Every Problem with Tempest in Wvw.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

• Overloads. 

2 of the 4 are not useful for a support role. Fire and Air. In addition of having the downside of being melee. 

Earth has a good effect but sadly is also melee range only. 

Water is the only one of the 4 that can be used in both range and melee. 

A problem  that Firebrand has not to deal with, with its tomes. 

• Weapons

Tempest has Staff as it's only ranged option and we know how bad this weapon is. 

Daggers and warhorn are melee. And as we all know, Melee only = bad in Wvw. 

Again, a problem Firebrand doesn't have. 

• Traits. 

Here we have multiple problems. 

Fire is only used for the Condi clear on aura and it doesn't add anything other then maybe an additional Fire Aura. Why this does not matter later. 

We are forced to run Aura Share in Water to even get the function Tempest should have in the first place. 

Which means both of the other GM traits which are technically a nice choice are pointless. 

Water also has Soothing Mist. A unique healing effect that makes up a big part of Tempest effectiveness as a healer. To bad we get to the next problem. 

• Gameplay. 

To reach its full effectiveness, Tempest needs to switch attunements. 

Sadly 2/4 attunements are pointless, 1 is kinda OK and 1 serves the main purpose in healing. 

Switching off water also has even more negative side effects. We loose a healing modifier but also Soothing mist in addition to loosing all support skills on the weapon. 

Again, Firebrand has not to deal with this. 

• Auras

Auras are simply bad effects. 

Not only is what they do not strong enough but the fact that their effects trigger on getting hit is a major problem. 

One of the goals in combat is not getting hit. 

The better you are, the more you avoid attacks. 

Which means, the better you are, the lower the Value of auras. 

• Runes

Minor point but the best run for Tempest is Trooper. Sadly it gives Vita instead of Heal power.

Which lowers Tempest heal output drastically. 

• Boons

Stability? Need I say more? 

• Conclusion

Tempest is mostly a pure melee spec with bad weapons, bad trait(line) choices, bad gameplay for the role, bad weapon skills, a bad "unique" effect in auras and a plethora of more problems. 

 

That's why "just play Firebrand" is so common. 

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by DanAlcedo.3281

[lotus.5672]

Stopped reading at the first line. Shocking aura is the best aura.

[Jarwan.8263]

you skipped out scepter as a ranged weapon

[Shroud.2307]

Tempest is a very good support, and it does its own thing while still being valuable. 

I see people say Tempest is a bad support a lot, but I feel the complete opposite and often see it making a huge impact, especially scales of 15v15's or less. It may not do some of the things Scrapper or Firebrand does, but that doesn't make it bad.

Try supporting with Druid or Ventari and tell me that what you're doing for your group is something the other supports aren't doing.

[God.2708]

Tempest is near perfect. Literally the only thing keeping it away is the

1. Medkit 1 gives scrappers to much green number generation.

2. There is no place to get superspeed and stealth except from scrapper and power scrapper isn't competitive.

3. Design quirk of cleanses being attached to auras and auras prioritizing party over people who need cleansing.

---

Tempest gets used successfully as a support all the time. It's disuse rests entirely on a game mechanic problem and a puzzle piece problem. Nothing about it needs buffing unless you are interested in making a boon/heal version better via some staff and arcane line changes.

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

Firebrand tomes aren't melee, that's a new one lol.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Brandon Uzumaki.1524

[Jski.6180]

Tempest is very much lacking in support in the wvw environment when it comes to compared to FB and scraper. The lack of a strong boon what truly holding the class back.

Most of tempest support in melee and near melee ranged 240 to 600 its also an non targeted effect so you cant foces it on a player whom needs a heal / support but you must relay on the ai support system of the game. Its a real issues when you cant support ppl right infrount of you but cone effects from FB and scraper you can "chose" your support targets.

As for auras they are often too hidden in there effect to get a realty good ideal what they are doing in a fight. The moment the aura becomes some one else as they work in this game for support you lose all ideals and effects. So even if your burning 50 ppl (for 1 tick) or reflecting vs 50 rangers you will have no ideal of just how much dmg your perfevting and or dealing to the other side. Unlike both FB and scraper whom have effects that both burn and reflect and keeps them very much in the loop and also triggers other passive effects something that ele as a class is know for (lighting rod, blinding ash).

The overloads them self are to long to cast and open you up to too much free dmg as you can no longer dodges during the effect if you want the full effect of the overload. There is a good argument that catalyses combo auras are better as aura support then tempest auras. The only thing missing being the heal on apply and realy on apply for auras is the wrong way to balance there effects over all.

