New Ogrewatch is great but now Red is at a big disadvantage in EB.

[MedievalThings.5417]

@Bunter.3795 said:Rather than making more changes to EBG and it's map, why not change the server assigned to the red section? Why not make the winner of tier 1 or the 1 down server the red server? This would make it harder on the "stronger" server and change the dynamics in EBG.

People might say well the stronger server will just take SMC to stop their keep from being trebbed, well they do that now and keep it to treb the weaker red server. Make it that they want to keep SMC in order to stop their keep from being trebbed.

A lot of people still hate the desert/red bl. Make it so that the 1 down or "stronger" server has to have it. Why give them the advantage?

Yeah, at this point the easiest solution would be to move red keep wall back a few feet so it can not treb smc and vice versa. AND, swap red and green on the map and their borderlands. It would make the strongest server in a matchup have to deal with all the disadvantages currently forced upon the last place server. Scroll up to my last post if you want a quick list.

[Bunter.3795]

@Ubi.4136 said:

@Bunter.3795 said:Rather than making more changes to EBG and it's map, why not change the server assigned to the red section? Why not make the winner of tier 1 or the 1 down server the red server? This would make it harder on the "stronger" server and change the dynamics in EBG.

People might say well the stronger server will just take SMC to stop their keep from being trebbed, well they do that now and keep it to treb the weaker red server. Make it that they want to keep SMC in order to stop their keep from being trebbed.

A lot of people still hate the desert/red bl. Make it so that the 1 down or "stronger" server has to have it. Why give them the advantage?

Yeah, at this point the easiest solution would be to move red keep wall back a few feet so it can not treb smc and vice versa. AND, swap red and green on the map and their borderlands. It would make the strongest server in a matchup have to deal with all the disadvantages currently forced upon the last place server. Scroll up to my last post if you want a quick list.

Yeah, I agree with your points. I just felt that there were too many suggestions by others on changes to the map when the easier thing would be to just change the assigned worlds in match ups. I Think it would make an interesting dynamic if you changed the red side walls of SMC to be invulnerable like they did with Wildcreek a while back while leaving the ability to treb the red keep from SMC if the tier 1 winner and 1 down were assigned to red.

[Arcaedus.7290]

@Kirnale.5914 said:ballista/treb/catapult/AC on the bridge ? just bomb it from below the bridge. No need to waste any supply to remove them.

Treb on supply depot? Bomb it from the stairs.

Ac/ballista? Meteor shower it.

Another thing: You expect a roaming troop/guild troop to take over a defensive tower? Why not go to langor or any other close tower. Your success SHOULD be low to take it over, unless you have an army.

Just got on and tested. Staff ele on a roamer isn't a thing, so meteors is out of the argument. There are no massive 1200+ range AOEs that I can think of (aside from DH and ranger longbow 5) that can substitute for it either, so we're left with 180-240 radius aoes at 900 to 1200 range, at most.

Soooo: you can't reach the far side of the supply depot roof from the stairs. If someone places a treb in the center of the bridge directly on top of one of the supports, you're not going to be able to hit it from below (also no LoS for ranged attacks).

Sure, there are counter measures to this counter-siege if you have a zerg trying to take mendon's, but again, we're a roaming group. Destroying defensive siege before sieging up ourselves is the only option. With 5 or less people, we're not going to be taking out superior siege with some mild damage at the fringe of an aoe. And thennnnnn, even for a zerg trying to take mendon's, the counter is the fact that Mendon's is right next to red spawn (around 3000-3600 range. that's pretty much adjacent).

Yes Mendon's is hard to take, that was my whole point. It is just as about well defendable as any other "inner" tower in ebg. Maybe not as defendable as say, Veloka, but certainly easier to defend than any of the outer towers.

