Virtuoso is a nerf to mesmer.

[Mell.4873]

19 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again with the golem benchmarks....catalyst got nerfed because of golem benchmarks not because it was practical in actual fights.

Now they suck at golem benchmark and worse in actual fights.

I have been able to pull 35k in fractals with a condition build does that count?

[phokus.8934]

39 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I have been able to pull 35k in fractals with a condition build does that count?

You're not sustaining 35k dps in fractals with condi virtuoso.

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

You're not sustaining 35k dps in fractals with condi virtuoso.

Okay disregard my comment since I had a bug with arc, I will test fractals again later.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Mell.4873

[draxynnic.3719]

I see the practice of "misrepresent the elite in order to claim the whole thing is bad" is continuing.

Look, ArenaNet just isn't going to scrap Virtuoso and make the clone-based elite specialisation of your dreams in its place. Not going to happen. There certainly are problems with virtuoso - lack of synergy with existing condition weapons being a big one - but if you try to claim that the whole profession is broken through a list of factually incapable claims, ArenaNet just isn't going to pay attention to you at all. Want changes? Highlight the things that are actually problematic and provide suggestions for change.

To break this down:

 

On 3/10/2022 at 10:11 PM, Nezekan.2671 said:

Assuming you own HoT and PoF, Virtuoso taking up a trait tree slot is a nerf to mesmer.

The problem here is that Virtuoso has really uninspired and bad traits and if you take the "best" ones, you are a power dps and nothing else. But Mesmer did not need another power DPS who cannot provide any kind of Utility, whether to itself or the group. The damage is not even high for a pure dps spec. Here are some benchmarks to put things in perspective:

What I see from this benchmark is that the Virtuoso has 1K DPS more than the chrono. That's not massive, but it is something. Furthermore, the virtuoso is less conditional in how it does the damage: it doesn't rely on the target having specific conditions, and it doesn't rely on clones surviving long enough to be shattered.

To put this in context, too, 40k seems to be about the cap of what ArenaNet considers to be acceptable. Anything that has DPS too far over 40K tends to attract the nerf bat.

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It's good that both of these by the same person. Virtuoso deals the same damage as Chrono, but Chrono can tank, provide alacrity, provide quickness, has good CC and much more versatile. Virtuoso can only dps.

As people have said, chrono can't do all that while also doing 39K DPS.

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The condition trait lines are just bad. It's very hard to have a build for Condi Virtuoso because Staff and Scepter are built with clones in mind. Clones auto attacks apply conditions, and thus Virtuoso cannot use Condi weapons like other Mesmers can. Not to mention there is no synergy between blades and condi weapons. Only dagger and greatsword have blade abilities, and they are pure power. Besides, Condi Virtuoso is completely behind Mirage, who does it better than Virtuoso and can also provide might and Alacrity if needed.

As noted above, this I can agree with. As things currently stand, the only weapon that really synergises well with condi virtuoso is dagger. Greatsword having a couple of token blade attacks doesn't exactly make it a condi weapon. Even if you ignore the loss of clones providing additional conditions on sceptre and staff, sceptre and staff don't inflict much bleed and therefore have little synergy with virtuoso condition line traits.

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Virtuoso shatters are a nerf to core/chrono shatters. Virtuoso shatters are:

Single target (mesmer shatters are aoe)

Wrong. Virtuoso F1 and F2 shatters pierce, and F4 has an area attack. F3 is single-target, but so is core/chrono F3 unless traited. While virtuoso F3 has the potential to deliver 2.5s of daze in one hit, core/chrono F3 dazes will overlap if they hit simultaneously, requiring careful setup to get longer dazes from a single shatter.

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Have a cast time (mesmer shatters don't)
Are projectiles (mesmer shatters are not)
Travel in a straight line and are none homing. Meaning if you are fast enough, you can walk away from their path and not get hit. (Clones follow their target and only shatter when reaching them)

Clones have their own forms of mitigation. They can be killed. Their movement can be blocked by terrain or by movement-blocking skills. You can see them coming and dodge as they shatter. If it takes too long for them to reach their target after they were commanded to shatter, they'll expire. Only way to guarantee a clone shatter is if the clones are already adjacent to the target and the target has no chance to react.

