Mechanist is currently destroying the game. Please consider adjusting it ASAP.

[Copyright.9082]

From what I gather from this 6 page thread is that : 

 

1. Mechanist is fine in openworld because people like to steam roll content by pressing 1, which is fine. 

2. Mechanist has no place being in any sort of competitive gamemode (PvP, WvW, raids, etc.).

 

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Classic Perception.2507

[Crackmonster.2790]

7 hours ago, Rosiep.9128 said:

In the end the problem isn't mechanist really, it's a spec in a good place.

And there is revealed the copium maximus, the crux of denial.

The reason ppl feel its a spec in a good place -  is that it's a broken specc that has everything you could dream of and is easy, safe, powerful - every ability is overloaded with huge  powers others can only dream of.

So while every denier in here is try to claim "nothing special here", or think its in a good place, it's because you now get to faceroll everything and chillax. That's all you wanted, a broken OP specc lol.

This however is not what the game is setting out to balance for, as time has proven that overpowered faceroll speccs that get everything will get nerfed just like all the rest - it's just a matter of a when. Especially AI speccs with pets and the like will provoke rage from the playerbase if the ai is just owning too much. That's why necro minions, clones, ranger pets are kept under control - because its not fun for everyone else and will provoke a lot of tears. It's simply just not fun to get owned by a pet.

Still i lmao of "spec in a good place", specc in a broken easy have everything faceroll place ye. Lulz.

The denial here is priceworthy.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Crackmonster.2790

[Gorem.8104]

EoD literally gave us ONE good E-spec class and you want it nerfed? 
All other E-specs should be buffed to this level for EoD. 

[Crackmonster.2790]

Lets have a loook at some of the skills:

Crisis zone: Aoe Stun break, condi cleanse, aegis, stability, protection, alacrity

Shift signet: One of the lowest reliable shadowstep cooldowns in game. For both you annd your pet. Oh yea and also it cleans condies and removes stuns. But wait it gives u to 30% passive movespeed and in fact also makes your pet get every boon that you do.

Heal skill: Oh yea it gives a passive heal that iss shigher than most classes cann dream of using their heal on cooldown, for both engi and pet, and then can be activated for a very large heal as well.

Pistol skills on the side doing like 35k on 12s cooldown, 20k on 8s cooldown, blinds, aoe immobilize or you can jump in mace/shield and get up to permanent uptime on protection and spam barrierss and regen on allies.

Signet trait in the actual traitline you  don't need to pick another traitline to get the maximum effort. etc.


You can get in one build: Insane tanky pet - enormous self heal, permanent protection, good uptime on boosted regen, can 25 self might, shadowstep on low cooldowns, gazillion condi cleanses, ez stun breaks, a large amout of projectile reflection and barrier, excellent damage potential on low cooldowns too ussing pistol. Can even put flamethrower if you want to sacrifice survival. A good bit of alacrity. 

This thing has everything lol the abilities are the most creeped i have seen so far LULS and ppl trying to be like "nothing to see here, move along folks" and "finally a normal good working specc" xDDDD yea bros it feels good to you coz you can just spam all the crap and faceroll it all with no brain.

[BobbyT.7192]

46 minutes ago, Classic Perception.2507 said:

2. Mechanist has no place being in any sort of competitive gamemode (PvP, WvW, raids, etc.).

The mech fine in any format. If you think about it the skill factor, it's no different then any other spec. The mech has abilities you the player need to activate, and some skills you need to make sure the mech is in the proper position to get the most of it (like some of the support skills). You can set it just to auto and forget about it, but in a "competitive" format you need to worry more than just your build rotation. Why gatekeep content based on the complexity of your build, more people getting in raids or pvp is a good thing, and shouldn't be viewed as destroying the game.

 

[Crackmonster.2790]

22 minutes ago, BobbyT.7192 said:

The mech fine in any format. If you think about it the skill factor, it's no different then any other spec. The mech has abilities you the player need to activate, and some skills you need to make sure the mech is in the proper position to get the most of it (like some of the support skills). You can set it just to auto and forget about it, but in a "competitive" format you need to worry more than just your build rotation. Why gatekeep content based on the complexity of your build, more people getting in raids or pvp is a good thing, and shouldn't be viewed as destroying the game.

 

Lmao, yea the only way these things can be justified is by reducing them to things so general you can't tell the differences and the whys.

Like all speccs you need to press something to do things, therefore are are basically all the same  and all is fine balance not needed, amirite.