[Rayya.2591]

red is fine, ow new position provide more open field for fightsgreen towers need some nerfs. wc should have destructible walls on both sides , or should be moved on the left , to be more far from keep respawn

[Kirnale.5914]

Not sure, but as long as u have an ele in your group, you can use meteor. Since you roam as a group, you can bring an ele to do the job, especially if your goal is something as big as a close tower (most roamers just take outer tower + camp then stop). Since your goal is clear from the start, bringing an ele should be no problem (god just equip your staff XD, no need to build for "staff ele")

Another thing is, which I can't test it out right now(since i'm red), is that i can reach the center treb with a necro. Be it shade(which is currently bugged and requires los), or wells. Necro should hit hard enough to remove it. You just stand right next to the support of the bridge. Not sure if thief can reach it.

Mendon's only strength lies in their location. You're right, it is right next to the spawn, but it also have lots of negative sides:

1. Sieges from the overlook can't help you out.
2. You require more people. Other close tower have better siege placement, and help from the ap. More sieges = less people required to defend.
3. You need sieges. Image you have inc from green and blue, on both sides, then the most important thing are the sieges. It is all just to delay the enemies for your zerg to clear up one location and move to the next to defend. Especially hard for red, which is the weakest server, and lack either quality or quantity zerg. Mendons doesnt have a single location to place sieges that can't be destroyed by a zerg. When veloka and mendons get attacked, it is usually mendons that falls.

"Mendons is hard to take.": It is. But, it is the easiest close tower to take. And ofc it is harder to take than any outer tower, because it isn't an outer tower.

Also, 5 people or less, is a very, very bad idea in the first place, unless you plan to take it when your enemies don't play at all. Just two people defending it would be enough to destory your plans(just by yolo destoying your sieges and respawn).

[Svarty.8019]

@Endelon.1042 said:Mendons tower is now in need of some sort of revamp as well. In its current state Mendons is really hard to defend because almost every defensive siege spot can be very easily countered by player skills from below the tower, etc. While Ogrewatch has now been made into a true outer tower (like it should be) Mendons needs some updating to make it a true inner tower.

Mendon's has always been slightly too remote to defend, but moving it nearer to the keep may not make it easier to get to because it's closer to spawn.

It isn't supposed to be an "inner/outer" arrangement, it's supposed to be a staging post with a mutual defence effect (because the camp upgrades the tower) with the nearby camp. The camp itself is out in the middle of nowhere (it's a logging camp, I guess it has to be where the logs are ;) ) and incredibly difficult to defend - imo the supply an objective gains from camps should be relative to the distance the dolyak has traveled to get there. This would make the tower upgrade faster because the dolyak travels so very far.

[Jeknar.6184]

@Rayya.2591 said:red is fine, ow new position provide more open field for fightsgreen towers need some nerfs. wc should have destructible walls on both sides , or should be moved on the left , to be more far from keep respawn

Wildcreek cannot have both destructible walls, otherwise if for whatever reason you take down both walls, you can no longer reach lord's room until they get repaired. They would need to redesign the tower for that or add a bridge-like wall like the one in the back of Veloka.

[Arcaedus.7290]

@Kirnale.5914 said:

"Mendons is hard to take.": It is. But, it is the easiest close tower to take. And ofc it is harder to take than any outer tower, because it isn't an outer tower.

It's not easier enough than all the other close towers to back up OP's claim that red is at a disadvantage, not by a long stretch.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

When did everyone step away from the common tribal mantra of yore that spouted enthusiastically that red has all the advantages in defense? Is it possible that over the last year others have tried it and realized it's not as peachy as they chanted previously?

The OW move was just another hit below the belt for red, and quite frankly I'm suprised something like that took so long.

Now, they just need to move Anz inside Dredge, surround Mendons with an acre of moats filled with piranhas that are only neutralized by glowy orbs obtainable in -> green <-spawn and make all walls and gates on green towers indestructible.

DBL doesn't matter a bit, half the time the server blessed with it hates defending it anyway, so theres nothing that can be done there to make reds life any worse, short of replacing all that sand with quicksand only traversed with a Skimmer (only available of course at blue and green spawn).

