How to fix Mesmer and give each elite an identity.

[Veprovina.4876]

Core - leave as is, generate clones to shatter, use phantasm skills

 

Chronomancer - Clones become immortal and can't do damage or attack on their own, strike or condi, nothing. F skills become targeted area effects that send your clones to the desired location for a desired effect. F1 - damage AOE, F2 - boon AOE, F3 - CC AOE - F4 continuum spllit. Clones become basically totems like renegade has, but with variable strenght. If you send just 1, it's a weaker effect than if you send 3. Clones fade out with time after a while of not used or when pulsing an F skill. Wells with effects that aren't strongest on 3rd pulse, just normal wells.

Traits centered around healing and support.

 

Mirage - Gains mirage cloak and deception skills. Can't shatter clones anymore. F skills become utility skills that mirage already has but maybe better, F4 can kep being distortion, (evade, swap with clones and ambush, detarget, etc.) new deception skills that empower clones for 1 ambush. Traits centered around condi and strike damage and selfish condi clense. Can't do boons except a few selfish ones.

 

Virtuoso - Loses ALL clones, phantasms too. Gets bladesongs as now, clones are replaced with daggers, phantasms with new blade skills similar to what the phantasm was (they stock a blade or two). Bladesongs on cast time (like now), but stronger AOE than core, and strong AOE utiltiy skills and elite. Traits centered around AOE capability, strike damage and defense.

 

Would be kinda nice if each was different.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

While I have absolutely zero expectations that Anet will pay attention to either mine or your rework concepts, I do have a lot of fun coming up with these, so here are my takes.

 

Chronomancer

 

Spoiler

 

If any mesmer e-spec would break from the F1-F4 format, I wish it'd be Chrono. Personally too, I don't like the idea of making chrono wells just normal wells, I really like that they at least tried to make it unique from wells, even if it didn't go so... well. Having said that, I'd personally make it something like the following:

Chrono still has clones, but no longer has the F1-F3 skills, only Continuum Split, and CS instead works something like Druid celestial form or Holosmith forge. When you summon a clone it fills up an energy gauge, using CS (which would have much reduced cooldown, like 10-15 seconds) drains that gauge for as long as you have it activated. Dying during CS or having your time anchor destroyed immediately zeroes your gauge and puts you back where you started. Wells no longer have a stronger third pulse, working like normal wells, but while you have CS activated your wells flip to have the opposite effect (e.g. Well of Recall would chill and damage enemies outside CS, and heal and alacrity allies during CS. Gravity well CCs enemies outside CS, and pulses stability and boons during CS).

 

 

Mirage

 

Spoiler

Still has mirage cloak, ambushes, and F1-F4 skills, but they're no longer shatters, and are commands instead, ordering the active clones to perform certain actions. Your suggestion of clone swapping and detargetting sounds like a good fit for such commands, sticking to the power-condi damage-CC-defense format. When a clone dies, they become a mirage mirror, which doesn't grant distortion anymore, but the mirage can press F5 to instantly teleport to the closest mirage mirror at no cooldown, consuming it.

 

Virtuoso

 

Spoiler

 

Were it for me, Bladesongs would be completely replaced. They'd instead create an illusionary weapon for you to wield, with a number of charges that depends on how many blades you used to summon them, functioning similar to how ele's conjured weapons used to work way back, or firebrand tomes. Each weapon from F1-F4 would fit the typical damage-condition-CC-defense role.

Alternatively, to keep more in-line with current Virtuoso's design, Bladesongs are still the same as they are now, but weaker, but also with way, way, less cooldown and no cast-time, and pump up blade generation appropriately, so it really becomes the shatter e-spec, rapid-firing blades. One of the grandmaster traits would massively increase cooldowns while also greatly empowering the Bladesongs, to switch from rapid-fire to an easier to play but still effective sniping gameplay.

 

 

[mungozen.2379]

Taking these one at a time...