[Copyright.9082]

26 minutes ago, BobbyT.7192 said:

The mech fine in any format. If you think about it the skill factor, it's no different then any other spec. The mech has abilities you the player need to activate, and some skills you need to make sure the mech is in the proper position to get the most of it (like some of the support skills). You can set it just to auto and forget about it, but in a "competitive" format you need to worry more than just your build rotation. Why gatekeep content based on the complexity of your build, more people getting in raids or pvp is a good thing, and shouldn't be viewed as destroying the game.

 

I'm glad you mentioned complexity, because I didn't 🙂

 

Even though most players can play this class with their feet (and they expressly say it's why they like it !), complexity or cheese is not the issue. There are plenty of over simple builds which are very efficient, it' s fine. 

 

The issue is the multiplication of AI.

 

You "can" activate mechanist skills but regardless or your input it will hard strike, heavy smash, twin strike, jade energy shot and/or (depending on traits) dynamo burst as soon as you or it gets attacked.

 

It doesn't matter if it does damage or if it's tanky (right now the PvP meta is to use mechanist as a tank sidenodder). It's the fact that's it's there, passively being efficient at the game. 

 

I agree with you that having simple builds is good for new players, not multiplying AI though because when that new player gets into PvP for example, and sees 3 golems on 1 node, one minion master on close and one ranger with pet on far, he is going to laugh and uninstall straight away.

 

 

 

[Xenash.1245]

53 minutes ago, Crackmonster.2790 said:

Lets have a loook at some of the skills:

Crisis zone: Aoe Stun break, condi cleanse, aegis, stability, protection, alacrity

Shift signet: One of the lowest reliable shadowstep cooldowns in game. For both you annd your pet. Oh yea and also it cleans condies and removes stuns. But wait it gives u to 30% passive movespeed and in fact also makes your pet get every boon that you do.

Heal skill: Oh yea it gives a passive heal that iss shigher than most classes cann dream of using their heal on cooldown, for both engi and pet, and then can be activated for a very large heal as well.

Pistol skills on the side doing like 35k on 12s cooldown, 20k on 8s cooldown, blinds, aoe immobilize or you can jump in mace/shield and get up to permanent uptime on protection and spam barrierss and regen on allies.

Signet trait in the actual traitline you  don't need to pick another traitline to get the maximum effort. etc.


You can get in one build: Insane tanky pet - enormous self heal, permanent protection, good uptime on boosted regen, can 25 self might, shadowstep on low cooldowns, gazillion condi cleanses, ez stun breaks, a large amout of projectile reflection and barrier, excellent damage potential on low cooldowns too ussing pistol. Can even put flamethrower if you want to sacrifice survival. A good bit of alacrity. 

This thing has everything lol the abilities are the most creeped i have seen so far LULS and ppl trying to be like "nothing to see here, move along folks" and "finally a normal good working specc" xDDDD yea bros it feels good to you coz you can just spam all the crap and faceroll it all with no brain.

Seems fair enough to criticize crisis zone, since it does seem to be a rather popular talent choice and over bloated for it's cool down. So increasing the cool down to put it into line with other similar skills would make sense, if it's indeed becoming an issue.

I don't really see what you're trying to say with your first few points about shift signet, as it does pretty much the same thing as shadowstep for the same cool down. The only really differences being the the movement speed and boon copy for engineers, and shadow return acting acting as a second shadowstep for a smart thief. That's not to say I even really disagree as I have questioned the mobility potential of the engineer with shift signet and rocket boots in PvP, but it just sounds like you're trying to make it sound a bit worse then it is.

Can you elaborate more on what your problem is with the mechanists heal? Because when it comes to competitive modes I'd question if the passive healing is all that helpful compared to something like the healing turret for burst healing. Or if we're talking about just healing skills and raw healing for PvE, personally I'd say the bladesworn combat stimulant is better.

I'm honestly a bit confused on what you're trying to say about the engineers pistol so I can't really say anything about that, but yeah it does seem like the mace is rather good with supporting people in strikes/raids.

So what do you think should be done to balance the mechanist?

Edited March 22, 2022 by Xenash.1245

[BobbyT.7192]

1 hour ago, Crackmonster.2790 said:

Like all speccs you need to press something to do things, therefore are are basically all the same  and all is fine balance not needed, amirite.

You got the idea, glad you agree. 😁

 

56 minutes ago, Classic Perception.2507 said:

I'm glad you mentioned complexity, because I didn't 🙂

 

Even though most players can play this class with their feet (and they expressly say it's why they like it !), complexity or cheese is not the issue. There are plenty of over simple builds which are very efficient, it' s fine. 