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The damage is not even high. Chrono F1 deals more damage than Virtuoso F1.

Chrono F1 has a base coefficient of 3.2, and half of that comes after a delay and might therefore miss if the target moves. Virtuoso F1 has a base coefficient of 3.5. I guess once you take traits into effect, chrono F1 might pull a little ahead, but I don't see it being a big deal.
Virtuoso F2 deals more conditions in one hit than chrono F2. Chrono F2 does have the cooldown reduction, but virtuoso F2 has a lower base cooldown, and chrono F2 can't reduce its cooldown down to 7s or whatever it was any more - they actually come out about even in terms of cooldowns, which puts Virtuoso F2 ahead.

Of course, it does need to be considered that core/chrono shatters are instant activation and don't interrupt your regular attacks, while virtuoso shatters do. But that's going to be accounted for in the benchmark - and virtuoso can open with a full shatter ready to go. 

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Some core mesmer traits are completely incompatible with Virtuoso. The two biggest offenders are these:

https://imgur.com/pbJ5ds2

SInce the image is not embedding, here are the traits:

Dueling minor trait sharper images: Illusion crits cause bleeding. Virtuoso has no illusions

Phantasms still exist, and phantasms count as illusions. This trait is reduced in value, though.

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Domination trait empowered illusions: Illusions deal 15% more strike damage. Same as above, no illusions to benefit from this

This was always a phantasm trait, and virtuoso still has phantasms. Clone strike damage is pretty negligible, and clones doing 15% more than not much is still not much. 

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The issue of overloading blades is big too. Other mesmers who have their shatters on cooldown don't have to worry as much because clones are doing damage while waiting. Virtuoso does not have this. When your shatters are on cooldown, it's just a waste to be on 5 blades, and blade generation is fast enough where this becomes a problem. Stocking a blade when you are 5 blades should just throw it at the enemy, like the same way phantasms can throw blade once they are done attacking.

This isn't a virtuoso-specific problem. Regular mesmer clones haven't had any compensation for "overloading" since clone death traits were removed a long time ago. I guess you could argue that condition clones or mirage clones provide a benefit for having all three up, so you're more willing to accept having clones overwrite if it means you keep 3 clones up persistently, but it's still generally good practice to shatter when you can quickly restock. That said, I wouldn't complain if surplus daggers were made to spontaneously shoot off.

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There are some "easy ways" to fix Virtuoso. Such as increasing it's damage, ( as a pure dps spec, it needs to have the potential to be highest dps in the game),

See previous comment about 40k being about as high as ArenaNet lets anything sit at in raid scenarios before reaching for the nerfbat.

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make sword attacks blades, fix incompatible traits etc etc.

Yeah, making sword attacks count as blades would be huge for condi virtuoso - it's something I've been pondering myself. Condi virtuoso is all about stacking bleeds, so it'd be good to have something other than dagger that can do that.

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But I don't think we should just take the easy way. It's a very boring spec with little inspiration. Without the art team carrying the spec, and believe me they do, it would be a very bad spec. It baffles me how the first class they introduced in beta is the most unfinished. It needs a fundamental review.

 

Seen Catalyst?

 

17 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

You might have gotten laughed at but only by non-mesmers. 

Every mesmer said the same thing since the first beta. 

Not true, you've just been No True Scotsman-ing everyone who disagrees with you.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@draxynnic.3719As someone who mainly posts on mesmer forums almost since the game released is not hard to figure out who are mesmer mains and who aren't.

Plus some of these people say the most absurd stuff regarding mesmer. 

As for the first part of your post, we've been saying what needs fixing both on the feedback thread and on individual threads so cut out the BS. 

[Nezekan.2671]

8 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Virtuoso has amazing condition dps since "blade" attacks trigger bleed so the auto attack alone can get above 30k dps

It's completely inferior to Mirage.

