Mech still hits too hard (numbers)

[coro.3176]

Mechanist's pet is still autoattacking harder than actual players do.

Mech:

• Hard Strike - 1/4s 548(0.33)
• Heavy Smash - 1/2s 548(0.33)
• Twin Strike - 1/2s (x2) 1994(1.2)

Player:

• Fragmentation Shot - 1/2s (but actually > 3/4s) 98(0.266), 132 bleed
• Hip Shot - 3/4s 186(0.44) 

The mech skills read like they're tuned for something big and slow, but the mech isn't slow. It's actually quite fast and will catch up and start beating on players if they ever stop kiting.

Something doesn't feel right when I attack a player's pet for ¬300 damage per hit, and it attacks me back faster for ¬800-1700 per hit. Yes, I know you're supposed to kite it, but this is unrealistic in actual PvP, because a lot of times you do have to hold a point (to contest a circle, res or stomp, etc.)

Edited March 16, 2022 by coro.3176

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Ideally it should do the same autoattack damage as a clone

[UNOwen.7132]

Engineers non-kit autoattacks are weak compared to regular autoattacks too. Thats why you use grenades. Besides, autoattack is all the mech can do, and you lose very powerful toolbelt skills for it. It hardly even seems good now that you can just cc it down.

[coro.3176]

11 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Engineers non-kit autoattacks are weak compared to regular autoattacks too. Thats why you use grenades. Besides, autoattack is all the mech can do, and you lose very powerful toolbelt skills for it. It hardly even seems good now that you can just cc it down.

This argument doesn't really hold up, because it's doing these attacks for free in the background while the mechanist can still use weapon skills + kits at the same time. And you don't really lose toolbelt skills. You trade them for mech skills which are as good or better than most. CC-ing the mech stops it briefly, but that is you spending time and a cooldown to deal with something that is just passively up and attacking you.

Also, it's not just better than Engineer skills. Have a look at other classes' attacks and coefficients. The mech is arguably better than most if not all of them.

Edited March 16, 2022 by coro.3176

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

18 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Engineers non-kit autoattacks are weak compared to regular autoattacks too. Thats why you use grenades. Besides, autoattack is all the mech can do, and you lose very powerful toolbelt skills for it. It hardly even seems good now that you can just cc it down.

Watch Roms latest stream and get back to us

[UNOwen.7132]

52 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

This argument doesn't really hold up, because it's doing these attacks for free in the background while the mechanist can still use weapon skills + kits at the same time. And you don't really lose toolbelt skills. You trade them for mech skills which are as good or better than most. CC-ing the mech stops it briefly, but that is you spending time and a cooldown to deal with something that is just passively up and attacking you.

I would hardly call "giving up an entire traitline and toolbelt skills as well as any elite spec mechanic like holoforge" for free, exactly. And no, you lose toolbelt skills. The mech skills are worse than all toolbelts, and you have 3 instead of 4. Like, the mech skills are so horrible, most builds shouldnt use them. You definitely never use Jade Revolver or Sky Circus.

 

52 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

Also, it's not just better than Engineer skills. Have a look at other classes' attacks and coefficients. The mech is arguably better than most if not all of them.

Yeah no. 0.66 every, what is it, 1.2 seconds? Even for a ranged attack thats low. Thats worse than thieves pistol. And thieves pistol is terrible as a power attacker. And melee obviously blows it outta the water. As for the melee chain, ignoring how easy it is to break that since the mech has no mobility, that one takes a long time to complete.

[coro.3176]

1 hour ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Yeah no. 0.66 every, what is it, 1.2 seconds? Even for a ranged attack thats low. Thats worse than thieves pistol. And thieves pistol is terrible as a power attacker. And melee obviously blows it outta the water. As for the melee chain, ignoring how easy it is to break that since the mech has no mobility, that one takes a long time to complete.

It's not even about the power coefficients (though, they're still higher than players' in the same time period) . It's the whopping base damage that is frustrating here. Even with no power investment, the mech still smacks. It's also not that easy to kite the mech 24/7 because unlike WvW, PvP requires you to hold points. That's why mechanist is too effective as a side-noder.

If you add up all the damage the mech autos + mech skills do and compare it to toolbelt + third traitline, (possibly excepting grenade barrage) I guarantee the mech comes out on top, even if you spec it as full defense.

Edited March 16, 2022 by coro.3176

[Stalima.5490]

34 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

It's not even about the power coefficients (though, they're still higher than players' in the same time period) . It's the whopping base damage that is frustrating here. Even with no power investment, the mech still smacks. It's also not that easy to kite the mech 24/7 because unlike WvW, PvP requires you to hold points. That's why mechanist is too effective as a side-noder.