 

The issue is the multiplication of AI.

 

You "can" activate mechanist skills but regardless or your input it will hard strike, heavy smash, twin strike, jade energy shot and/or (depending on traits) dynamo burst as soon as you or it gets attacked.

 

It doesn't matter if it does damage or if it's tanky (right now the PvP meta is to use mechanist as a tank sidenodder). It's the fact that's it's there, passively being efficient at the game. 

 

I agree with you that having simple builds is good for new players, not multiplying AI though because when that new player gets into PvP for example, and sees 3 golems on 1 node, one minion master on close and one ranger with pet on far, he is going to laugh and uninstall straight away.

 

 

 

I think PvP has a lot more issues then just Timmy and his pets. (For example; I  know a lot of people who don't touch pvp because they do like 10% damage compared to pve, but that's a topic for another time).  I like the idea of asking for counters than nerfs anyways, so give me a way to nuke the minions and i be happy.

 

[RabbitUp.8294]

On 3/20/2022 at 11:32 PM, Shiyo.3578 said:

The mech can EASILY tank strike bosses. It should not be able to generate enmity at all.

The mech makes all open world content a snoozefest and extremely safe. Actually safer than any torment runes/self sustain build you nerfed going into EoD.

Support mechanist is just as good as Firebrand in groups(provides alac instead of quickness though).

DPS mechanist is doing extremely high DPS.

The skill floor on this class is extremely low, probably the lowest in the entire game.

You can do ~26k DPS while literally AFK only auto-attacking.

I haven't read every page yet, but I want to address OP's points.

Quote

The mech makes all open world content a snoozefest and extremely safe. Actually safer than any torment runes/self sustain build you nerfed going into EoD.

Pets have always done that. Minionmancer necro for comparison.

Quote

Support mechanist is just as good as Firebrand in groups(provides alac instead of quickness though).

Why is having another good support a bad thing? If anything, the fact that druid and FB have been so dominant in the meta is what's bad for the health of the game. Also, mechanist doesn't do something scrapper didn't already do. It swaps superspeed for more barrier and quickness for alacrity.

Quote

DPS mechanist is doing extremely high DPS.

It's a dps build, not an alacrity build, so I don't see what's the issue here. It's one of the highest, but not the highest. It also uses 3 kits to achieve that, so I don't think you can complain about low skill floor in this case.

Quote

The skill floor on this class is extremely low, probably the lowest in the entire game.

You can do ~26k DPS while literally AFK only auto-attacking.

[XVII] Dhuum Challenge | ONLY Auto Attacks and Dodge - YouTube

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by RabbitUp.8294

[Castillan.4259]

Snowcrows posted a bunch of updated builds with DPS rotation videos just today.

 

https://snowcrows.com/builds?profession=Engineer

 

Check out the support builds there for Mechanist.  ~25K DPS as a team support.  That's good deal less than a number of other support builds.  In pure DPS only mode, backed up by a team, yeah, it'll hit ~41K, but browse through Snowcrows and there's at least 10 other builds of various classes provided doing similar damage.

So basically we have a class that does about the same DPS as the top tier of anything else, supports a little worse than other established support specs while doing less damage, and it seems to me that people are basically whining because it's a pet class, and the pet takes pressure off the player in open world, just like every other pet class does, or a any class with a rune of golemancer.  Truly, I do not understand what the fuss is about.

There's finally a class that vies for consideration outside of the holy trinity of Guardian/Rev/Necro for raids, and suddenly people start whining about it.  The arguments here against the Mechanist are simply not backed up by evidence.  It's all just emotionally charged hyperbole.

[Luthan.5236]

I like that we actually got a tanky spec that feels to play a bit more comfortably than the other ones. Don't need to switch to ranger for this then.

So I guess the only complaint is that the mech does too much auto attack damage while still being tanky (taking the aggro and having high hitpoints)? Because the other stuff ... well ranger also has a pet. And not only since EoD but since the beginning of the game. While their pets have less hitpoints (I think - not really played it a lot) they also have lower CD when killed.

For the PvP there already seem to be adjustments that they are trying to make (First ones with one of the recent patches.) So no big deal here. Others can still enjoy the game - should not try to ruin it for us engineers by crying for PvE nerfs lol.