A lot of this has to do with the core ele class not being that great at support vs say eng's kits and gyros on its elite spec and gurds virtues shouts consecration as well as mantas on there elite spec. There just too much missing from the core class ele utility and f1-4 to fill in an support roll like other classes and it cause a lot of harm to the tempest class support over all.

Sure you can be tankly but that all your going to do is just be tankly. The moment you try to support you lose out on effects for your self and often your looked as if your an lesser class leaving you out in the cold for needed support boons of stab alacrity and quickness in wvw.

Tempest sadly cant solo support scraper and FB can. That is the fundamental truth of the game and the balancing of the tempest class.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Jski.6180

[Xenesis.6389]

Man I kinda missed my support tempest, haven't played it in a couple years, was thinking of rebuilding it the other night... but then... comparing it to scrapper, lmao, yeah, nope.

[Jski.6180]

5 hours ago, God.2708 said:

Tempest is near perfect. Literally the only thing keeping it away is the

1. Medkit 1 gives scrappers to much green number generation.

2. There is no place to get superspeed and stealth except from scrapper and power scrapper isn't competitive.

3. Design quirk of cleanses being attached to auras and auras prioritizing party over people who need cleansing.

---

Tempest gets used successfully as a support all the time. It's disuse rests entirely on a game mechanic problem and a puzzle piece problem. Nothing about it needs buffing unless you are interested in making a boon/heal version better via some staff and arcane line changes.

Not the best at making these post work the way i want.

You cant make that argument that tempest is ok its just that every thing else is op as every thing else being op is nothing new we are talking about years of balancing and nerfs and nothing realy changed the other classes being op. Tempest lacks strong boons and that alone makes it not perfect and in-fact very flawed.

[Zikory.6871]

Every Problem with Tempest is Scrapper. Last time I played it, Tempest can out cleanse and heal Scrappers so its not that its bad at its role. Scrapper just brings 5+ sources of Super speed (to tempest 1). Scrapper has stealth gyro. Scrapper provides high quickness uptime. Easier access to group stab. Converts some conditions to boons. 

Scrapper just brings such a strong kit that it doesn't really matter if tempest is good or not. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Zikory.6871

[God.2708]

35 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Not the best at making these post work the way i want.

You cant make that argument that tempest is ok its just that every thing else is op as every thing else being op is nothing new we are talking about years of balancing and nerfs and nothing realy changed the other classes being op. Tempest lacks strong boons and that alone makes it not perfect and in-fact very flawed.

Tempest outboons scrapper ever since the PoP nerf.

You could argue that the fact scrapper gives quickness is more valuable, but saying it gives more boons is nonsense. Scrapper barely generates any boons except regeneration (PoP aside).

Tempest is in a good spot. Scrapper should be brought down to its level, and druid and whatever other heal/cleanse oriented supports should be brought up to its level.

Edited March 25, 2022 by God.2708

[Astaroth.8530]

I know a support tempest who's been playing some variation of the build for three years (full minstrels, celestial, plague doctors), and just slays digital **kittens**. This bad **kitten** can keep up the cleanses with the best scrappers, drops utility and CCs where its needed most, and often competes for top three in bag count at the end of the night. Tempest for her is fun and scrapper is awkward. There's a build in there to accommodate player styles and their profession interests, whilst being successful.

Most of the arguments here that are for or against scrappers and tempests are pretty much on point. In a perfect environment here the player is playing perfectly, I'll agree that the scrapper beats tempest every time. But I'll take a great tempest over a mediocre scrapper any day. Good luck guys and happy hunting out there.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Astaroth.8530
missing words

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, Astaroth.8530 said:

support tempest

often competes for top three in bag count at the end of the night

That honestly just really sounds like you have some real terribad dps classes in your group, but props to that tempest if true. 🤭

[Rowena.9375]

1 hour ago, Astaroth.8530 said:

I know a support tempest who's been playing some variation of the build for three years (full minstrels, celestial, plague doctors), and just slays digital **kittens**. This bad **kitten** can keep up the cleanses with the best scrappers, drops utility and CCs where its needed most, and often competes for top three in bag count at the end of the night. Tempest for her is fun and scrapper is awkward. There's a build in there to accommodate player styles and their profession interests, whilst being successful.

Most of the arguments here that are for or against scrappers and tempests are pretty much on point. In a perfect environment here the player is playing perfectly, I'll agree that the scrapper beats tempest every time. But I'll take a great tempest over a mediocre scrapper any day. Good luck guys and happy hunting out there.