If you add up all the damage the mech autos + mech skills do and compare it to toolbelt + third traitline, (possibly excepting grenade barrage) I guarantee the mech comes out on top, even if you spec it as full defense.

That might be the case if people are standing around doing nothing but the second they jump ontop of a box the entire mech becomes more or less zero, and if it's doing any meaningful power damage in melee then your team can just coordinate and kill it in seconds since it won't have any defenses or much dodge capabilities.

 

The issue people seem to have with mechanist is that everyone just ignores the mech and lets it do whatever it wants, but with enough conditions, the mech can't even play the game.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Stalima.5490

[Vancho.8750]

Lol by the numbers it hits harder than Reaper shroud Or Axe on Warrior (probably the heaviest dps auto attack chains) with no investment. It's ranger birb all over again but the birb is quite squishy and this one probably is tankier than most players. 
I know Arenanet doesn't care about PVP, but at least it should pretend it does and they should be consistent with the designs and rules.

[UNOwen.7132]

2 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

It's not even about the power coefficients (though, they're still higher than players' in the same time period) . It's the whopping base damage that is frustrating here. Even with no power investment, the mech still smacks. It's also not that easy to kite the mech 24/7 because unlike WvW, PvP requires you to hold points. That's why mechanist is too effective as a side-noder.

Uh. There is no "base damage" In GW2. Damage is purely a function of the coefficient. The mech has a base power, and inherits yours baseline. Hence why its damage is not very impressive. And you can kite in a circle. Its effective as a sidenoder because you can make yourself practically unkillable and just spam cc.

 

2 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

If you add up all the damage the mech autos + mech skills do and compare it to toolbelt + third traitline, (possibly excepting grenade barrage) I guarantee the mech comes out on top, even if you spec it as full defense.

And you would be wrong. Even if you spec full power as Mechanist, meuch auto + mech skills vs prot holo, prot holo wins the damage race by a mile. Again, Mechanists advantage is its tankiness and ability to CC spam. As a damage dealer, its not great. The mech autos are wet noodles, and the mech skills are straight up not worth using because they do less DPS than the autos.

[coro.3176]

23 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

And you would be wrong. Even if you spec full power as Mechanist, meuch auto + mech skills vs prot holo, prot holo wins the damage race by a mile. Again, Mechanists advantage is its tankiness and ability to CC spam. As a damage dealer, its not great. The mech autos are wet noodles, and the mech skills are straight up not worth using because they do less DPS than the autos.

I should have specified, but I meant normal traitlines, not elite spec. Holo is obviously busted, as I have complained about many times. It is pure power creep and one of the things unbalancing the game. You'll never have core specs be competitive with something like Holo or Mechanist when the spec is giving a free high-damage, high-utility kit that only takes up one toolbelt slot. Anyway..

As I've said, the mech autos are not wet noodles. They literally deal 700-1700 damage. My autoattack deals 300 + maybe 300 bleed damage before it's cleansed.

Edited March 17, 2022 by coro.3176

[coro.3176]

43 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Uh. There is no "base damage" In GW2. Damage is purely a function of the coefficient. The mech has a base power, and inherits yours baseline. Hence why its damage is not very impressive. And you can kite in a circle. Its effective as a sidenoder because you can make yourself practically unkillable and just spam cc.

quick search of balance update notes:

• "Leeching Venoms: Reduced life-stealing base damage from 320 to 160 in PvP and WvW. Reduced life-stealing power coefficient from 0.0333 to 0.0165 in PvP and WvW."
• "This skill no longer deals bonus damage if a missile is reflected. Increased base damage by 80%"
• "Reduced base damage from 133 to 100 in PvP and WvW. Reduced power scaling from 0.05 to 0.0375 in PvP and WvW"

etc. I'm not sure if this refers to weapon strength, or default power, or something else, but if it is indeed just the coefficient, then the numbers on the wiki are wrong, but the numbers on the wiki do roughly correspond to what I see in game, so I think they're right.

Edited March 17, 2022 by coro.3176

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

I feel bad for Mechanists in general because they were designed in a corner. The mech -has- to be frustratingly busted for the spec to be useful, and any nerf that makes the mech counterplayable  in any significant manner runs the risk of making them a liability competitively.

[Tinkerer.2167]

8 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

Mechanist's pet is still autoattacking harder than actual players do.

