Why is it Devs create selfish DPS who cannot apply self boons?

[Puck.3697]

We have seen this in virtuoso and weaver now effectively. 

They're created and balanced on doing optimal DPS with boons. But don't get given a ounce of self boon support to run? This means pure DPS options are only ever run in the highest point of runs and ignored anywhere below. Because the moment boon uptimebecome Non-optimal they fall behind. 

I'm not saying give these proffessions 100% uptime on every boon avaliable. 

I think they got the idea right with reaper. But then overnerfed it's DPS for some reason on the backhand of it. 

I'm guessing this is deep rooted to the concept of "oh but what about boon providers. They will lose their role". 

However I'd argue there's ALOT of boons in this game. 

If weaver could give itself quickness and might. It's not gonna solve quickness for the other 9. 

I'm not saying give this to every DPS but selfish DPS elites with litterally 0 support imho should 

Virtuoso, Weaver and Reaper imho should have this access. Because it's a terrible place to hold the balance of these proffessions entirely on the team. 

The idea of a selfish DPS is it effectively does its own thing among a raid and it's DPS output is the value. 

In gw2 they seem to do this really badly. As effectively the entire raid has to be dedicated to their success. And they can never amp a pure DPS speccs Dps high enough to make that realistically a demanded role in that situation. 

I feel like this was a sore spot for weaver, if it had something like the ability to apply quickness to itself, it'd of likely been alot more successful then it turned out to be in the average raid enviroment and it's sad see the same mistakes made with virtuoso 

 

[Jski.6180]

Well weaver was made before it become an requirement to have powerful boons they where nice to have but you did not need them. Virtuoso i am not so sure maybe that marz and chron have the boons already though it seems marz is an dps memzer and it took chrons class aimed boon. So WHO KNOWS?

[AliamRationem.5172]

I would sure love it if weaver got some self-quickness.  It would also be nice if they got rid of that stupid 10 stack might dump on Pyromancer's Puissance.  Not sure what the idea behind that one was.

[Mell.4873]

15 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

We have seen this in virtuoso and weaver now effectively. 

They're created and balanced on doing optimal DPS with boons. But don't get given a ounce of self boon support to run? This means pure DPS options are only ever run in the highest point of runs and ignored anywhere below. Because the moment boon uptimebecome Non-optimal they fall behind. 

I'm not saying give these proffessions 100% uptime on every boon avaliable. 

I think they got the idea right with reaper. But then overnerfed it's DPS for some reason on the backhand of it. 

I'm guessing this is deep rooted to the concept of "oh but what about boon providers. They will lose their role". 

However I'd argue there's ALOT of boons in this game. 

If weaver could give itself quickness and might. It's not gonna solve quickness for the other 9. 

I'm not saying give this to every DPS but selfish DPS elites with litterally 0 support imho should 

Virtuoso, Weaver and Reaper imho should have this access. Because it's a terrible place to hold the balance of these proffessions entirely on the team. 

The idea of a selfish DPS is it effectively does its own thing among a raid and it's DPS output is the value. 

In gw2 they seem to do this really badly. As effectively the entire raid has to be dedicated to their success. And they can never amp a pure DPS speccs Dps high enough to make that realistically a demanded role in that situation. 

I feel like this was a sore spot for weaver, if it had something like the ability to apply quickness to itself, it'd of likely been alot more successful then it turned out to be in the average raid enviroment and it's sad see the same mistakes made with virtuoso 

 

Necro in general will always be relevant in group content since it can pull players with its shroud F4 skill along with Vampiric Presence and Last Rites are valuable.

Virtuoso as you know can run Inspiration which does not effect DPS much and provide group aegis and heals. The passive group healing in particular are much better on Virtuoso due to how fast you stock blades.

I'm not to familiar with weaver so I cant say if there are some good group buffs.

[Mell.4873]

10 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I would sure love it if weaver got some self-quickness.  It would also be nice if they got rid of that stupid 10 stack might dump on Pyromancer's Puissance.  Not sure what the idea behind that one was.

Last time a looked there was a way to achieve permanently quickness on yourself with lighting fields and variety of other things like runes and sigils.

[AliamRationem.5172]

19 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Last time a looked there was a way to achieve permanently quickness on yourself with lighting fields and variety of other things like runes and sigils.

