Engineer is the most well balanced class at the moment for PVE

[Ciel.8705]

With the introduction of Mechanist, Engineer is finally the most well balanced class for PVE in GW2 history in my opinion.

We finally have a class that can spec into different roles like; power/condition damager, quickness/alacrity support, and healer.
I applaud ANET's effort and thoughts that have put into this class and I truly wishes that other classes can receive similar treatment.

Is Engineer really perfectly balanced? No, as there are still issues for PVP & WVW and maybe some part of PVE that could be better improved on. But at where it is now for PVE it is a great start and it is disheartening to see people cheerleading for nerf Mechanist instead of calling for better balancing of their/other classes to achieve what Engineer as a whole have achieved.
 

[LucianDK.8615]

People is sadly getting coniptions from the perception that the mech is far too strong, and playing the espec instead of the player.

[Valisha.8650]

Guardian mains being salty I guess

[Jerus.4350]

14 hours ago, Ciel.8705 said:

With the introduction of Mechanist, Engineer is finally the most well balanced class for PVE in GW2 history in my opinion.

We finally have a class that can spec into different roles like; power/condition damager, quickness/alacrity support, and healer.
I applaud ANET's effort and thoughts that have put into this class and I truly wishes that other classes can receive similar treatment.

Is Engineer really perfectly balanced? No, as there are still issues for PVP & WVW and maybe some part of PVE that could be better improved on. But at where it is now for PVE it is a great start and it is disheartening to see people cheerleading for nerf Mechanist instead of calling for better balancing of their/other classes to achieve what Engineer as a whole have achieved.
 

Mechanist does need some nerfing though, we just need a scalpel not the axe.  We don't want even more Powercreep in this game, it was bad enough with HoT and even worse with PoF, and yeah, lets not do more of that, please. 

Mechanist isn't the only thing needing a nerf though, from EoD I'd say at least Harbinger and Virtuoso are both there as well, and maybe Guardian if what I've heard is correct.   A lot of PoF and HoT specs could use a bit of shaving as well.  I miss a few core builds, and I wish they were at least not terribly uncompetative, and I also don't like that so much old content just falls over.

[Hotride.2187]

Didn't I see a video about auto attacking for 20k+ dps? I guess if that is where the game is supposed to be heading... its balanced.

[Jerus.4350]

2 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Didn't I see a video about auto attacking for 20k+ dps? I guess if that is where the game is supposed to be heading... its balanced.

And there is one of a Mirage doing 28k...

20k isn't really that impressive on a training room golem while you're buffed to that level.  It's really more a demonstration of what those buffs, gear, and debuffs do for DPS.  Remember top dps rotations are doing closer to 40k.

[LucianDK.8615]

I am holding my breath for tuesday..

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Didn't I see a video about auto attacking for 20k+ dps? I guess if that is where the game is supposed to be heading... its balanced.

So does untamed with greatsword more or less. 25K+ on greatsword reaper in shroud , ~18K without shroud. 22 to 25K or so is normal on photon forge. 22 to 23K or so is possible with daredevil on staff.
You can get 28K autoing with 3 axe clones on mirage.
20K on any class with a 40K benchmark is perfectly acceptable. If it were more than 25K it might be alarming.

The thing PVE players complaining about mechanist being "OP" forget: you can achieve higher autoattack results with mirage (condi) , daredevil, or soulbeast (in the case of power builds) and all mechanists use a kit on the meta variants. If it's barrier we're talking about any virtue firebrand can share virtue of resolve regen , scrapper has 5% strike damage to barrier, and if catalyst gets fixed up a bit you can camp water on hammer more or less and pump out soothing mist.

If for example someone camps pistols it will have a huge ramp compared to burning or torment as unlike rangers engineer only has a duration mod for bleeding and burning and no damage mod.