Chrono:

Chrono Clones doing nothing is akin to what Blades are doing for Virtuoso right now.  Count to 3 or 5, and then dump.  The exception being if Clones were be targetable, thereby being a distraction to NPC or PvP/WvW players.  Not sure if this is a good or a bad suggestion.

The F3 sounds hard to optimize if your party/squad/zerg are not where the Shatter happens.  This is the Wells problem moved to F1-3

This also makes Condi Chrono harder if Staff and Scepter are not supported with Clone AA.  Although it looks like you want Chrono to not be Condi suitable.

I actually don't mind that Chrono Wells are strongest on the last pulse (they are unique and different from the others) but I would make a change to them.  Have the AoE expand with each pulse.

In review, I am not a fan of this direction for Chrono.

Mirage:

I like the idea of persistent clones (It's one of the core ideas behind my Mesmer Twin eSpec idea).  Does this mean that Clones would more easily move from target to target, or would they still despawn if the target dies?

I am not opposed to Mirage being pure DPS either, but I remember way back last April when Mirage couldn't share Alac, so maybe I am stuck in the past still.  Nah, I don't see why it shouldn't have Alac.

In review, this is a fine starting point, one that could be worked on.

Virtuoso:

Removing Phantasms, and replacing them with a different attack is an interesting idea.  The advantage of Phantasms is they do a good amount of DPS, and do so while you are off doing something else, likely more DPS.  Virtuoso has a fairly paced playstyle already with cast times on a bunch of skills and abilities.  The concern is this would further slow down the DPS rotation, and that the DPS loss would have to be spread around a bit, otherwise these new Phantasm skills would be fairly OP.  All things you could work with, of course, just an observation.  I am not sure if this is a good or a bad suggestion.

I am guessing that by AOE you do not mean the current piercing attacks but traditional circles.  The more I have played Virtuoso Bladesongs, the more I appreciate the difference in tactics they offer over typical shatters.  I currently find my Virtuoso AoE to be equal or better than Chrono (although I run a lot of kitten Chrono builds the last 6 months).

I note you also suggest Strike and Defensive but not Condi or Support, what types of roles would Virtuoso fulfill in this setup?

In review, I wouldn't change too too much yet with Virtuoso, but the Phantasm thing is an interesting idea.

 

Overall, and correct me if I am reading this wrong, but it sounds like you want each eSpec to have unique niche to fulfill.  I would think that each eSpec should fulfill 2 or 3 of following roles; Strike DPS, Condi DPS, Alac, Quick, Heals and Tanking (if that is still relevant).  Each eSpec should have at least 1 viable Condi or Strike build, maybe both.  As well Alac or Quick could be shared with Healing but not necessarily.  As such, I would suggest the following:

Chrono - Strike, Quick, Heals
Mirage - Condi, Alac, Tank?
Virtuoso - Condi, Strike

An interesting exercise!

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

6 minutes ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Overall, and correct me if I am reading this wrong, but it sounds like you want each eSpec to have unique niche to fulfill.

I'm not sure if this is what OP intended, but in my own view I think aiming for an unique role for each E-spec might not be feasible in the long run. It's definitely something important to consider if possible, but much more important that that in my opinion is making sure each spec plays differently, even when filling the same role.

[Dadnir.5038]

There are point I agree with and other I disagree. From my point of view:

- Core: can stay as it is.

- Chrono: I'd make chrono similar to virtuoso, giving up the clones for "time magic" through self-shatter (If virtuoso is ranged, chrono would be melee).

- Mirage: I'd move the ambushes to replace the shatter skills (dodging/evading would reduce the CD of the F skills instead of proc'ing an ambush). This would bring back the old "fantasm gameplay" except the attack would not be automatic.

- Virtuoso: It's current gameplay is fine, I'd just give it a focus on boon ripping to complete it.

That said I know all of this are pipe dream.

[Senqu.8054]

I really love the creative approaches. Would give e specs finally a unique touch instead of just being an addition to core. That clones are not shatter-able would result in other odd anti synergys but anyways, it’s a wonderful example what mesmer ESpecs could be.
 