[Nezekan.2671]

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I see the practice of "misrepresent the elite in order to claim the whole thing is bad" is continuing.

Look, ArenaNet just isn't going to scrap Virtuoso and make the clone-based elite specialisation of your dreams in its place. Not going to happen. There certainly are problems with virtuoso - lack of synergy with existing condition weapons being a big one - but if you try to claim that the whole profession is broken through a list of factually incapable claims, ArenaNet just isn't going to pay attention to you at all. Want changes? Highlight the things that are actually problematic and provide suggestions for change.

To break this down:

No one said they want "a clone e-spec of their dreams". It is broken because it is either inferior to other Mesmer builds, or it's barely better. I already highlighted the problems. Being a no clone e-spec is fine, but the execution is simply abhorrent and uninspired.

 

 

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What I see from this benchmark is that the Virtuoso has 1K DPS more than the chrono. That's not massive, but it is something. Furthermore, the virtuoso is less conditional in how it does the damage: it doesn't rely on the target having specific conditions, and it doesn't rely on clones surviving long enough to be shattered.

To put this in context, too, 40k seems to be about the cap of what ArenaNet considers to be acceptable. Anything that has DPS too far over 40K tends to attract the nerf bat.

Being a power DPS is the only area Virtuoso actually has anything to say compared to other Mesmer builds and all it has to show for is 1k dps? This is a complete opportunity cost. It's not that Chrono can deal near 40k and provide boons. But it's in the arsenal of the class. So Virtuoso effectively adds nothing to the overall capability of the class, but 1k DPS?

 

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As people have said, chrono can't do all that while also doing 39K DPS.

As noted above, this I can agree with. As things currently stand, the only weapon that really synergises well with condi virtuoso is dagger. Greatsword having a couple of token blade attacks doesn't exactly make it a condi weapon. Even if you ignore the loss of clones providing additional conditions on sceptre and staff, sceptre and staff don't inflict much bleed and therefore have little synergy with virtuoso condition line traits.

1k dps is not enough to make Virtuoso a good addition to Mesmer class. Virtuoso suffers in pvp and wvw and Mesmer needed a good boost in these areas. A power dps that barely deals 1k more dps than Chrono and a condi dps that is completely inferior to Mirage in every way imaginable is not what Mesmer needed. If you look at the whole class of Memser, Virtuoso doesn't add anything except in single target power dps. Do we really want this is identity of the new e-spec? Mesmer play rates have been consistently dropping across all modes over the last 2 years. It's not that Mesmer is unplayable, but it's in a bad position. The Mesmer class as a whole relied on Virtuoso to save it, and it definitely didn't.

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Wrong. Virtuoso F1 and F2 shatters pierce, and F4 has an area attack. F3 is single-target, but so is core/chrono F3 unless traited. While virtuoso F3 has the potential to deliver 2.5s of daze in one hit, core/chrono F3 dazes will overlap if they hit simultaneously, requiring careful setup to get longer dazes from a single shatter.

Except Virtuoso F3 is the most obvious thing to dodge and a moving target that is not slowed can just walk away from it. If a target you are facing is strafing to left or right with regular speed, F3 will miss them. 

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Clones have their own forms of mitigation. They can be killed. Their movement can be blocked by terrain or by movement-blocking skills. You can see them coming and dodge as they shatter. If it takes too long for them to reach their target after they were commanded to shatter, they'll expire. Only way to guarantee a clone shatter is if the clones are already adjacent to the target and the target has no chance to react.

Any damage done to clones is damage not done to you. Chrono shatters can get super speed and if you are melee, which Chrono usually is, this doesn't matter at all. And being ranged is meaningless in raids and fractals. No one is ranged in these modes, as you need to stack for boons and healing. They will reach their target faster than Virtuoso bladesa, with their casting animation and travel time.