They should buff virtuoso instead. Just "the others got better elite specs then my main" is not a good reason to nerf the other ones that are better. Recent patch that only made major chagnes to PvP also somewhat tells us that ArenaNet see the main focus at PvP. Otherwise they would also have made emergency hotfixes to tune down the performance in PvE.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Crackmonster.2790]

4 hours ago, Xenash.1245 said:

Can you elaborate more on what your problem is with the mechanists heal? Because when it comes to competitive modes I'd question if the passive healing is all that helpful compared to something like the healing turret for burst healing. Or if we're talking about just healing skills and raw healing for PvE, personally I'd say the bladesworn combat stimulant is better.

I'm honestly a bit confused on what you're trying to say about the engineers pistol so I can't really say anything about that, but yeah it does seem like the mace is rather good with supporting people in strikes/raids.

So what do you think should be done to balance the mechanist?

Honestly, take thing away from the mech, it has too much. Reduce amount of condis cleansed, increase cooldowns on signets. Possible nerf amount of barrier, the passive healing on heal skill can be reduced to once every third second and it will still be a heal that is better than other classes heal. There is just too much stuff it can get, to somehow reduce how much you can get at the same time will be good.

Speaking of that heal you ask about - i do a lot of theorycrafting on all classes trying to make the most op easy ssafe facerolling builds possible - and its easily evident that the skills on mech are creeped hard, that's exactly what i mean by the heal skill also the values are insane considering you can get easily the passive + the on cooldown use in a build made to weather  content. I have a vendettta againsst heal imbalances in general among classes, some classes got amazing self heal skills and other classes like mesmer just get shafted for no reason and get like nothing. For the mech heal there, you can also say since it heals both you and mech it would be fair that it heals slightly less than for others builds that only heal self and have to tank everything, since it can alleviate more damage pressure healing two, but instead they went to supermode and made it nuts. So they defy logic. Also its pretty much everything that is amazing, its not like for most classes where they have a few really good thing, the mech got everything top tier.

That is what i mean by pistol too, like all good faceroll builds it must check the boxes of having all the safety faceroll tools, as well as be able to apply heavy pressure with a few very low cooldown abilities. A lot of ppl saying the engi cant do kitten its all mech, but those abilties are idd quite good.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Crackmonster.2790

[Tiviana.2650]

On 3/20/2022 at 9:45 PM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Lots of people and all classes can solo bounties.  Look closer.  His bladesworn kill on Triq Griz Grolak was on target to take 40% longer than it did on mechanist.  He also takes on more difficult challenges with the mechanist than he does on the bladesworn.  You can also see that the mech easily maintains threat on bosses like Balthazar and the Mushroom queen while he's able to stand back and tee off.

People asked for video of open world solo play.  I provided it.  There's no need to move the goalposts.  We can compare his performance on mechanist to his performance on other classes and learn something about how they perform relative to one another. 

Of course, we don't want to do that if it might reveal that mechanist is overtuned, right?  I mean, they nerfed catalyst off of a kitten golem benchmark.  What might they do next?

I dont know what you are watching, this is his bladesworn video updated for march 2022 pay attention to what he says. You just dont get it the best players play at a level we dont. Even if we copy everything they do most still wont hit those numbers.

 

[Swagger.1459]

Wait, the Mech is useful??? This is unacceptable, nerf it IMMEDIATELY!!! And Engineer shouldn’t have a weapon when specced to Mechanist either because we need profession balance!!! 

[AliamRationem.5172]

49 minutes ago, Tiviana.2650 said:

I dont know what you are watching, this is his bladesworn video updated for march 2022 pay attention to what he says. You just dont get it the best players play at a level we dont. Even if we copy everything they do most still wont hit those numbers.

 

I get it. Do you? Comparing Hizen to Hizen is not unreasonable. 

[Shiyo.3578]

10 hours ago, Classic Perception.2507 said:

From what I gather from this 6 page thread is that : 

2. Mechanist has no place being in any sort of competitive gamemode (PvP, WvW, raids, etc.).

 

 

You got that after seeing vids and benchmarks saying the complete opposite in the OP?

[Shiyo.3578]

7 hours ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

Pets have always done that. Minionmancer necro for comparison.

My flesh golem lost 50% of it's HP soloing a random normal mob in sirens landing(and took forever to do it). I swap to mech and my mech kills it in < 5 seconds with 100% HP left. Not true at all.

[Swagger.1459]

56 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

My flesh golem lost 50% of it's HP soloing a random normal mob in sirens landing(and took forever to do it). I swap to mech and my mech kills it in < 5 seconds with 100% HP left. Not true at all.