If the patches by Arenanet are any indication, "elite" players scoff at auto-attack DPS being an indicator of whether something will be played. (See nerf to scepter auto on guardian or buff to scepter fire auto on tempest.) However, some of the most popular builds for every class are high auto-attacks such as power staff daredevil, power soulbeast greatsword, reaper greatsword, power DH with greatsword, axe warrior, vindicator greatsword (openworld),  and now after condition changes condi specter scepter.

The idea that the mech itself is insanely tanky on DPS builds is wrong as even in PVE you're looking at 46K or so health baseline which is inline with a ranger pet on a full glass soulbeast in berserker gear, except rangers aren't losing an entire traitline if their pet dies especially due to having two of them. If someone is playing heal mech with toughness, why should the mech not be as tanky as a bear pet with 55K health since it loses more or less all damage by traiting for alacrity? Its toughness and vitality bonuses are not free, they are converted from your stats. Even with full berserker gear the mech does below 2K DPS if you don't have boons so it isn't gamebreaking by any stretch the imagination. I think it's more of a concern of how shift signet copies the might you gain passively on High-Impact Drivers, so the mech double dips on might, doubling the might it normally can acquire.

I suspect many of the complaints about the mech come from ranger players actually since the untamed's pet does less DPS than the pet on core ranger (to the tune of half based on my testing , with core ranger pets around 1K DPS at best without boons) as all autocasts are disabled. The answer to the untamed PVE dilemma is not nerfs to mechanist , it's buffs to untamed which underperforms even scrapper benchmarks. If the mech is nerfed in any fashion I would use core ranger as a baseline comparison point : it would only make sense that the mech had the same defensive value as two pets if the damage is reduced given Overclock Signet is the only recovery if it dies and that is something that consumes an elite slot.

[LucianDK.8615]

The best to hope for might be damage moved to the mechanist if the mech is nerfed. Making it less painful when its gone.

[Kozumi.5816]

7 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

So does untamed with greatsword more or less. 25K+ on greatsword reaper in shroud , ~18K without shroud. 22 to 25K or so is normal on photon forge. 22 to 23K or so is possible with daredevil on staff.
You can get 28K autoing with 3 axe clones on mirage.
20K on any class with a 40K benchmark is perfectly acceptable. If it were more than 25K it might be alarming.

The thing PVE players complaining about mechanist being "OP" forget: you can achieve higher autoattack results with mirage (condi) , daredevil, or soulbeast (in the case of power builds) and all mechanists use a kit on the meta variants. If it's barrier we're talking about any virtue firebrand can share virtue of resolve regen , scrapper has 5% strike damage to barrier, and if catalyst gets fixed up a bit you can camp water on hammer more or less and pump out soothing mist.

None of those have a personal tank.

[Cherubino XV.2384]

7 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

None of those have a personal tank.

I don't need a pet tank when playing those specs, because they do have more block, evade, blind and sustain than the Mechanist without the Jade bot...

[RabbitUp.8294]

7 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

None of those have a personal tank.

Mirage is perma evading, and clones do indeed draw aggro. You can find plenty of videos of mirages soloing legendary bounties and the bosses often ignore the mesmer to attack the clones. Especially if the mirage is using staff, since aggro is proximity based.

Also, the autoattack video was misleading. It was using every condition on the golem, which is not at all realistic and it was using bomb autos, putting the engi at melee range, negating the mech as an aggro magnet.

[Infusion.7149]

9 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

None of those have a personal tank.

Unatmed has 2 pets (each one can have 40K+ health without any investment since it is not based off the player) and a damage reduction when you are in unleash pet state so if you're talking about openworld that is incorrect. Reaper has a damage reduction , damage to health, and 2 health bars. The other day I was testing out mechanist goofing off in a T1 rec and it was annihilated by the whirlpool tornados in Sunqua Peak fractal, forcing me to use Overclock Signet. The mech also died in prior patches to the Vale Guardian green mechanic which was later changed. Scrapper is actually far more passively tanky than mechanist if both are melee, provided you do over 10K DPS (from barrier engine is around 260ish a second even if you are heal mech and below 150 a second otherwise, rectifier signet isn't run on heal mech and on DPS mech it heals 262 a second).