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Chrono F1 has a base coefficient of 3.2, and half of that comes after a delay and might therefore miss if the target moves. Virtuoso F1 has a base coefficient of 3.5. I guess once you take traits into effect, chrono F1 might pull a little ahead, but I don't see it being a big deal.
Virtuoso F2 deals more conditions in one hit than chrono F2. Chrono F2 does have the cooldown reduction, but virtuoso F2 has a lower base cooldown, and chrono F2 can't reduce its cooldown down to 7s or whatever it was any more - they actually come out about even in terms of cooldowns, which puts Virtuoso F2 ahead.

Of course, it does need to be considered that core/chrono shatters are instant activation and don't interrupt your regular attacks, while virtuoso shatters do. But that's going to be accounted for in the benchmark - and virtuoso can open with a full shatter ready to go. 

Chrono is not a condition class, therefore focusing on F2 is meaningless when other power based shatters are better than Virtuoso ones. Chrono shatters have less cooldowns, thanks to their inherent cooldowns and benefitting more from alacrity, has good synergy with Memser class as a whole. More shatters means more trait activation.

 

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Phantasms still exist, and phantasms count as illusions. This trait is reduced in value, though.

This was always a phantasm trait, and virtuoso still has phantasms. Clone strike damage is pretty negligible, and clones doing 15% more than not much is still not much. 

Phantasms are a smaller part of mesmer kit. Illusions not applying bleeds makes dueling trait line instantly 30% less effective for Virtuoso. You exactly have one phantasm ability with each weapon set. 

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This isn't a virtuoso-specific problem. Regular mesmer clones haven't had any compensation for "overloading" since clone death traits were removed a long time ago. I guess you could argue that condition clones or mirage clones provide a benefit for having all three up, so you're more willing to accept having clones overwrite if it means you keep 3 clones up persistently, but it's still generally good practice to shatter when you can quickly restock. That said, I wouldn't complain if surplus daggers were made to spontaneously shoot off.

With domination trait, Chrono clones can crit up to 900 with sword auto. It's small damage, but nothing to ignore like you pretend to. Do you even play Chrono? Illusion auto chain of sword 1 is amazing. Not only it deals decent damage, they strip boons and apply vulnerability. Yeah that's the funny part, Virtuoso also has the weakest boon strip of all mesmers.

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See previous comment about 40k being about as high as ArenaNet lets anything sit at in raid scenarios before reaching for the nerfbat.

Yeah, making sword attacks count as blades would be huge for condi virtuoso - it's something I've been pondering myself. Condi virtuoso is all about stacking bleeds, so it'd be good to have something other than dagger that can do that.

Seen Catalyst?

 

Not true, you've just been No True Scotsman-ing everyone who disagrees with you.

So to summarize, Virtuoso adds nothing to mesmer except 1k more power dps. It's not good in pvp, it's not good in wvw (two areas Mesmers has been the weakest recently). It loses clones but does not get enough compensation. Virtuoso dagger is the most uninspired weapon ANET has ever released. It does damage and nothing else. On top of my mind, no weapon in the game is like that. They all have something baked on them. A cripple maybe, mobility, and things like that. Dagger is all damage and it's not even that impressive. In terms of power damage, sword and dagger are pretty equal, yet sword provides mobility, cripple, boon strip, vulnerability and evade window and if traited, better cooldowns and more ferocity.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[Dadnir.5038]

11 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

In case you (or others) are not aware: It originally applied Alacrity on the final pulse. Which was also bad. The main idea of Wells was Chronomancers using Continuum Split but shifting back to basically benefit from those effects twice themselves. It's quite ironic how Specter does Wells and Alacrity so much better than Chrono nowadays.

 

That being said, Chrono might be the easiest to salvage of all the Mesmer eSpecs if ANet finally made up their mind what each spec is supposed to be. For Chrono, at this point in time, Healing, Quickness and some Power build with Slow would be an obvious pick. For Wells the "great effect at the end"-design definitely turned out to be a mistake and I'm in favor of getting rid of the delayed effects.

I don't disagree with you, apart for what I see as you implying that "healing" is part of the chronomancer's role. You'd have to do many tweak to the chronomancer and even core mesmer in order to create something that is "good" at healing compared to the healing output the other healers of the game provide.