Mech:

• Hard Strike - 1/4s 548(0.33)
• Heavy Smash - 1/2s 548(0.33)
• Twin Strike - 1/2s (x2) 1994(1.2)

Player:

• Fragmentation Shot - 1/2s (but actually > 3/4s) 98(0.266), 132 bleed
• Hip Shot - 3/4s 186(0.44) 

The mech skills read like they're tuned for something big and slow, but the mech isn't slow. It's actually quite fast and will catch up and start beating on players if they ever stop kiting.

Something doesn't feel right when I attack a player's pet for ¬300 damage per hit, and it attacks me back faster for ¬800-1700 per hit. Yes, I know you're supposed to kite it, but this is unrealistic in actual PvP, because a lot of times you do have to hold a point (to contest a circle, res or stomp, etc.)

Right, but now it can be controlled

And yes, you are supposed to kite it because the only one that will hit you consistently while you kite is the ranged mech, which isn't that good because projectile denial is way too rampant in 1v1 matches. If you're arguing for not wanting to get hit AT ALL in a given fight, well, then what's the point of the AI pet to begin with.

You'll just get destroyed by a good fresh air ele, and if you don't think that's the case - duel grimjack on it.  Considering mech is basically a side node role at this point, the dueling reference makes way too much sense, which weaver or cata should hold up quite well to it now that the mech can be controlled much easier without defiance.

He demonstrates how easy it is to not only control the mech, but utilize that denial to render it useless. With melee it's even worse, it has a windup time on it's 1st attack of the animation, which means 80% of the fight you will probably never get hit by a full attack chain. Melee attacks have a 1/3 windup time on the first attack, yet you say it's fast, that's slow.

I don't think you understand, from the moment you stop, the mech stops -> starts wind up animation -> hits you -> then proceeds to try the 2nd attack in the chain with an ICD -> refreshes animation after you move... That's slow. Where you're getting the idea that they're fast outside of having quickness is beyond me, because they aren't as fast as you're making them out to be.

What made it busted before was the fact that weakness, chill, hard cc, etc didn't affect it until the breakbar was gone. It was literally an un-soft-cc'able machine that hit hard. Now you can do aoe weakness and mitigate a massive amount of it's damage, and it dies a lot easier now too while also potentially not doing as much damage.

With the loss of toolbelt skills, and entire trait line unusable and a mech that goes on a 45 second cooldown with traits that don't benefit the engineer nearly as much, it's way too many "tradeoffs". It's really really easy now to condi spam down the mech on point, and I know because Anya who runs condition vindi/demon eats it alive and has tons of mobility to kite out the only advantage a mech has against you -> sit on point and eat damage. The mech doesn't have efficient enough movement to reward chases and you run mace in most cases on a side node build, so you yourself don't even have chase potential.

The examples above with rev and ele are not meant to say that it's bad now (because it's not), it's meant to show it can be countered or at the very least have outplay potential now while also being durable enough to provide a role as a side noder, this in my mind is a good stance to take on their balance without removing a spec entirely.

--

With that said though, the only time a mech will hit you hard is when you run pre/ferocity trait and you build around your amulet being glass, but the clincher there is you can't run alchemy/inventions to have the damage numbers you need to be offensive enough to have a good defense as a bursty spec. You'll have 11-12k orbitals, and your mech will hit for 1.9-2k per auto , but you will have almost no cleanse.

Holo is able to do it because the toolbelt skills and holo leap made it worth doing and the barrage allowed enough offense to make it viable dmg along with sword skills when heat is managed nicely. You can't do that with mech, you lose all of those abilities with mech - so a burst variant is a meme. The only real good build atm with mech is the side node alch/explosive/boon mech build or a variant of condi with the same stuff but with pistol instead of mace.

Also, you're even more limited in your mech traits because they directly tie to how your mech does damage. This wasn't a big deal before because the mech had a defiance bar. Now it is a big deal.

There's a reason why mechs dont hit as hard with the side node build, because you have to run the conc/vit trait to get access to the boons needed to tank damage along with the condi removal needed to fight against condi 1v1 specs while also having enough defense to take +1's (ranger does it better now that the mech is cc'able). So not only is there a few tradeoffs in the spec itself, theres dmg type tradeoffs in the trait selections of the spec lines also. Which is fine.

I think mech is in a good spot atm, you can now run weaver or ranger and with the nerfs to mech and vindi the untamed and bladesworn are already much much better. Even catalyst is looking better now.

I think they did a good job this time around nerfing the mech just enough without completely removing it and I think mech is fine now.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Tinkerer.2167

[Tinkerer.2167]

Like if you were able to swap out the mech and put it away for access to your toolbelt skills, it would allow for a better "swap and play" mechanic. You could queue up putting your mech away and use some other skills to micro-manage.