Lightning fields/combos don't grant quickness and weaver doesn't have access to lightning fields except by taking lightning hammer.  Are you referring to the catalyst's jade sphere?

[Mell.4873]

16 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Lightning fields/combos don't grant quickness and weaver doesn't have access to lightning fields except by taking lightning hammer.  Are you referring to the catalyst's jade sphere?

Sorry my mistake i thought there was a combo.

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Necro in general will always be relevant in group content since it can pull players with its shroud F4 skill along with Vampiric Presence and Last Rites are valuable.

Virtuoso as you know can run Inspiration which does not effect DPS much and provide group aegis and heals. The passive group healing in particular are much better on Virtuoso due to how fast you stock blades.

I'm not to familiar with weaver so I cant say if there are some good group buffs.

Eeeeh I think the DPS loss is wider then you think. 

Given its not guardian level aegis. Or high healing output for the trade off. 

Also as far as I'm aware both these builds would require different utilities? If they assossiate self buffs with psyonics it'd likely widen the DPS gap. 

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Eeeeh I think the DPS loss is wider then you think. 

Given its not guardian level aegis. Or high healing output for the trade off. 

Also as far as I'm aware both these builds would require different utilities? If they assossiate self buffs with psyonics it'd likely widen the DPS gap. 

My Build with all the boon minus the raid ones get me 25k dps (30k with raid buffs). Swapping Dueling with Inspiration makes it 20k I guess if had my 40k DPS gear i guess i would see a bigger difference but not by much since most of the different you will see is in Condition damage not Power damage which Dueling does not effect.

I don't run any different utilities.

[Infusion.7149]

Virtuoso does apply self boons, they come from traits. See Master Fencer which applies Fury and Phantasmal Blades which also applies Fury. If you run offhand sword you also have might generation to the tune of 8 stacks, running greatsword you have 3 stacks of might from mirror blade. You generally don't run Duelist's Reversal due to the conditional nature but I'd imagine that's where quickness and supplemental fury would come from if you don't use Phantasmal Blades.
If weaver gets self applied quickness it should more or less be on weave self. A build not using weave self is more reliant on alacrity than quickness. Weaver could run Pyromancer's Puissance as on the PVP builds (no idea why it removes so much might on weaver) or opt for arcane traitline but both have downsides. A power weaver gets fury from air traitline's raging storm mainly.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Weaver and Virtuoso do give self-boons, though.  Players have just elected to use different traits when running in premades.  

[mungozen.2379]

What would you trade off for these eSpecs providing more self boon application?  DPS of course!  So nerf the DPS then give them boons to rebuff the DPS?

3 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I think they got the idea right with reaper. But then overnerfed it's DPS for some reason on the backhand of it. 

This is why I wouldn't want Virtuoso or Weaver changed to have better self boon application.  All you are doing is moving the pieces around to end up at the same DPS.

[RabbitUp.8294]

You know that you still have access to the base profession, right?

I haven't played ele in a while, but virtuoso can still get quickness by using Persistence of Memory + Phantasmal Haste and/or Arcane Thievery. And it has many sources of might.

Also:

Quote

This means pure DPS options are only ever run in the highest point of runs and ignored anywhere below. Because the moment boon uptimebecome Non-optimal they fall behind. 

It's more of the opposite really, self boons in pve only matter when you are playing alone. Even in open world metas, you find yourself having a bunch of boons from all the aoe spam. Not to mention that whereas EoD is concerned, jade bot gives you all the boons.

In group play, you take 2 supports per 5 people, what are you going to fill those other 3 spots of not pure dps builds. Your thinking seems kind of backwards, you treat selfish dps builds as some sort of a hindrance to the group, when in reality, the reason we have dedicated supports in the first place is so that the rest of the group only cares about maximising their damage. 

I mean, in other mmos, those roles are hardwired into a class. Take wwo for example, there are some classes that can branch out, but if you play mage, your choice is between three different types of dps. Do you think those classes are undesirable?

[The Boz.2038]

A lot of ANet's design really doesn't work in the "solo DPS" department, they seem to be bumbling about a lot in there.

Vindicator is the first class in a decade that can provide quickness for itself, and only itself, without investing *deeply* into diviner's. Kinda hilarious, isn't it?