 

 

[godfat.2604]

11 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Well (haha), back then Chronomancers were powerhouses with a monopoly on Alacrity and Quickness. The downsides of Wells didn't matter that much back then. The design idea is still alright. However, it is just no fun, really. It's too in effecient and not worth the effort.

Exactly, as long as it's strong enough, I think it's alright. I missed the purple flames. The wells were still not effective while clashing in a group fight in WvW as everyone were constantly moving, but we can also pre-buff. This is never going back though, and they never balanced properly in this way anyway.

11 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

It is harder to balance and sometimes flavor is just bad for gameplay. Cough. Mirrors. Cough.

Harder to balance doesn't mean we can't do it, oh well yes Anet can't do it that's indeed much proven over the years. I gave up. As for mirrors.... I never liked it and hated it so much. I really don't want to play a mini-game while in-combat. It's just too clunky and to make it less clunky, the duration of those mirrors need to last much longer, maybe more than 10 seconds. Then we shouldn't get a full mirage cloak effect otherwise it'll be way too OP to stack so many mirrors, or maybe mirrors need to have a limit, like 3 at most. I'll vote for removing it altogether though. Anet just can't get this right at all.

11 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Designing an eSpec around their Utilities isn't that great, imho. It limits build diversity for that spec because it will only reach its full potential if equipped with those Utilities. Like how only Rage skills influence Berserker mode. Like how Mirage is desperate for Deceptions to get more Mirrors (at least outside PvP). Like how Mechanist basically always wants to run Signets. And this also applies to Virtuoso, honestly. Because you basically need those Utilities to get more "blade" effects to trigger your traits.

I totally agree with this. Having synergies is good, but it can't just all circling around one single aspect. That's making it too obvious to pick a particular build which greatly kills diversity. Jagged Mind + Bloodsong is a very good example that it makes no sense to just pick one of them. Players are forced to pick both, or none. In this case it's better to just merge 2 traits into one. That would be OP, yes, tweak it accordingly, add another useful trait as compensation. I don't know why it's so hard for Anet.

While I mentioned Jagged Mind, I would also like to mention that Jagged Mind doing 1 second bleeding in WvW is completely useless. I don't want to go into details because there were plenty on the forum already... so just saying.

[Levetty.1279]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

make the clone-based elite specialisation of your dreams

If you are going to argue disingenuously and claim this is the point people are making then why should we bother reading your posts?

[Veprovina.4876]

I love how, when trying to defend Virtuoso, everyone always defaults to #deepeeesONgolem.

 

Really... In roaming it's useless, in group WvW it's useless, in Zergs it's kinda useless, in high ranking PvP - there's been people in those tiers that can confirm no one plays Virtuoso, and if someone does, they die too easily and mess up their team. 

 

Lastly, how about we stop having DPSonGOLEM as a valid argument? It was never a valid argument and it's finally showing why, what i've been telling people already.

 

You can't balance a game based on the top ceiling of what a class is capable of in Raids. Because only a smallest number of playerbase even plays raids, and those who can reach golem numbers in actual boss scenarios are even less. 

So why are open world players being balanced around what 0.5% people can do?

 

Look what happened to Catalyst. Some inside hitbox shenanigans happened on golem, that never ever happen in normal gameplay, and it got nerfed because of Golem numbers. By 10k!!! Seriously Anet? Now i want my desert heroics back for unlocking it.

 

Look at what is happening to Dragon End meta. It got ridiculously overtuned because Anet was i'm positively sure, using golem benchmarks to "balance" the event. And in the begining, no one could do it because - golem is not a valid metric!!!

 

How about, if your raid players are overperforming on golems, you buff bosses instead of nerfing players over and over? If nerfs are all players are ever going to get, without tweaking the world around them too, it's only going to get worse.

 

And as i've already said a bunch of times, make Raids balance separately to open world, Fractals and Strikes like WvW and PvP is. Cause to balance the whole game around content that barely anyone plays is asinine. 

 

And since strikes and Fractals are "the logical continuation of open world endgame" they would have to be left as is, open world builds.