Thank you, Asta, for saying exactly how I feel.  Someone said the "cone" heals from FB and MKS work better.  Well, better hang at the back of the group then.  I love my tempest because I can put 80% of my staff skills wherever the hell I want.  When I play the other two, I have to constantly check my direction for heals.  I outcleanse FBs and most scrappers.  My group is about to hit another group head-on, staff 5 water goes up ahead of our group so it's in place when we hit.  I just have so much more control of where I put my staff skills.

[Coldtart.4785]

36 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

That honestly just really sounds like you have some real terribad dps classes in your group, but props to that tempest if true. 🤭

Sounds plausible to me. You don't have to do that much damage to tag, just hit lots of things. Since most of the support on tempest comes from traits attached to skills that are good at hitting lots of things you'll get to tag most of the enemy zerg.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

22 minutes ago, Grey Mane.9487 said:

Thank you, Asta, for saying exactly how I feel.  Someone said the "cone" heals from FB and MKS work better.  Well, better hang at the back of the group then.  I love my tempest because I can put 80% of my staff skills wherever the hell I want.  When I play the other two, I have to constantly check my direction for heals.  I outcleanse FBs and most scrappers.  My group is about to hit another group head-on, staff 5 water goes up ahead of our group so it's in place when we hit.  I just have so much more control of where I put my staff skills.

 

2 hours ago, God.2708 said:

Tempest is in a good spot.

 

Tempest was good 2 years ago when it was actually good. After nerfs...scrapper is way better in every possible way.

 

it's funny to me that "after" tempest gets hard nerfed it's now "better" than scrapper now lmao...it's almost like some mass delusion with gw2 community.

 

2 years ago, when it's skills hit 10 targets, could power-rez downs near instantly, and cleanse on par with scrapper and provide massive healing, that's when it was actually good...and at that time nobody played it lmao.

 

Now it's about 75% of what scrapper is capable of doing, all of a sudden its "perfect?" lol again.

 

In addition, the way cone healing works, you don't need to position yourself or aim at people. Pointing your reticule at the floor, the cone will still go it's full range, based on the direction you are turned. I agree that i also prefer tempest gameplay over scrapper...i like to place things where i like as well...but objectively tempest is bad and it has been for 2 years post nerf. If you still play it you just delude yourself into thinking your contributing more than your scrappers are.

[God.2708]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

 

Tempest was good 2 years ago when it was actually good. After nerfs...scrapper is way better in every possible way.

 

it's funny to me that "after" tempest gets hard nerfed it's now "better" than scrapper now lmao...it's almost like some mass delusion with gw2 community.

 

2 years ago, when it's skills hit 10 targets, could power-rez downs near instantly, and cleanse on par with scrapper and provide massive healing, that's when it was actually good...and at that time nobody played it lmao.

 

Now it's about 75% of what scrapper is capable of doing, all of a sudden its "perfect?" lol again.

 

In addition, the way cone healing works, you don't need to position yourself or aim at people. Pointing your reticule at the floor, the cone will still go it's full range, based on the direction you are turned. I agree that i also prefer tempest gameplay over scrapper...i like to place things where i like as well...but objectively tempest is bad and it has been for 2 years post nerf. If you still play it you just delude yourself into thinking your contributing more than your scrappers are.

Mate. All you needed to do is read my entire post instead of quote one sentence.

You know the rest of the post where I said scrapper needs to be brought to Tempests level and other supports to tempests level? The whole reason I said it was in a good spot? It has trade offs for what it does and isn't to overbearing in terms of role fulfillment.

Not circle jerk about how much tempest has lost as though scrapper doesn't have a giant list of nerfs too. (Though usually targeting the wrong thing)

[Kirevey.5079]

It depends on what you consider supporting a group I guess. 

11 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

• Overloads. 

2 of the 4 are not useful for a support role. Fire and Air. In addition of having the downside of being melee. 

Earth has a good effect but sadly is also melee range only. 

Water is the only one of the 4 that can be used in both range and melee. 

 

A problem  that Firebrand has not to deal with, with its tomes. 

 

Assuming you are on a build that has Unstable conduit, aura share, smothering auras and elemental bastion, all overloads will give an aura to 5 ppl which, while running those traits, becomes an AoE cleanse + healing + the utility of each aura. Depending on what weapon you are running, you can also transmute said auras for extra cleanse and utility.