The mech is supposed to be strong. Not supposed to be like all the other junky pets. You must not have know that or are intentionally ignoring that fact. 
 

It’s easy to see through your complaints. Enough with the hyperbole. 

[Shiyo.3578]

1 minute ago, Swagger.1459 said:

The mech is supposed to be strong.

Not good to have in an action game.

[Castillan.4259]

1 hour ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

My flesh golem lost 50% of it's HP soloing a random normal mob in sirens landing(and took forever to do it). I swap to mech and my mech kills it in < 5 seconds with 100% HP left. Not true at all.

A Minion Master is not just the singular flesh golem.  The equivalent of the Mech would be to have everything but the flesh-wurm thing summoned and then compare how long it takes for your 4 dps summons to kill the mob while the flesh golem tanks it, but even then, a pet-less necro does more damage than a pet-less mechanist, so it's still a bit of an apples to oranges comparison.

I'm actually pretty sure that you know this, and you're just trolling at this point because if you really believe what you said is a fair comparison, then everyone can discount every single thing you've said in this thread as being the rantings of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Castillan.4259
Added petless comparison statement

[Dr Meta.3158]

The reason the mechanist skills are so overloaded is because they are essentially a ranger with two specialization trait lines. You can imagine taking traits out of the trait line and putting them directly into the skills. The options in the Mechanist trait line are akin to picking different pets to use. 

[Blackmon.1903]

I don't understand the idea of wanting things to be nerfed on a mostly cooperative game. 

In PVP? yes, I completely understand that.  That makes sense, but pve where everyone gets rewarded the same regardless of how you do? It's like asking the developer to make the game harder just so that you can feel kitten for completing it with more effort and time needed than previous because a certain class or specialization made it easier. 

What 99% of people in the game want is to be able to finish endgame content in the least amount of time possible.  It's always a good reset day whenever I get into a fractal party that finishes all T4 dailies and recommendeds in less than 1 hour. 
Don't tell me that this is not true as people keep searching for the best possible build for each class all the time and even normal, casual players always try to go for the best build for their class as I really really doubt they want to play a class build that's really weak and gets easily killed.

As for the low skill ceiling.  This idea is perfect for players who are normally bad or mediocre.  Would anyone seriously say that people love to party with people who keep dying every minute and giving low performance on endgame content? Low skill ceiling means that even bad people are ok to party with because this type of build or class lets them be decent at least and help contribute and die less on a mostly cooperative game instead of being carried most of the time or worse, kicked from the party because they are bad at it.

[Crackmonster.2790]

It's very simple. Those who want to use a negative word would call it envy, but its really all about justice. It's about people wanting their play style to be just as worthy as others and dont want to be overshadowed by some other OP stuff. It's telling a lie if you think that normal functionining humans don't care about others choices - it's a very important thing to feel a purpose to your char that its relevant and especially all the nerfs to peoples favorite chars over time it pisses them off to see other speccss get loading with ezmode OP and hearing people try to defend that thehy should keep it.

It's all about justice, respecting everyones right to be on level. That's also why annoying playstyles that rage players get nerfed the most, such as pet and ai styles, because it feels really bad both to play against and feels unfair if its just as good or better than  a hardworking specc.

[Dr Meta.3158]

10 minutes ago, Blackmon.1903 said:

I don't understand the idea of wanting things to be nerfed on a mostly cooperative game. 

In PVP? yes, I completely understand that.  That makes sense, but pve where everyone gets rewarded the same regardless of how you do? It's like asking the developer to make the game harder just so that you can feel kitten for completing it with more effort and time needed than previous because a certain class or specialization made it easier. 

What 99% of people in the game want is to be able to finish endgame content in the least amount of time possible.  It's always a good reset day whenever I get into a fractal party that finishes all T4 dailies and recommendeds in less than 1 hour. 
Don't tell me that this is not true as people keep searching for the best possible build for each class all the time and even normal, casual players always try to go for the best build for their class as I really really doubt they want to play a class build that's really weak and gets easily killed.

As for the low skill ceiling.  This idea is perfect for players who are normally bad or mediocre.  Would anyone seriously say that people love to party with people who keep dying every minute and giving low performance on endgame content? Low skill ceiling means that even bad people are ok to party with because this type of build or class lets them be decent at least and help contribute and die less on a mostly cooperative game instead of being carried most of the time or worse, kicked from the party because they are bad at it.

Reasonable and intelligent people complain to not have their class invalidated by another... which mechanist doesn't. Everyone does it because some else they listened to complained about it and they want to feel included without actually giving it any thought.