In my opinion only one of the especs should be an enhancement to the normal shatters in the first place. The other 2 should basically do what scourge does to the necro class mechanic -> changing how the whole spec plays mechanically while following the foundations of the class thematically. 

Could also maybe solve the problem that GS S/T is the only really acceptable weapon combination for power mesmer on all specs inclusive core. It’s a shame that ANet isn’t able to find creative ways to shift the dependency on Makro shattering to other mechanical executions. 
 

I mean, don’t get me wrong, it’s fun to stack effects and it’s one of Mesmers defining game mechanics but the given mechanical foundation of token based shattering just doesn’t offer a lot of variety to build on in the first place. Virtuoso is an good example for this.
 

Like Hirosama said for example. I also imagine for mirage instead of shatter skills your clones would execute the ambush skills on F1-F3. Would change the whole playstyle of mirage from the ground. IH on dodge was a kitten approach in the first place. Seriously. 

It could have been such a wonderful game. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Look based on the patches the devs have given us including the dreaded feb patch they arent going to do ANYTHING drastic like change whole mechanics however we can work with what we have.

Chrono : Make alacrity, quickness, and slow be more potent, ofc this will not be 100% uptime, give or take even 30% uptime would be amazing. Make wells go off early or late depending on how much effect you need or want.

Mirage : Honestly with 1 dodge make IH a base trait and give us better GMs. At this point I'm not even asking for our second dodge back. Vindicator is an example of a class designed with 1 dodge vs Mirage that was designed with 2 dodge but has it taken away.

Virtuoso : One or the other, either allow back casting shatters OR significantly reduce the cast time of our shatters. Revisit old weapons to allow "blades" be functional with them.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Tseison.4659]

The idea I had for Chrono that I believe I posted during the time Beta#1 was happening for the Virtuoso, just as a hopeful change/tweak to some skills was:

Wells excluding Gravity Well should all go off at the Mesmers location, this makes it easier for allies to receive boons/enemies take damage etc… since ALOT of people tend to not stand in them which means they miss out on boons AND healing. Additionally, combat in general everyone is moving a lot anyways so why not have them share the same ‘mobility’ as scrappers gyros.

Then when it comes to the clones/shatters, they can have a range of 900/1200, semi large targeted aoe that creates hindering/beneficial effects as you manipulate time in a specific area. So instead of clones shattering at their target, the Mesmer will absorb X amount of clones into them to fuel the attack at the targeted location. It’s either that OR, just basically absorb your clones into yourself just to trigger large aoe shatter/time effects at your location that are more support/cc related.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Tseison.4659

[Salt Mode.3780]

Look for those who are "confused" with my comment when was there an actual buff towards mesmers?

And on those buffs was it anything impactful...? Or was it giving back something we needed like IP on Chrono...but in exchange for our distortion.

You honestly think ANY of these ideals will be practical based on the history of mesmers....?

Prior to the Mirage 1 dodge nerf, MANY Mirage mains already gave suggestions on how to NERF Mirage, instead they took everything that made 2 dodge too strong and then eventually took away our one of our dodge.

Get real people.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

59 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Look for those who are "confused" with my comment when was there an actual buff towards mesmers?

And on those buffs was it anything impactful...? Or was it giving back something we needed like IP on Chrono...but in exchange for our distortion.

You honestly think ANY of these ideals will be practical based on the history of mesmers....?

Prior to the Mirage 1 dodge nerf, MANY Mirage mains already gave suggestions on how to NERF Mirage, instead they took everything that made 2 dodge too strong and then eventually took away our one of our dodge.

Get real people.

Every mesmer main comment always has at least one confused and one laugh. It means you're doing something good, wear it like a medal. 

[Urphen.2857]

On 3/20/2022 at 3:27 PM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Every mesmer main comment always has at least one confused and one laugh. It means you're doing something good, wear it like a medal. 

Pls don't say that otherwise certain people starts thinking they are doing only good things 😅

Edited April 29, 2022 by Urphen.2857

[Xaylin.1860]

37 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Every mesmer main comment always has at least one confused and one laugh. It means you're doing something good, wear it like a medal. 