 

But... NOBODY CAN DO GOLEM BENCHMARK IN REAL SCENARIO!

 

The fact that Virtuoso can do 1k dps over chrono on a golem means nothing, and even if it does, it's really sad that this 1k is all we got when, it's never going to be visible in normal gameplay, and what, we had to sacrifice all usability in WvW and PvP for that 1k golem deepeees? 

[Xaylin.1860]

18 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

For them being able to split identity across e-spec it should be:

Chrono = More focus on slows, since it's original concept of alacrity and quickness is given to every other profession, capitalize on slow more. Double down on the slow quickness alacrity, obv not 100% uptime but enough to make a impact.

Mirage = Infinite Horizon in minor is a good idea but will get rejected by everyone else. 

Virtuoso = Allow back casting, keep the cast time w/e but allow back casting and actively reduce CD of shatters depending on blades used. I don't mean alacrity I mean flat seconds reduced per blades used.

On my phone. So sorry for bad formating/quotes in advance.

 

Agree on Chrono. Plus, above average Phantasm play, of course.

 

You are probably right with Mirage. But at this point, is anyone seriously using the other GM traits? Not saying they're useless. But when looking on how they affect gameplay, they are neglectable. So in most instances, Mirage is probably balanced around IH anyway. I'd argue Ambushs are the bigger issue here. Imho, it is bad having them tied to Dodge and Mirrors. But I can't remember ANet ever communicating how they feel about this topic. It has always been about the Dodge and evade frames.

 

For Virtuoso, we're probably stuck with either pDPS or cDPS. I guess that's fine. But the current state - not talking about DPS benchs - clearly isn't. 

[Xaylin.1860]

7 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I don't disagree with you, apart for what I see as you implying that "healing" is part of the chronomancer's role. You'd have to do many tweak to the chronomancer and even core mesmer in order to create something that is "good" at healing compared to the healing output the other healers of the game provide.

I agree with you. The healing part is just my personal opinion. I think ANet never really intended for Chrono to be one. However, from all eSpecs Chrono probably has the best potential to cover this role. Inspiration already synegizes quite well. However, Alls Well that's Well would need a buff and we would also need a bit more to cater this role.

 

For example, small theorycrafting rework: If CP was a Minor, we could dedicate the bottom line to Healing and Alacrity. The GM could grant nearby allies Alacrity and some other benefit when casting a Phantasm. It would directly compete with Quickness, so no Problem. Alls Well that ends Well could heal per pulse instead only at the end. Improved Alacrity could heal allies when granting them Alacrity. The idea is not perfect. But aside from the CP part the rework is actually very simple and efficient. 

7 hours ago, godfat.2604 said:

I totally agree with this. Having synergies is good, but it can't just all circling around one single aspect. That's making it too obvious to pick a particular build which greatly kills diversity. Jagged Mind + Bloodsong is a very good example that it makes no sense to just pick one of them. Players are forced to pick both, or none. In this case it's better to just merge 2 traits into one. That would be OP, yes, tweak it accordingly, add another useful trait as compensation. I don't know why it's so hard for Anet.

I only partly agree. Jagged Mind is quite self-sufficient with Dagger, Pistol and Psyonics. But for Bloodsong... sure. Because... you know... Sharper Images doesn't work well/properly with Virtuoso (trololololo).

 

Two issues that relate to this: First, blades are basically only used to make Bleeding work. You get Vulnerability for free and power builds don't actually need to build for gaining a benefit. It is weird and totally devalues the idea of having blades. Second, the middle row is inconsistent hot garbage, sorry. Since top is power and bottom is condi, we don't really have an alternative to mix and match. [Edit] Psychic Riposte works quite well with Scepter, of course. But Bloodsong is probably better in most condi builds.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Xaylin.1860

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

You are probably right with Mirage. But at this point, is anyone seriously using the other GM traits? Not saying they're useless. But when looking on how they affect gameplay, they are neglectable. So in most instances, Mirage is probably balanced around IH anyway. I'd argue Ambushs are the bigger issue here. Imho, it is bad having them tied to Dodge and Mirrors. But I can't remember ANet ever communicating how they feel about this topic. It has always been about the Dodge and evade frames.