[Spie.5024]

20 hours ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

I am holding my breath for tuesday..

I hope they see it’s actually fine and not overpowered. 
engi is in such a good spot for pve! 
it’s a fantastic time to play engi in pve

[The Boz.2038]

On 3/25/2022 at 10:38 PM, Jerus.4350 said:

Mechanist does need some nerfing though, we just need a scalpel not the axe.  We don't want even more Powercreep in this game, it was bad enough with HoT and even worse with PoF, and yeah, lets not do more of that, please. 

What's the powercreep, tho? What does the mechanist do that others can't, in an arena where it is relevant?

No, being "kinda comfy in open world" isn't powercreep. Otherwise anything with a modicum of condition damage while wearing trailblazer gear is """"powercreep"""".

[Aetatis.5418]

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

What's the powercreep, tho? What does the mechanist do that others can't, in an arena where it is relevant?

No, being "kinda comfy in open world" isn't powercreep. Otherwise anything with a modicum of condition damage while wearing trailblazer gear is """"powercreep"""".

A support mechanist does:

Perma - 25 might, fury, protection, vigor, regeneration, alacrity. For your group(!)

+ Barrier, extra projectile hate, long lasting stability and 20k+ dps (more with ritualist or cele equip, although celestial is not wanted in some raids, due to toughness aggro mechanics) If you're not on heal duty. Edit: and CC.

All of that combined (always accessible) without giving up much, If anything.

That is a lot of role compression.

 

A condition alac mechanist (with less of the support kit) does over 30k dps

 

A condi mechanist does:

Over 40k dps

 

Every Mechanist has signets with a utility density, that is extraordinary and therefore also very useful in (smallscale) PvP scenarios (blink signet, heal signet), aside from PvE.

 

Controlling the mech can be sooomewhat annoying.

 

I dont care, that mechanist is on the easier side, buuut it feels a little overloaded with utility and damage. Thats why people shout "powercreep"

 

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Aetatis.5418

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Aetatis.5418 said:

A support mechanist does:

Perma - 25 might, fury, protection, vigor, regeneration, alacrity. For your group(!)

  Fury and vigor are in the 60-80% range. And yes, the baseline for a group support is to support your group(!). 

2 minutes ago, Aetatis.5418 said:

+ Barrier, extra projectile hate, long lasting stability and 20k+ dps (more with ritualist or cele equip, although celestial is not wanted in some raids, due to toughness aggro mechanics) If you're not on heal duty.

A condition alac mechanist (with less of the support kit) does over 30k dps

A condi mechanist does: Over 40k dps

The literal hardest rotation in the game, condi alac mech, is ~28k, not "over 30k dps". 
Condi mechanist does none of those things other than The Deeps, and 40k of The Deeps is accepted as a goal these days for a selfish DPS spec. Nothing here is above and beyond what other supports do.

2 minutes ago, Aetatis.5418 said:

That is a lot of role compression.

For it to be powercreep, it'd have to be more than what a current support option offers.
Which it is not. But it nearly is, and it makes all the firebrand mains feel a fire under their underhinds!  

2 minutes ago, Aetatis.5418 said:

Every Mechanist has signets with a utility density, that is extraordinary and therefore also very useful in (smallscale) PvP scenarios (blink signet, heal signet), aside from PvE.

Controlling the mech can be sooomewhat annoying.

I dont care, that mechanist is on the easier side, buuut it feels a little overloaded with utility. Thats why people shout "powercreep"

The signets are loaded because the engie has no weapon swap, and the mechanist has no tool belt.

[Aetatis.5418]

40 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

  Fury and vigor are in the 60-80% range. And yes, the baseline for a group support is to support your group(!). 

vigor depends really. with med kit 5 and mace 2 easily 100%. there is a reason anet took away vigor from barrier burst.
fury you're right - the mech inherits only 50% of your stats, so the fury given is not 6s per pulse as stated in the trait (at 100% boon duration. obviously less with less boon duration). didnt think about it.
 