Maybe it's Lyssa, teasing her children 👭

[Xaylin.1860]

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Look based on the patches the devs have given us including the dreaded feb patch they arent going to do ANYTHING drastic like change whole mechanics however we can work with what we have.

Chrono : Make alacrity, quickness, and slow be more potent, ofc this will not be 100% uptime, give or take even 30% uptime would be amazing. Make wells go off early or late depending on how much effect you need or want.

Mirage : Honestly with 1 dodge make IH a base trait and give us better GMs. At this point I'm not even asking for our second dodge back. Vindicator is an example of a class designed with 1 dodge vs Mirage that was designed with 2 dodge but has it taken away.

Virtuoso : One or the other, either allow back casting shatters OR significantly reduce the cast time of our shatters. Revisit old weapons to allow "blades" be functional with them.

I really like many ideas in here but I'm with Salt Mode here. Unless ANet offcially starts bigger reworks, I'd rather not expect too much.

 

For Chrono, pretty much agree. But I want to emphasize that Alacrity and Quickness would probably have to compete/exclude each other.

 

For Mirage, aside from IH I really want Ambushes not to trigger from Dodging exclusively, though. We could have a set up where GMs would interact with Mirage Cloak (although I'd rather see it be replaced with Distortion already 🙄) whereas Master traits would be additional triggers for Ambushes. E.g. on Shatter (more "classic" playstyle) or successful Leap finishers (heavily caters Axe and Deceptions). I'm fine if one of those is on Dodge as long as we regain some Vigor or Endurance regeneration. Rolewise, 1 row could be condi, one bruisery/self sustain and one come with boon support. 

 

For Virtuoso, yeah, more blade interactions please. I also still want F3 to be ground targeted like some of the Psyonics. The missing/middle trait theme could be some debilitation (e.g. Cripple) with boon removal.

[Senqu.8054]

No doubt, there will never be an drastically change ever again. But kinda admirable that the community can produce ideas that are more satisfying then the actual game. 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Senqu.8054

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

I get that it's tempting, but you guys should really get more realistic

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

I don't think anybody in this thread was under any delusion that anet would suddenly do massive mesmer reworks based on forum input, they don't even do small number changes based on forum input.

But like I said in my first post, doing these is pretty fun, and for others I imagine it's good for venting, thinking about could-have-beens. Who knows, it might even help illustrate some common feedback points, such as how the fact Virtuoso is cloneless isn't what people are upset about.

[Bast.7253]

I think Virtuoso for me would be a lot more appealing if they'd gone with a different weapon or given an optional off-hand dagger that compliments the playstyle. 

Also, bladesongs are still clunky and awkward to use. 

But just imagine Virtuoso with a shortbow/longbow instead. Maybe the 4th ability could be something akin to one of the damaging pbaoe utilities with the utility being replaced with something that has more synergy with the build beyond a dismally short immob that serves to root them in place for your bladeswongs. 

Have the skill 5 be like, a stun or a disorient of somekind that functions similarly to pistol. 

I also think the dagger skill 1 and 2 feel extremely similar. If this were another weapon like a bow I could see this as being a rapid attack like ranger longbow 2 or somekind of channeled high damaging attack like dragonhunter longbow 2 that hits multiple targets upon collision. 

But then you're losing out on it being a viable sustained damage class so idk. It's always been missing something for me and realistically, outside of the clones being graphics over your head what is the real distinction between blades and clones outside of being able to have them outside of combat and have more of them? Oh, AND the cast time. That's different. Maybe it would feel better if the cast time wasn't there even if they had to do number control on balance to account for it? It feels unnecessary.

[Tseison.4659]

22 minutes ago, Bast.7253 said:

I think Virtuoso for me would be a lot more appealing if they'd gone with a different weapon or given an optional off-hand dagger that compliments the playstyle. 

Also, bladesongs are still clunky and awkward to use. 