Only then would I not mind nerfing the dmg on mech, because then you could do stuff yourself while also actively handling your mech management.

The problem is moreso that most survivability on engi was in the toolbelt skills, so you have this kind of necessary use of the defensive trait lines in Mechanist line to make up for that, but that leaves you in a corner for anything else possible on a mech build.

For this reason I think the mech hitting harder than a normal ranger pet for example should, is warranted. If you nerf dmg on the mech itself, you might as say goodbye to this spec unless you give it other stuff to compensate for it, because it wouldn't even be able to sit on a point (its only good role) and if it hit less, a bursty variant which already isn't do-able definitely wouldn't work.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Tinkerer.2167

[Xenash.1245]

What would make it balanced in your opinion?

[Stalima.5490]

2 hours ago, Tinkerer.2167 said:

Like if you were able to swap out the mech and put it away for access to your toolbelt skills, it would allow for a better "swap and play" mechanic. You could queue up putting your mech away and use some other skills to micro-manage.

Only then would I not mind nerfing the dmg on mech, because then you could do stuff yourself while also actively handling your mech management.

The problem is moreso that most survivability on engi was in the toolbelt skills, so you have this kind of necessary use of the defensive trait lines in Mechanist line to make up for that, but that leaves you in a corner for anything else possible on a mech build.

For this reason I think the mech hitting harder than a normal ranger pet for example should, is warranted. If you nerf dmg on the mech itself, you might as say goodbye to this spec unless you give it other stuff to compensate for it, because it wouldn't even be able to sit on a point (its only good role) and if it hit less, a bursty variant which already isn't do-able definitely wouldn't work.

I disagree with you because if they open the toobelt up in this manner it will create a really bad gameplay flow of needing to unsummon and resummon the pet with that super slow crash down... It really won't feel very good to keep doing that over and over.

 

If anything, they should simply create a secondary mode for the mech with alternative functions which is activated any time the mech dies or is unsummoned, for example, if it had aerial mode where the mech is effectively gone but has a different, weaker version of the abilities that are shared with the ground ability cooldowns.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

4 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

quick search of balance update notes:

• "Leeching Venoms: Reduced life-stealing base damage from 320 to 160 in PvP and WvW. Reduced life-stealing power coefficient from 0.0333 to 0.0165 in PvP and WvW."
• "This skill no longer deals bonus damage if a missile is reflected. Increased base damage by 80%"
• "Reduced base damage from 133 to 100 in PvP and WvW. Reduced power scaling from 0.05 to 0.0375 in PvP and WvW"

etc. I'm not sure if this refers to weapon strength, or default power, or something else, but if it is indeed just the coefficient, then the numbers on the wiki are wrong, but the numbers on the wiki do roughly correspond to what I see in game, so I think they're right.

I’m pretty certain that there is no such thing as base damage, at least not for player skills, other than the skill coefficient.

 

My guess about Anets language is the same as yours…when they talk about base damage in update notes they are probably referring to weapon strength or default power of the pet. For the venom change their when they say 330 to 160 this aligns with a change in power coefficient (.033 to .016) so they listed the same change twice (They tend to do this often but not all the time.)

 

Anet has no rational way to describe some of their systems. For example, raids, fractals and dungeons are all classified as “dungeons” where strike missions and dragon response missions are classified as “missions.” Doesn’t make much sense when you consider that strikes and raids have 10 man setups and the others have 5 but are split into different classifications, based on I suppose the “story” rather than the how the actual system works functionally loL

Edited March 17, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[ArthurDent.9538]

6 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I’m pretty certain that there is no such thing as base damage, at least not for player skills, other than the skill coefficient.

 

My guess about Anets language is the same as yours…when they talk about base damage in update notes they are probably referring to weapon strength or default power of the pet. For the venom change their when they say 330 to 160 this aligns with a change in power coefficient (.033 to .016) so they listed the same change twice (They tend to do this often but not all the time.)

 

Anet has no rational way to describe some of their systems. For example, raids, fractals and dungeons are all classified as “dungeons” where strike missions and dragon response missions are classified as “missions.” Doesn’t make much sense when you consider that strikes and raids have 10 man setups and the others have 5 but are split into different classifications, based on I suppose the “story” rather than the how the actual system works functionally loL

Life steal is simply different from normal power damage in that it scales more like healing skills having a base value and a scaling contribution. Normal power damage only has a power coefficient and a weapon strength with no base values.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Mechanist is fine now.

Removing break bar hit it pretty hard.

Tbh I think it should have been compensated with something for the removal of break bar.