Also, keep in mind that each overload gives some boons/utility and you can abuse those in certain situations. Fire overload is great for might, Air overload give static charge to 5 ppl, which is great on power dps, Water overload is one of the best group cleanses out there, and earth overload is great for protection. Time those with each aura utility, and you have a really good tool to mess with other groups.

About firebrand, the whole spec is pretty much even more melee than tempest. Tempest stuff happens around the tempest, for most Firebrand skills (tomes included) you need to aim  the cone of the skill for ppl to get the benefits. The big AoE skills of each tome have almost the same range as water attunement, and suffer from the fact that, in most fight, you can cast those skill mostly 1 or 2 times.

Also, keep in mind that Firebrand is a different kind of support, it gives stab and blocks, and some healing, but in general a tempest will out heal and out cleanse a firebrand, is just a different role in the group.

12 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

• Weapons

Tempest has Staff as it's only ranged option and we know how bad this weapon is. 

Daggers and warhorn are melee. And as we all know, Melee only = bad in Wvw. 

Staff ele is often overlooked as a good support weapon. Staff is all about area denial and soft CC, while having the highest pocket healing if you know how to use water auto attacks.

• Unsteady Ground and Static Field are great at stopping the enemy from pushing into you to early or bating stab casts.
• Frozen Ground is great for soft CC plus you can self blast it for Frost Aura.
• Healing Rain is great for cleansing on a big push  as it cover a big area and can help ppl getting stuck on an immob far from the group.
• Did I mention that you also bring 2 blasts (cleanse on light field, heal on water field, frozen aura on ice field). Windborne speed? immomb/chill/cripple remove from 5 ppl. Staff is really a great weapon.

 

Dagger and warhorn are melee, but again. All support on this game revolves around being close to people to give them something. Dagger and warhorn are not bad in WvW, you just need to run them when your group needs them. Dagger has evades, immob, shocking aura, healing cone on water. Warhorn, is about CCing ppl and giving some support. They are not bad, they just fill certain roles in a fight.

 

How about Focus? best cleanse out there plus your best survival and hard single target CC.

 

12 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

• Traits. 

Here we have multiple problems. 

Fire is only used for the Condi clear on aura and it doesn't add anything other then maybe an additional Fire Aura. Why this does not matter later. 

We are forced to run Aura Share in Water to even get the function Tempest should have in the first place. 

Which means both of the other GM traits which are technically a nice choice are pointless. 

Water also has Soothing Mist. A unique healing effect that makes up a big part of Tempest effectiveness as a healer. To bad we get to the next problem. 

The thing with Fire line, is that is supercharges your cleanses, specially if you run focus on offhand. Sunspot becomes and AoE cleanse with Smothering Auras, Pyromancers Training makes your fire skill recharge faster, which in turn makes focus 5 aura have the same cooldown as the transmute, so you can double tap it for a big cleanse (plus might). If you run Pyromancer's Puissance, you algo become a might battery. Burning Fire gives you some much needed self cleanse when they overload you with condis.

 

If you don't want to run aura share, you can get some utility out of tempest by playing differently, run 2 aura shouts with Trooper runes and a staff, you still get the same healing but less cleanse. Aura share has to be like that, because auras are too strong, there has to be some downside.

 

Depending on your group composition, you can drop Fire for Earth if your group needs more protection, or you need more survival. You can also run Air for spamming Shocking aura with fresh air, You can go Arcane and run the immob trait on arcane skills and do setups for your team to bomb. There is actually a lot of variety.

12 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

• Gameplay. 

To reach its full effectiveness, Tempest needs to switch attunements. 

Sadly 2/4 attunements are pointless, 1 is kinda OK and 1 serves the main purpose in healing. 

Switching off water also has even more negative side effects. We loose a healing modifier but also Soothing mist in addition to loosing all support skills on the weapon. 

Again, Firebrand has not to deal with this. 

Aquamancer's Training is applied even if you are not on Water attunement. Also, soothing mist is applied for 10s every 3 seconds, which means that it will last for around 7s after you switch attunements. 

About the support, again, it comes on many forms. Just healing and cleansing is not enough, and if you run out of healing or cleansing after you leave your water attunement you are doing something wrong.

13 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

• Auras

Auras are simply bad effects. 

Not only is what they do not strong enough but the fact that their effects trigger on getting hit is a major problem. 

One of the goals in combat is not getting hit. 

The better you are, the more you avoid attacks. 

Which means, the better you are, the lower the Value of auras. 

