to accept a compromise: YOU tank toughness based encounters if the designated tank can't or doesn't want to increase their toughness. Dedicated tanks exist to ease the job of the other 9 players but if you want to have high toughness and make your life harder for no reason, by all means do so. Most bosses don't hit that hard and pugs take 2 healers anyway.

Allow me a small consideration, though. When you join other players (especially randoms) in hard instanced content, you commit to playing your class in the best way possible to increase the chances of success. The harder the content, the more your individual performance matters.You can play football in slippers, but why would you do that if you're actively trying to win and not drag your team down?

Lastly, a lot of people tend to forget it when they complain, but this is still a Massive Multiplayer game. If you don't enjoy the way pugs do things, you have the option to make your own groups with your own rules.

 

Honestly, people should just stop artificially creating barriers to justify their incompetence or their uninterest in teaming up with other players.

[Jackolas.7483]

6 hours ago, Ruufio.1496 said:

Do you think most players are running around doing open world on full zerker or full viper?

 

Yes, why not. It's not like open world is difficult if you know your class. No need to have a completely different spec or gear.

[Krzysztof.5973]

I... there is so much wrong ... so much misinformation I don't even know where to begin without insulting you... or my intelligence... 

For the love of god, let's stop giving strong opinions on matters we have no clue about...

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

Personal Story is more sucessfull than Raids, why, because PS has Tybalt and Trahearne, lack of Tybalt and Trahearne is what killed Raids.

[doncavallo.5697]

Boneskinner has a fraction of the HP of a Raid encounter with like 21kk HP.

The Lowest raid boss is one of the twin Largos with like 15kk, and it is designed to be killed by 5 people(1 of which is a tank and the other a healer that also needs to kite), with a very tight timer and 5 times the numbers of mechanics to worry about. This whole thread makes no sense whatsoever

 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

10 hours ago, Ruufio.1496 said:

These players absolutely cannot go into raids because of toughness based tanking.

If you have so much Toughness that you have more than the tank then you have other problems as well. Having more than 2200 Toughness is not possible when running full Trailblazer or Cele.

10 hours ago, Ruufio.1496 said:

Do you think most players are running around doing open world on full zerker or full viper?

It's totally possible to run around in Berserker or Viper in open world, running full Trailblazer instead of Viper sure helps staying alive and soloing some stuff, but you don't need Toughness in open world.

10 hours ago, Ruufio.1496 said:

Guess which experience was more fun? The casuals or the toxic raiders?

You know that not everyone is going to throw you out for a mistake? If you join a squad disregarding their requirements then they will probably throw you out for mistakes.

10 hours ago, Ruufio.1496 said:

You have firewalled that I'm sure way over 50% of the playerbase from trying raids. This is where strikes succeed.

To this I can only say one thing, if you look at a Raid build and go "nah" then it's not the requirements that are "firewalling" you from Raids.

[LKEY.9567]

Ok.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

7 hours ago, Jackolas.7483 said:

 

Yes, why not. It's not like open world is difficult if you know your class. No need to have a completely different spec or gear.

I have, in general, 2-3 pre-made sets for PvE: the glassy DPS stat combinations used 90% of the time, and 10% I use a tankier and more sustain-able build for soloing more difficult content (i.e. legendaries and heavy-hitting champion bosses from expansions + group events with hordes of durable enemies). 

The former 1-2 sets are generally 1 power and 1 condi, Berserker and Viper lines, and used for any farming Gerent, Tarir, open world trash and story, raids + strikes + fractals and soloing some stuff (i.e. core game champions - and some legendaries i.e. Priest of Melandru).

I'm sure many who say the same ("open world isn't difficult") refer to the general metas, trash ads and story that every player participates in.
But trust me, you can make it difficult AND others can make it difficult for you (bless scaling CC bars....) and there's no way you're soloing everything out there with a glassy power build (particularly after ANET so graciously nerfed the kitten out of power-based sustain traits).

[The Boz.2038]

On 3/7/2022 at 4:34 PM, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

If you have so much Toughness that you have more than the tank then you have other problems as well. Having more than 2200 Toughness is not possible when running full Trailblazer or Cele.

Toughness checks exist because most good tanks bring the bare minimum toughness to take aggro, and use the rest of their stats and build to role compress into something more useful than a tank that just orients the boss. In an organized group, you will often hear the tank say something like "we have a soulbeast, so I need to get my toughness up", and that's a berserker slb.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

7 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Toughness checks exist because most good tanks bring the bare minimum toughness to take aggro, and use the rest of their stats and build to role compress into something more useful than a tank that just orients the boss. In an organized group, you will often hear the tank say something like "we have a soulbeast, so I need to get my toughness up", and that's a berserker slb.

I always tank as offheal. There isn't much difference between Harrier and Giver, so, no loss. Also, Soulbeast only gets +150 Toughness as DPS, you only need to pay attention to Slb if it's a Handkiter, since it gets ~400 extra Toughness.

[The Boz.2038]

...what I'm saying is "some tanks tank with <1150 toughness, unless there's a soulbeast".

[Nephalem.8921]

On 3/7/2022 at 6:24 AM, Ruufio.1496 said:

Very underrated fact.

 

There are a LOT of players out there with sets like trailblazers or celestial, etc. These players absolutely cannot go into raids because of toughness based tanking. And I'm sorry but the DPS on something like a celestial necromancer with torment/nightmare runes is absolutely good. But you cannot raid with a celestial anything in raids because of toughness. Same idea with other stats like trailblazers. The DPS from that is totally fine to beat raids. But it can't be used because of toughness based tanking. Do you think most players are running around doing open world on full zerker or full viper? No because in open world it's easy and annoying to get 1 shot on builds like that. So most players cannot even attempt raiding.

 

Yes, you might have to do some mechanics (THE HORROR! SOMETHING OTHER THAN SPAMMING SKILLS!) with "lesser" stats. Most players don't want to or can't make multiple armor sets to do some dumb raids in. And this is why strikes succeed - no toughness based tanking. And guess what? Strikes can be beaten just fine. I've been beating and will continue to beat all strikes on my celestial harbinger/scourge whether you raid players like it or not because I can.

 

Did boneskinner today. People were getting downed and then rezed left and right. Not experienced players clearly. Guess what? We still won. People lol'd at the end.

Did boneskinner a couple weeks ago. Flawless victory but with 2 deaths. The party leader bad mouthed those 2 for dying like you can't imagine and then kicked them. I decided I was not interested in finishing the rest of the strikes with such a person and just left.

Guess which experience was more fun? The casuals or the toxic raiders?

 

You raiders killed your own content. I remember when vale guardian was just released. Guess what type of gear people used? Whatever they wanted. And yes you could beat the raid. Toughness based tanking is a big reason - other than the players themselves - that raids failed. What percentage of players are playing with toughness on their gear? I would bet most are. You have firewalled that I'm sure way over 50% of the playerbase from trying raids. This is where strikes succeed.

Oh you can play that just fine. just cant join my groups because they are gated behind 500li so i dont have to see celestiel scourges.

Some strikes take 16min+ with no gating when a gated party clears it in 8min or faster. the boss doesnt have an enrage timer but i do have one and 16min for a boss that isnt ff14 ultimate level is not enjoyable for me.