[Fatemaster.3590]

I've been a tad lost as to why OW needed to be changed entirely instead of just making the gap between the keep a bit wider for the no fly zone to kick in, or just make the grace time go faster for that spot. Even when they added that ugly pillar to the back of OW for the first change seemed a bit backwards. The only reasoning I could see is if they are preempting mounts or something and maybe the raptor could leap it in testing.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

@Fatemaster.3590 said:I've been a tad lost as to why OW needed to be changed entirely instead of just making the gap between the keep a bit wider for the no fly zone to kick in, or just make the grace time go faster for that spot. Even when they added that ugly pillar to the back of OW for the first change seemed a bit backwards. The only reasoning I could see is if they are preempting mounts or something and maybe the raptor could leap it in testing.

Yep. This is why it's bad to force new game mechanics on a map that never thought of having them (gliding and probably mounts) to be added in later. You end up having to attempt a fix, and break something else.

[Aeolus.3615]

Since OW can now be easilly trebbed from SMC like the towers from blue and green, Anet needs to move keep more to north to make it not able to be trebbed from SMC

Each side already has 2 towers that can be trebbed from SMC but red has the keep as well, cause OW now is way to easy to get it compared has before the change, and keep can already be hitted from the hill right next to it, while defensive siege can be easilly wiped at 100% with aoe on the wall.

[Draeyon.4392]

New Ogrewatch is horrible in terms of defense. 1 spot atop the stairs to build unhazeable siege. Everywhere else can be a death sentence just standing there trying to defend.

Also, Red needed an advantage somewhere. Whoever is the lowest ranking server for that week (unless tanking occurs) will be red.

Why was this change even made in the first place?

[Pepper.3901]

@Endelon.1042 said:First, the new Ogrewatch Tower is great. I'm really glad to see that the giant, rushed rock pillar was actually just a temporary solution (cause it looked awful). But now the Red third of EB is at a pretty big disadvantage. The other two colors have 2 inner towers (Aldons/Jerrifers and Bravost/Langor) that are the better defended towers while Red really only has Veloka tower now.

Mendons tower is now in need of some sort of revamp as well. In its current state Mendons is really hard to defend because almost every defensive siege spot can be very easily countered by player skills from below the tower, etc. While Ogrewatch has now been made into a true outer tower (like it should be) Mendons needs some updating to make it a true inner tower.

This is NOT a good change and I am sickened that they have made Red the most attacked server of all.

Sick, Anet, just plain sick.

[Pepper.3901]

Anet the name of the map is "Eternal Battlegrounds"

You destroyed the Eternal part of the battleground.

Put it back. Just. Put it back.

[bernstein adelheid.8590]

@Ubi.4136 said:

2. Red has the only keep that the inner walls can be trebbed down from an outer tower (OW).

Wrong. You can destroy the green inner keep by placing trebs onto the jerrifer's slough tower "hill".Regarding the green keep, i'm sure you can do the same by using trebuchets inside langor.

[XenesisII.1540]

@bernstein adelheid.8590 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:

2. Red has the only keep that the inner walls can be trebbed down from an
   outer tower (OW)
   .

Wrong. You can destroy the green inner keep by placing trebs onto the jerrifer's slough tower "hill".Regarding the green keep, i'm sure you can do the same by using trebuchets inside langor.

He said "outer" tower.Each side has inner towers that can hit inner parts of the keep, veloka, jerrifers, langor.But none of the outer towers can hit inner parts of a keep.

Technically red side had 3 outer towers, Mendons is not close enough to the keep to be considered an inner tower, OW and Anz both faced enemies in front of them, while veloka was the only tower that was protected by a front tower in OW. But you could hit inner red keep on OW hill before, so red had two towers that could hit their inner giving them a disadvantage in that regard, although that was easy to counter as the keep usually has siege on that wall.

In any case the design for red is a little messed up.

[Jeknar.6184]

@bernstein adelheid.8590 said:

@Ubi.4136 said:

2. Red has the only keep that the inner walls can be trebbed down from an outer tower (OW).

Wrong. You can destroy the green inner keep by placing trebs onto the jerrifer's slough tower "hill".Regarding the green keep, i'm sure you can do the same by using trebuchets inside langor.

Jerrifer's isn't an Outer tower... Green Outer towers are Wildcreek and Klovan. All inner towers can treb their respective keeps inner walls (Or gate in case of Aldon), except for Mendon.