I thing the goal in the game is defeating your enemies. This is not Dark Souls. Sure, not getting hit is great, but in reality, and in WvW, you are goin to get hit a lot, and that is why auras are great. They hit you with fire aura? they giving you might for your next attack. They hit you with schocking aura? good luck getting stunned or getting your stab tack removed. Ice aura? you take less damage, thats great when you know you can't dodge a bomb. Magnetik aura? have you seen the amount of prjectiles in WvW ?

Auras are great in WvW because the nature of the game mode makes it very likely that you are goin to get hit.

13 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

• Runes

Minor point but the best run for Tempest is Trooper. Sadly it gives Vita instead of Heal power.

Which lowers Tempest heal output drastically. 

Runes are a problem for all supports, they are all stuck with 1 or 2 options. Firebrand runs either Durability or Monk, Scrapper runs Monk or Fireworks I think (I don't remember) and Ele runs Tropper if you are shout heavy or back to Monk If you are not.

13 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

• Boons

Stability? Need I say more? 

Everyone wants their support to have all the good things, but the reality is that would be bad for the game. Right now, more than giving more stuff to support, I say we need to tone them down quite a bit. WvW these days is very boring because the boon ball is just too much. 

Right now, the main culprit is Scrapper, simply because medkit 1 + superspeed. The rest is fine, not every class need to give every boon in the game.

[Alize.4756]

3 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

That honestly just really sounds like you have some real terribad dps classes in your group, but props to that tempest if true. 🤭

No, I just know how to play my class well and tag a lot because of it.

[Shroud.2307]

1 hour ago, God.2708 said:

Not circle jerk about how much ______ has lost as though ______ doesn't have a giant list of nerfs too.

This is applicable to so many disagreements.

Way too many people pointing fingers and living in their own bubble like their class(es) is the only one that has ever been nerfed.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Shroud.2307

[MedievalThings.5417]

People expect every support to do the same thing...they don't.

Firebrand - cause stability

Scrapper - cause cleanse and stealth

Tempest - cause cleanse and aura

 

No, they aren't equal.  The first is mandatory, the second or third are nice.  And yes, people do tend to favor the second slot to superspeed/stealth, it is what it is.

 

That said, as a support scrapper main, superspeed should not even exist.  Kind of like how stealthed players should never move faster than about 80% of normal run speed while in stealth.  Game has a lot of things that need adjusting, but tempest isn't handicapped as bad as people are claiming, and auras have no counterplay other than stop attacking.  Take your pick as to how you want to support, but they aren't meant to do the same thing.

[Kozumi.5816]

16 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

2 of the 4 are not useful for a support role. Fire and Air. In addition of having the downside of being melee. 

Shock aura is the best defensive buff in the entire game. Fire auras are your best HPS. Fire overloads is how you heal.

  

16 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Auras are simply bad effects. 

Magnetic aura is projectile reflect. Shock aura is massive CC(and basically stops anyone from killing you who doesn't have stab). Frost auras are 10% flat DR to all damage and chill is insane for kiting/surviving

Tempest doesn't need a single buff; auras are essentially AOE invul to everyone.

 

Tempest supports are NOT fun to fight and make entire groups invincible. Do not listen to people asking for tempest buffs.

  

3 hours ago, Kirevey.5079 said:

Daggers and warhorn are melee. And as we all know, Melee only = bad in Wvw. 

Have you played WvW at all? Honest question. You should be stacked on your commander tag 100% of the time. Melee is the ONLY way to play WvW, and has been for 3+ years.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[Jski.6180]

8 hours ago, God.2708 said:

Tempest outboons scrapper ever since the PoP nerf.

You could argue that the fact scrapper gives quickness is more valuable, but saying it gives more boons is nonsense. Scrapper barely generates any boons except regeneration (PoP aside).

Tempest is in a good spot. Scrapper should be brought down to its level, and druid and whatever other heal/cleanse oriented supports should be brought up to its level.

Well that not ture at both points. Every condi eng clears it becomes reg and the fact that scraper applys that boon they get a benfit of being self healed and there by healing others. Ele gets nothing from over capping its boons like that.

Tempest is in the worst spot it has ever been. It lost 10 targets effect for nothing.

[Xenesis.6389]

2 hours ago, Alize.4756 said:

No, I just know how to play my class well and tag a lot because of it.

That just means your dps classes aren't playing their class well and aren't tagging a lot because of it. 🤔

[Kozumi.5816]

10 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Tempest is in the worst spot it has ever been. It lost 10 targets effect for nothing.

It didn't need to gain anything. It's very strong.