40 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

The literal hardest rotation in the game, condi alac mech, is ~28k, not "over 30k dps". 

i stand corrected

 

 

58 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Condi mechanist does none of those things other than The Deeps, and 40k of The Deeps is accepted as a goal these days for a selfish DPS spec. Nothing here is above and beyond what other supports do.

For it to be powercreep, it'd have to be more than what a current support option offers.
Which it is not. But it nearly is, and it makes all the firebrand mains feel a fire under their underhinds!  

never said dps condi mechanist does anything else than 40k dps.

40k dps as a goal - yeah maybe. what makes it powerful is the ease(!) at which you can come very close to those 40k dps and the playability in real situations. not just the golem.
that is part of  "the power creep" - by that i mean boons and damage are creeping in slowly and trivializing some of the (older) content.
thats not only a mechanist thing, but mechanist is part of it.
now, from a "side by side comparison of professions" point of view thats however a good thing - so noone feels being left out for not doing enough damage... theoretically. and i support the idea of "bring the player, not the profession". i was just trying to write down how and why mechanist is being perceived as powerful.

on the support side - i do get what you mean (or what i am reading into it). its firebrand here, firebrand there, firebrand everywhere.
i'd love to have less firebrand and more other professions yes, but not necessarily by closing in on support capabilities to firebrand level ( or chrono a couple y ago )

 

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

The signets are loaded because the engie has no weapon swap, and the mechanist has no tool belt.

i very well know that mechanist loses tool belt skills and has no wepaon swap - the shift signet in particular is still being perceived as "loaded".

anyway, there are balance patches coming that will shift things around a little again maybe. and hopefully not a sledgehammer and more subtle.

 

[The Boz.2038]

16 hours ago, Aetatis.5418 said:

vigor depends really. with med kit 5 and mace 2...

...are we still talking about *condi alac mech*? The build that uses neither medkit or a mace?

Sounds like a "conflate all builds into one" issue here, really.

[Aetatis.5418]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

...are we still talking about *condi alac mech*? The build that uses neither medkit or a mace?

Sounds like a "conflate all builds into one" issue here, really.

nope. i mentioned heal/full support, condi alac and dps. the perma boons i was talking about were obviously support

[The Boz.2038]

Oh, in that case, it's even less of an outlier. 

[Dadnir.5038]

On 3/25/2022 at 3:03 PM, LucianDK.8615 said:

coniptions

That was my first time encountering this word, thank you for improving my vocabulary.

I like the definition that I found: "To get wicked mad pissed like a crazy guy on steroids who just stubbed his toe".

[Pokedranzer.4856]

21 hours ago, Aetatis.5418 said:

40k dps as a goal - yeah maybe. what makes it powerful is the ease(!) at which you can come very close to those 40k dps and the playability in real situations. not just the golem.



 

You're looking at the Jade Dynamo build which is both hard to play and requires your target to stand in fire and poison fields to get that dps.
The 'easy' Condi Mechanist build J-Drive does reasonable dps for what it is. It does about the same dps as sword holo at 38k dps.

[Spie.5024]

Out of curiosity is it possible to do Condi quickness build on engineer? Like a sort of ritualist with nade kit and gyros build perhaps? 
 

Secondly how are the condi alac / condi power builds?  

[Kuma.1503]

10 hours ago, Spie.5024 said:

Out of curiosity is it possible to do Condi quickness build on engineer? Like a sort of ritualist with nade kit and gyros build perhaps? 
 

Secondly how are the condi alac / condi power builds?  

I've done a Cele scrapper build in PvE. I used Pistol/Pistol + Nades with Blast and Shredder Gyro. I just swapped Fire Arms traits to condi traits and ran Shrapnel over big boomer.

It worked pretty well. I could go med kit to heal or drop Mortar 5 on the group.

Poison shell for damage. Flash shell to blind mobs.

Dps wasn't top tier, but was okay.

I still play it sometimes, but I mostly do power Scrap now since its better.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Kuma.1503