But just imagine Virtuoso with a shortbow/longbow instead. Maybe the 4th ability could be something akin to one of the damaging pbaoe utilities with the utility being replaced with something that has more synergy with the build beyond a dismally short immob that serves to root them in place for your bladeswongs. 

Have the skill 5 be like, a stun or a disorient of somekind that functions similarly to pistol. 

I also think the dagger skill 1 and 2 feel extremely similar. If this were another weapon like a bow I could see this as being a rapid attack like ranger longbow 2 or somekind of channeled high damaging attack like dragonhunter longbow 2 that hits multiple targets upon collision. 

But then you're losing out on it being a viable sustained damage class so idk. It's always been missing something for me and realistically, outside of the clones being graphics over your head what is the real distinction between blades and clones outside of being able to have them outside of combat and have more of them? Oh, AND the cast time. That's different. Maybe it would feel better if the cast time wasn't there even if they had to do number control on balance to account for it? It feels unnecessary.

It’s funny cuz when they announced the Virtuoso and we got to test it out; I was under the impression the combat would be fast and there would be more charges on the Bladesongs, since flinging a whole bunch of psionic weapons reminded me of Hela from Thor Ragnarok.

I was also hoping the “psionic” utilities would be more “psionic” and less “blade attacks”. They might as well just have the “blade” traits affect the utilities too since they’re all summoning a swarm of the same psionic blades we use in our Bladesongs.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Tseison.4659

[Mell.4873]

21 minutes ago, Bast.7253 said:

But just imagine Virtuoso with a shortbow/longbow instead. Maybe the 4th ability could be something akin to one of the damaging pbaoe utilities with the utility being replaced with something that has more synergy with the build beyond a dismally short immob that serves to root them in place for your bladeswongs. 
 

The dagger plays very similar to the longbow, if anything i learned a few tricks by playing dagger Virtuoso and trying to throw daggers through a bunch of enemies. I now do the same thing with my longbow Ranger when I farm.

[mortrialus.3062]

The last thing mesmer needs is half baked "reworks" that leaves various specs unviable for potentially a years at a time until the next rework.  Chronomancer still hasn't fully recovered from the last time it got "reworked".

Literally every time they're shoehorned in "trade offs" to specs that weren't designed around them it's been a massive net negative in terms of fun and spec identity and especially viability.   It's trying to make things look neat and tidy without any regard for why they were designed the way they were, or how the spec is actually supposed to function going forward, and frequently they just don't and ultimately die.  The only builds that have managed to survive getting these shoehorn "trade offs" is Soulbeast and Daredevil, because Soulbeast was insanely powerful and became merely just "good" and thief is just forever meta and that just never changes.

The idea of changing Mirage shatters into the ambushes, or worse the Deception utility skills is laughably bad.  "Hey Condi Mirages, you lost Cry of Frustration as one of your key damage skills but now you'll always have access to SAND THROUGH GLASS!  Eh, eh!?  Talk about a bargain!"  Yeah no thanks.  In fact, kitten that.

Edited March 20, 2022 by mortrialus.3062

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

2 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

The last thing mesmer needs is half baked "reworks" that leaves various specs unviable for potentially a years at a time until the next rework.  Chronomancer still hasn't fully recovered from the last time it got "reworked".

Literally every time they're shoehorned in "trade offs" to specs that weren't designed around them it's been a massive net negative in terms of fun and spec identity and especially viability.   It's trying to make things look neat and tidy without any regard for why they were designed the way they were, or how the spec is actually supposed to function going forward, and frequently they just don't and ultimately die.  The only builds that have managed to survive getting these shoehorn "trade offs" is Soulbeast and Daredevil, because Soulbeast was insanely powerful and became merely just "good" and thief is just forever meta and that just never changes.

The idea of changing Mirage shatters into the ambushes, or worse the Deception utility skills is laughably bad.  "Hey Condi Mirages, you lost Cry of Frustration as one of your key damage skills but now you'll always have access to SAND THROUGH GLASS!  Eh, eh!?  Talk about a bargain!"  Yeah no thanks.  In fact, kitten that.