[RabbitUp.8294]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

A lot of ANet's design really doesn't work in the "solo DPS" department, they seem to be bumbling about a lot in there.

Vindicator is the first class in a decade that can provide quickness for itself, and only itself, without investing *deeply* into diviner's. Kinda hilarious, isn't it?

Maybe it's more of a low hanging fruit with Vindicator, but other classes can do it by taking certain traits. Chrono for example with greatsword, Persistence of Memory, Phantasmal Haste, and Chronophantasma can have a lot of personal quickness. Necro now has two elite specs that give quickness in shroud. 

And speaking of Vindicator, it's no coincidence that it pays a hefty price on maximum dps for all that personal utility. It's the only way to make the kind of spec OP is asking for, without making endgame pve into stacking 10 self-sufficient damage dealers.

[Dadnir.5038]

I think this whole thread is why the devs are currently trying to separate quickness/alacrity from dps builds.

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

Maybe it's more of a low hanging fruit with Vindicator, but other classes can do it by taking certain traits. Chrono for example with greatsword, Persistence of Memory, Phantasmal Haste, and Chronophantasma can have a lot of personal quickness. Necro now has two elite specs that give quickness in shroud. 

And speaking of Vindicator, it's no coincidence that it pays a hefty price on maximum dps for all that personal utility. It's the only way to make the kind of spec OP is asking for, without making endgame pve into stacking 10 self-sufficient damage dealers.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, I think what we're talking about here is having some access to quickness on dependent classes like weaver.  Not 100% uptime.  Just some so that you are not 100% dependent upon support for competitive DPS output on a selfish DPS class.  Weaver's rotation is especially sensitive to boon uptime and it's one of several problems with weaver in actual play vs. weaver on a golem.

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I think this whole thread is why the devs are currently trying to separate quickness/alacrity from dps builds.

Then don't make pure DPS speccs. If they aren't accessible by 99% of the population, their generating hatred towards elites intentionally. 

These builds are noob traps. People make them seeing their massive numbers without full understanding end up at max level can't remotely get close to the DPS they should be doing and then make posts believing the problem is them among training runs with barely any offensive boon uptime. 

Either this or reduce boons impact on builds in trade of the build being stronger. I've never seen a game this balanced on buffs effectively. Let alone 100% uptime buffs. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Stx.4857]

If every dps spec could self buff Quickness and might without having to buildcraft for it, wouldn't that make the game boring?  All classes having the same stuff usually kills games for me.  

 

I'm not saying class balance in this game is great, I actually think it's pretty horrible.  But I like that specs have clear differences.  I do agree though that each spec should have something they can self buff...  just not all the same stuff.  I think the issue currently is we have some specs that can do it all with little downside.  

[RabbitUp.8294]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Unless I'm misunderstanding, I think what we're talking about here is having some access to quickness on dependent classes like weaver.  Not 100% uptime.  Just some so that you are not 100% dependent upon support for competitive DPS output on a selfish DPS class.  Weaver's rotation is especially sensitive to boon uptime and it's one of several problems with weaver in actual play vs. weaver on a golem.

But weaver is hardly the exception. If you just copy a dps build off of snowcrows, chances there's no QoL/utility in there and it's tuned for maximum dps. That's the whole point of dps.

There's nothing stopping you from slotting a Sigil of Rage/Celerity to any build to give it some quickness.

[Puck.3697]

14 minutes ago, Stx.4857 said:

If every dps spec could self buff Quickness and might without having to buildcraft for it, wouldn't that make the game boring?  All classes having the same stuff usually kills games for me.  

 

I'm not saying class balance in this game is great, I actually think it's pretty horrible.  But I like that specs have clear differences.  I do agree though that each spec should have something they can self buff...  just not all the same stuff.  I think the issue currently is we have some specs that can do it all with little downside.  

I'm not saying every one of them to do the same thing. 

If every DPS specc could yes it would be. If every glass cannon could, no really. This game has ALOT less glass cannons then DPS speccs realistically. 

Virtuoso, weaver reaper and willbender are effectively the only selfish DPS. 

Dragonhunter / firebrand, chrono, etc etc generally all bring utility. Through CC  etc etc. 