Like i said before, before the elusive mind nerf and even after they slapped it with exhaustion, no one bothered with IH. The only reason why IH is being used is because if you look at the other 2 GMs realistically, no one in their right minds will choose them. 

Elusive mind is a 2 condi cleanse per 8 seconds, compared to other classes that have condi cleanse on traits this is def not worth taking, and if you WvW sigil of cleansing is 3 per 9 seconds.

Dune Cloak...this trait was never used since launch nor was it used after it's changes.

February 25, 2020	Competitive content update: (Competitive split) Reduced power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.5.
July 16, 2019	This trait has been reworked and new visual effects have been added. It now attacks at the end of Mirage Cloak rather than the beginning. Additionally, its damage has been increased by 100%, and instead of inflicting bleeding it now removes a boon from up to 5 foes on hit. The mirage gains a copy of any boon removed.
September 22, 2017	Path of Fire release: Dune Cloak has been added to the game.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Xaylin.1860]

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Like i said before, before the elusive mind nerf and even after they slapped it with exhaustion, no one bothered with IH. The only reason why IH is being used is because if you look at the other 2 GMs realistically, no one in their right minds will choose them. 

EM just happened to be the most potent Stunbreak in the game with unnerfed Vigor and 2 Dodges plus Mesmers being desperate for anything that freed up Utility slots to begin with. However, IH was always more interesting mechanically and still the damage pick even back then.

 

Regarding Dune Cloak... still wished they would have incorporated Might and Alacrity there if they really had to. I always loved playing Staff (in PvP) but Staff/Staff builds make me die inside due to their lack of dimension.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Dune cloak is still useless because it only strips 1 per 1 dodge and even when u had 2 dodges it was 2 per 2 dodge, given the amount of boons in this game it really isn't that great.

Granted you also need to be in close combat for this to work is an absolute waste of dodge.

VS something like "Feed from Corruption" which is the way better version of Dune Cloak.

[godfat.2604]

3 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Jagged Mind is quite self-sufficient with Dagger, Pistol and Psyonics. But for Bloodsong... sure. Because... you know... Sharper Images doesn't work well/properly with Virtuoso (trololololo).

I missed mentioning my assumption. I don't think condition Virtuoso will work, thus I only consider power builds. If we're talking about condition Virtuoso, then I agree Jagged Mind can be a potential pick alone. Ironically, I ended up with Jagged Mind + Bloodsong for open world play, even on an Assassin build. It's really the fastest way to stock blades and spam Bladesongs with max blades. Bleeding damage can be disregarded though, of course.

As for Sharper Images... yeah maybe if it works Bloodsong can be a potential pick alone. I seriously don't understand how Anet can ignore this at all, but I guess we shouldn't be too surprised given how incapable they had been proven.

[Lethion.8745]

Noo, it's soooo good at killing open world mobs and the pretty animations 😭... I love Virtuoso 😍

(Any 'Mesmer' in Reddit)

[Mell.4873]

18 hours ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

It's completely inferior to Mirage.

Yes but doesn't require clones and has a much faster ramp up.

18 hours ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

 It's not that Chrono can deal near 40k and provide boons. But it's in the arsenal of the class. So Virtuoso effectively adds nothing to the overall capability of the class, but 1k DPS?

Chronomancer cant provide boons while preforming the benchmark dps, don't lie

Edited March 18, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

7 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I agree with you. The healing part is just my personal opinion. I think ANet never really intended for Chrono to be one. However, from all eSpecs Chrono probably has the best potential to cover this role. Inspiration already synegizes quite well. However, Alls Well that's Well would need a buff and we would also need a bit more to cater this role.