The phantasm rework... barf

[Xaylin.1860]

9 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

But just imagine Virtuoso with a shortbow/longbow instead. Maybe the 4th ability could be something akin to one of the damaging pbaoe utilities with the utility being replaced with something that has more synergy with the build beyond a dismally short immob that serves to root them in place for your bladeswongs. 

Have the skill 5 be like, a stun or a disorient of somekind that functions similarly to pistol. 

I was hoping for a LB Bard and yes, two Daggers seem more appealing. However, looking at Virtuoso, anything OH would have a huge overlap with Utilities. What you described are basically Psyonics. I see a similar issue on WB where Virtues and Utilities/OH Sword are quite similar. It leaves no room for additions unless you break away from the original concept.

 

For Virtuoso, it would just help immensly if core weapons had better synergy with blades. I actually like using Focus again and between Focus and Pistol we actually already have the things you describe.

[Senqu.8054]

On 3/20/2022 at 11:11 PM, mortrialus.3062 said:

The last thing mesmer needs is half baked "reworks" that leaves various specs unviable for potentially a years at a time until the next rework.  Chronomancer still hasn't fully recovered from the last time it got "reworked".

Literally every time they're shoehorned in "trade offs" to specs that weren't designed around them it's been a massive net negative in terms of fun and spec identity and especially viability.   It's trying to make things look neat and tidy without any regard for why they were designed the way they were, or how the spec is actually supposed to function going forward, and frequently they just don't and ultimately die.  The only builds that have managed to survive getting these shoehorn "trade offs" is Soulbeast and Daredevil, because Soulbeast was insanely powerful and became merely just "good" and thief is just forever meta and that just never changes.

The idea of changing Mirage shatters into the ambushes, or worse the Deception utility skills is laughably bad.  "Hey Condi Mirages, you lost Cry of Frustration as one of your key damage skills but now you'll always have access to SAND THROUGH GLASS!  Eh, eh!?  Talk about a bargain!"  Yeah no thanks.  In fact, kitten that.

 

No one wants half baked reworks and no one denies that chrono is still getting worse with each patch. But I think you over exaggerate a little bit regards the sand through glass thing. In these scenarios it can of cause be assumed, that the balance will be made accordingly. It’s a fiction, nothing to be 100% realistic.
 

I personally like the idea of having kinda IH ambushes on F1-F3. It would deliver a nice foundation for like a kinda „clone death“ mesmer build from the early days. And Mirage inclusively could have access to clone death traits. It could create much more diversity then just playing always the same token based shatter game on all 3 especs and would create for once a diversity in how you position and interact with clones and yourself. 
 

 There is a reason why since 10 years every single ESpec inclusive core is always played with GS S/T. There are exceptions, but well, most of them kinda disappeared after like 6 month max and you see how bad virtuoso performs on GS without direct shatter. It’s a fundamental issue with the mechanical interaction of clones / tokens and shatters. That there is 0 creatively implemented variety given like for example scourge did to necro shroud is just sad. Because demand for a different execution then the always being shatters is there.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Senqu.8054

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

4 hours ago, Senqu.8054 said:

 There is a reason why since 10 years every single ESpec inclusive core is always played with GS S/T.

What do you mean?

2012 it was Staff Sword, 2013 it was GS Sword/Focus or GS staff, 2014 it was GS Staff, 2015 it was GS Sword/Torch, HoT it was typically Staff Sword/Shield on the meta specs (condi/bunker), etc

[Xaylin.1860]

There has been some variation, but I think it is fair to say that at least the basic power Shatter combo always included GS and similar set-ups/follow ups at least for PvP and some extent roaming. But that is to be expected, considering that even the Virtuoso Shatters don't really stray too far away from the core set up.

 

Is this an issue per se? No. But there clearly is a lack of diversity when it comes to Mesmers eSpec mechanics. The only variance you might see is on Mirage because of Ambushes. But Shatters work the same on them regardless. Thinking about it, Mesmer is probably the class with the smallest changes to the core mechanic of all classes just behind Revenant which also only get's stuff slapped onto the eSpec.