The difference is however.

Weavers build doesn't function without alacrity weave self burst rotation isnt possible. When things are that tightly stitched to boon uptime it's important the specc has the tools to atleast make the specc function. 

Maybe this is simply not the correct fix. But I think the situation warrants looking at. Every glass cannon proffession is just getting put on the bench in PvE content. 

I think with the current structure of boons this role cannot rly happen 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Dadnir.5038]

22 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Then don't make pure DPS speccs. If they aren't accessible by 99% of the population, their generating hatred towards elites intentionally. 

These builds are noob traps. People make them seeing their massive numbers without full understanding end up at max level can't remotely get close to the DPS they should be doing and then make posts believing the problem is them among training runs with barely any offensive boon uptime. 

Either this or reduce boons impact on builds in trade of the build being stronger. I've never seen a game this balanced on buffs effectively. Let alone 100% uptime buffs. 

I don't think you really understand. The devs goal is for players to be dependant on each other in order to perform at 100%. A dps spec which need the 100% buff uptime from it's support is totally what the devs are working for.

The builds aren't "noob traps", the builds are meta builds wich mean that they are part of a wider meta. A meta build out of it's meta is supposed to underperform.

For example, If your meta build revolve around epibouncing and you're a lonely necromancer within the group, you'll underperform because there is nobody to bounce epi with, it is as simple as that (it's an outdated example but easy enough to understand).

Another example would be when you would go with 4 dps chrono, they were each providing 25% quickness/alacrity uptime and that's the only reason it ever worked. Alone it was underforming badly.

I don't think such thing is bad design nor do I think that there is a need to reduce the impact of boons. This is a mmo, the devs want players to play and strive with each other. The devs want players to be able to fill each roles but limit builds that fullfill more than a single role. I do think that it's an ambitious, almost impossible goal that they've given themselves but it's a pretty nice goal nonetheless.

[Puck.3697]

12 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

But weaver is hardly the exception. If you just copy a dps build off of snowcrows, chances there's no QoL/utility in there and it's tuned for maximum dps. That's the whole point of dps.

There's nothing stopping you from slotting a Sigil of Rage/Celerity to any build to give it some quickness.

Except DPS losses on a proffession built to maximise. This is the issue with reaper. 

If your a pure DPS doing as much DPS as a hybrid, you are no longer value. 

[Puck.3697]

2 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I don't think you really understand. The devs goal is for players to be dependant on each other in order to perform at 100%. A dps spec which need the 100% buff uptime from it's support is totally what the devs are working for.

The builds aren't "noob traps", the builds are meta builds wich mean that they are part of a wider meta. A meta build out of it's meta is supposed to underperform.

For example, If your meta build revolve around epibouncing and you're a lonely necromancer within the group, you'll underperform because there is nobody to bounce epi with, it is as simple as that (it's an outdated example but easy enough to understand).

Another example would be when you would go with 4 dps chrono, they were each providing 25% quickness/alacrity uptime and that's the only reason it ever worked. Alone it was underforming badly.

I don't think such thing is bad design nor do I think that there is a need to reduce the impact of boons. This is a mmo, the devs want players to play and strive with each other. The devs want players to be able to fill each roles but limit builds that fullfill more than a single role. I do think that it's an ambitious, almost impossible goal that they've given themselves but it's a pretty nice goal nonetheless.

Maybe so. But even in top play these proffessions aren't played. Generally because at top play they become overpowered which leads to them getting nerfed. And making them completely unplayable at medium gameplay. 

It's a trickle down effect. 

I'd understand builds being this way I.E you have that DH build which does 41k DPS in optimal enviroments. But you have a build less dependent on optimal enviroments that does 37k. That's fine 

But when a entire specc is structured on it.. generally it benchs the entire specc not just a particular situational build 

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

2 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

But when a entire specc is structured on it.. generally it benchs the entire specc not just a particular situational build

That's where you're wrong, there is nothing like an entire spec structured on dealing damage. You may think so, but that's not true.

Virtuoso can exploit it's mechanism to be the mesmer's best healer spec for example. Weaver can be a healer (a very strong one) or a tank if he wish so.  Reaper is as good at strike damage than he is at condition damage, it doesn't mean that he can't build to be tanky as well... etc.