I'd absolutely love to have a dedicated healer mesmer e-spec, healers are always my favourite role to fill in rpgs, but honestly trying to make chrono a healer on the same level as druid or specter would feel rather tacked on and shoehorned in my opinion. It'd end up unstable and hard to balance, probably becoming either overloaded like firebrand or overnerfed so it doesn't excel on anything in particular, unless of course it got a *deep* rework; traits, mechanics and all.

I really don't like how chrono's main role has been bounced around so much, from tank, to boon support, to pDPS, all the while anet keeps nerfing all sides leaving the job teetering on the brink of irrelevance, adding heal to that without reworking the rest of the espec might just push it over the top and have a-net nerf it to nothingness.

I'd much rather they streamlined the espec, in particular the traits, to focus on at most 2 aspects. They clearly can't handle more than that.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Hirosama Nadasaki.6792

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, Hirosama Nadasaki.6792 said:

I'd absolutely love to have a dedicated healer mesmer e-spec, healers are always my favourite role to fill in rpgs, but honestly trying to make chrono a healer on the same level as druid or spected would feel rather tacked on and shoehorned in my opinion. It'd end up unstable and hard to balance, probably becoming either overloaded like firebrand or overnerfed so it doesn't excel on anything in particular, unless of course it got a *deep* rework; traits, mechanics and all.

I really don't like how chrono's main role has been bounced around so much, from tank, to boon support, to pDPS, all the while anet keeps nerfing all sides leaving the job teetering on the brink of irrelevance, adding heal to that without reworking the rest of the espec might just push it over the top and have a-net nerf it to nothingness.

I'd much rather they streamlined the espec, in particular the traits, to focus on at most 2 aspects. They clearly can't handle more than that.

I found two options:

1. Chronomancer with Harriers, Scepter and Mantras/Quickness: The healing potential is crazy with you able to burst heal someone from nothing to full with all your cooldowns for free with a well timed Continuum Split. The other option which  is to save Continuum Split for Illusion of Life which for some reason doesn't put them back into the downed state if you keep healing them.
2. Mirage with ritual/viper, staff and Feedback/signets: The goal here is not really heal as much as provide Aegis to prevent damage. The potential here is nuts, I have been able to fully resurrect entire raids of people by stacking feedbacks from utility and trait. Then by using signets you can provide on demand Aegis to everyone, the real trick is to get boon duration above 50%.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Veprovina.4876]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Yes but doesn't require clone has much faster ramp up.

 

I can summon and shatter 3 clones on core mesmer by the time it takes Virtuoso to cast Bladesong Harmony, but unlike Virtuoso, i can also Use Sword 2 for additional burst WHILE i shatter, and it'll do more damage, i mean seriously Mell, start thinking critically. What fast ramp up? Core shatter builds have always been a thing and the ramp up was always way faster than Virtuoso is now because - core shatters have no cast time.

No one is ever going to take you seriously if you keep defending bad design and obvious problems.

And Virtuoso is never going to be better if people don't point out what could be better instead of outright lying about it.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Veprovina.4876

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

I can summon and shatter 3 clones on core mesmer by the time it takes Virtuoso to cast Bladesong Harmony, but unlike Virtuoso, i can also Use Sword 2 for additional burst WHILE i shatter, and it'll do more damage, i mean seriously Mell, start thinking critically. What fast ramp up? Core shatter builds have always been a thing and the ramp up was always way faster than Virtuoso is now because - core shatters have no cast time.

No one is ever going to take you seriously if you keep defending bad design and obvious problems.

And Virtuoso is never going to be better if people don't point out what could be better instead of outright lying about it.

Honestly i cant even remember what we arguing but i agree with everything you said except for when you criticized me of coarse.

I mostly point out the Virtuosos strengths

Edited March 18, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Veprovina.4876]

7 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Honestly i cant even remember what we arguing but i agree with everything you said except for when you criticized me of coarse.

I mostly point out the Virtuoso strengths

I quoted you in what i responded to... Pointing out that what you think is a Virtuoso strength, objectively isn't.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Veprovina.4876

[Mell.4873]

1 minute ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

I quoted you in what i responded to... Pointing out that what you think is a Virtuoso strength, objectively isn't.

Well I disagree I guess