I feel like Mechanist is actually kind of mediocre now that the mech can be CC'd.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

3 hours ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Life steal is simply different from normal power damage in that it scales more like healing skills having a base value and a scaling contribution.

 

Pretty sure that is not true.

 

Edit: (I stand corrected)

• Damage[edit]

Each life steal deals a specific amount of damage ignoring armor. The damage they deal is also unaffected by % damage increases, such as the Sigil of Force or the Close to Death trait. Some scale off of power while others don't.

• Damage dealt is not affected by damage boosts or armor.
• Damage cannot critically hit.

I guess  what you said is not false either, in that it deals a "set amount of armor ignoring damage." There's nothing here that states that it doesn't still abide by the damage equation (Scaling with weapon strength, power coefficient). It's also strange language because if you do a "set" amount of damage "sometimes" scales with power and others not...why does it have a power coefficient then?...idk doesn't make sense.

Like i get it they want Life steal damage to scale with power investment...but what is the "set" damage even based on if not the damage equation? (weapon strength + Default 1000 power). If it ignores those parameters, then like you said, life steal simply does not follow the damage equation at all.

Anyway, I'm just going to just submit to you because I never tested to any serious degree how life steal works. I would maybe suggest testing it out just to clear the air on the topic. In my view, the language they use for damage in the game is ridiculously convoluted because this is like the third or fourth time dealing with inaccuracies and inconsistencies with the damage equation. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[lightDestroyer.1265]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Mechanist is fine now.

Removing break bar hit it pretty hard.

Tbh I think it should have been compensated with something for the removal of break bar.

I feel like Mechanist is actually kind of mediocre now that the mech can be CC'd.

What are u talking about.  It is still pretty good. 

[Tinkerer.2167]

12 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

I disagree with you because if they open the toobelt up in this manner it will create a really bad gameplay flow of needing to unsummon and resummon the pet with that super slow crash down... It really won't feel very good to keep doing that over and over.

 

If anything, they should simply create a secondary mode for the mech with alternative functions which is activated any time the mech dies or is unsummoned, for example, if it had aerial mode where the mech is effectively gone but has a different, weaker version of the abilities that are shared with the ground ability cooldowns.

Fair enough, I should have specified that too but yea, I was thinking along with that making swapping the mech out more fluid or almost as fluid as a ranger pet, but I think that would still introduce the same problem you're referring too and thematically wouldn't fit, since your mech would almost need to just disappear instead of it's fly up animation. Maybe rename it "Teleport away" xd and it just vanishes.
 

Mech just seems like a weird spec... Engineer from core to holo has always been about massive skill options and diversity which included a higher skill ceiling along with it, and with mech it basically takes a majority of that away and puts a reliance on an AI pet and you're even more pigeonholed by trait diversity between being more tanky or bursty along with mech trait choices directly affecting dmg. It's not a bad or horrible spec, it just takes it out of the engi mindset/playstyle that it's always shared between the 2 other spec variants and core.

[UNOwen.7132]

16 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

quick search of balance update notes:

• "Leeching Venoms: Reduced life-stealing base damage from 320 to 160 in PvP and WvW. Reduced life-stealing power coefficient from 0.0333 to 0.0165 in PvP and WvW."
• "This skill no longer deals bonus damage if a missile is reflected. Increased base damage by 80%"
• "Reduced base damage from 133 to 100 in PvP and WvW. Reduced power scaling from 0.05 to 0.0375 in PvP and WvW"

etc. I'm not sure if this refers to weapon strength, or default power, or something else, but if it is indeed just the coefficient, then the numbers on the wiki are wrong, but the numbers on the wiki do roughly correspond to what I see in game, so I think they're right.

These refer to "weapon strength". Traits have their own weapon strength. Probably just that. 

[UNOwen.7132]

17 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

I should have specified, but I meant normal traitlines, not elite spec. Holo is obviously busted, as I have complained about many times. It is pure power creep and one of the things unbalancing the game. You'll never have core specs be competitive with something like Holo or Mechanist when the spec is giving a free high-damage, high-utility kit that only takes up one toolbelt slot. Anyway..

As I've said, the mech autos are not wet noodles. They literally deal 700-1700 damage. My autoattack deals 300 + maybe 300 bleed damage before it's cleansed.

Why would you compare it to a core engineer, when core engineer is really bad. I wish it wasnt, but it is. This isnt even because "Holo is obviously busted" (at this point it isnt, its just good), its just that core engineer sucks.

 

Yes, 700-1700, for how much you give up for it, is wet noodles. And how are you doing 300 damage with an auto? Even a condi build using a condi weapon will do more.