Dragon's End Meta is Garbage

[The Boz.2038]

Still doesn't work. Are you generating the share link, or copying from the addressbar?

[Tachenon.5270]

2 minutes ago, Mithrilos.8036 said:

mmmh. https://gw2efficiency.com/account/character/Allegra Hammerclaw

And now ? I'm not going to spam it everywhere. if it fail, forget it.

Odd, your link isn't working properly for me either, but THIS one is --

https://gw2efficiency.com/account/character/Aera Healscourge/share?filter.equipmentTab=1

 

[Mithrilos.8036]

I was using the adressbar

https://gw2efficiency.com/c/Allegra Hammerclaw

[&DQILKTMaFjumAHAAogFxAGoAswCzAKsAnACcAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=]

I just saw the share link

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

The other big problem with this meta and its difficulty is that there are too many things tied to a successful completion of the event, and if you don't know that you have a small window to do those things then you are stuck having to do it all over again and hope for a win (yes HOPE for a win) or you will simply be locked out of completing certain things.  The amount of disrespect for player time in this expansion is huge.

[Erise.5614]

25 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

 

I know im jumping in to the middle, but im personally really curious, what was said in the thread by boz that gave the imprission?

 

It's mostly a long string of intentionally misrepresenting points into the absurd.

Quote

"Please don't demand of the training commander even more time and special consideration above and beyond what they are freely volunteering by holding this training run"

Quote

Erise wants the event soloable, so you can "play real well" and then "enhance your chance of winning significantly". Don't think anything less than that qualifies.

Just to name two examples. Which is a fairly aggressive style of argument usually escalating tensions. Assuming escalation is their goal is not much of a stretch from there.

 

25 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Personally i dont see a problem with just doing it with ones guild. (in the end my main reason for thinking events like ED should exist is the increase of guilds around these events.)

There's a small but very important difference between just doing it with ones guild. And doing it just with ones guild.

It's fine to take an easier route by grouping up with people you know and can rely on. But it's a different story if you must do that for open world content. That just means it's soon to be mostly dead content that can't be played by the general player base. 

25 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

If you want to consistently beat it, you could command a squad of your own (probably with some thoughts in how  boons are generated, which doesnt mean asking people to change builds, just ask who can provide alac and quick for example.)

I do understand that that is a pretty high bar to pass and a lot of work to do.

 

Lastly, because i do DE mostly without LI req groups, do these groups hactually have an higher succes percentage?

That's not a guarantee for winning. I tried that, as well as experimenting with macros. The issue is simply that it needs full knowledge of all classes, all builds and then making mostly right assumptions. Which is just far beyond what I'm capable of or what I'll be capable of anytime soon.

Because just having quickness and alac isn't enough. I've been in 4 groups asking and distributing those two support roles. Food and all the other standard stuff. But still failed. Because those are multiplicative buffs. They make you much stronger when you're already very strong. And only a little stronger if you aren't that strong. 

On a strong map it's a breeze. Which is why I suspect there's a whole bunch of people talking down to the others who can't complete it. But on others all of these things have little impact and it's doomed from the moment it started. 

And yes. I've not heard of a fail from an LI group in my guild chats. Despite DE being a frequent topic there. People recommend communities and these LI groups for clearing. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Shivan.9438]

*Anet spends years designing content that can be beaten by grinding a burrito into the keyboard.

*Expect casual community that doesn't raid or do fractals to beat a boss that requires coordination and having to use both hands to play.

*Slap a 2 hour set up to fail a boss within 30 minutes.
*Throw in RNG because that's what makes things fun and exciting!!

GG
 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Shivan.9438

[Mithrilos.8036]

the only and first time I led the map for the Meta, we managed to fail at 10% its not a big gap. in due time I'm sure it will work.

Again I'm repeating this in circle.

 

Edit : so did the last link worked finally ? After all those attempt at sharing my stuff I'm a bit curious now.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Mithrilos.8036

[Geckoo.6018]

26 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Dragon's End is the same mistake they made with Chak, PoF metas, Tequatl, Triple Trouble and plenty of other content. Designing it for a much more hardcore audience than they really have and then having to backpaddle hard to compensate. Or abandoning it out right accepting it doesn't get done by the majority of players.

 

In my opinion the key is to know where and when challenging open world content can exist, even if it ends up being played less.

When you have one single meta event for the whole zone and that meta event is a crucial part of the story it's probably not the best place to raise the level. In this case the whole zone exist for the meta. My first impression with the zone was that the meta event stole a jade sea themed map from us and i still stand by those words and hope that at some point during the future LW we get the chance to experience another jade sea zone built around the fact that it is the jade sea... but that's a different subject.

We have plenty of zones that have a wide variety of things going on and even have more than one meta event. I see nothing wrong about having one of those meta events be a real challenge that feels and requires a higher than usual skill level and organization. Triple trouble is not a perfect example, but it is close enough: is not a crucial part of the story, there is otherstuff happening in that zone and it requires organized and coordinated squads with leading figures not just commander tags.

 

[Erise.5614]

8 minutes ago, Geckoo.6018 said:

 

In my opinion the key is to know where and when challenging open world content can exist, even if it ends up being played less.

When you have one single meta event for the whole zone and that meta event is a crucial part of the story it's probably not the best place to raise the level. In this case the whole zone exist for the meta. My first impression with the zone was that the meta event stole a jade sea themed map from us and i still stand by those words and hope that at some point during the future LW we get the chance to experience another jade sea zone built around the fact that it is the jade sea... but that's a different subject.

We have plenty of zones that have a wide variety of things going on and even have more than one meta event. I see nothing wrong about having one of those meta events be a real challenge that feels and requires a higher than usual skill level and organization. Triple trouble is not a perfect example, but it is close enough: is not a crucial part of the story, there is otherstuff happening in that zone and it requires organized and coordinated squads with leading figures not just commander tags.

 

Very well put!

I would add that it should be framed in a special way. Either calling it something different or starting it based on special actions rather than on a timer. Something to clearly differentiate it from other metas. Epic meta or what not. 

Presentation and the exitance of an alternative, smooth progression path is more important than whether it exists.

DE is a problem because it's DE. Because of how it's integrated into everything else.

[The Boz.2038]

32 minutes ago, Mithrilos.8036 said:

I was using the adressbar

https://gw2efficiency.com/c/Allegra Hammerclaw

[&DQILKTMaFjumAHAAogFxAGoAswCzAKsAnACcAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=]

I just saw the share link

Alright, now it works, ok.
Looks like a sturdy OW/WvW build. The most I can imagine someone asking you to change is to bring a banner instead of Dolyak. Generally, if you're not attracted to Berserker, the most you should consider is maybe adding a second weapon, because you are using Discipline, but leaving a lot on the table.

[Mithrilos.8036]

12 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Alright, now it works, ok.
Looks like a sturdy OW/WvW build. The most I can imagine someone asking you to change is to bring a banner instead of Dolyak. Generally, if you're not attracted to Berserker, the most you should consider is maybe adding a second weapon, because you are using Discipline, but leaving a lot on the table.

I'm splitting left handed and right handed on the two set, so I can swap and use the swap boons (its an old trick that allow you to swap with only one set of weapon)

Edit : it wasn't because I recently tried another weapon and I forgot to bring back my old setting

Edit 2 : also yeah I heard ya on the banner, I mostly play alone, and met up people randomly, so I'm generally focusing on my own performance. hence why I forgot the support part.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Mithrilos.8036

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

Once again. This is an absurd, bad faith strawman. 

Basically all metas since old school world bosses require far more than pressing 1.

And the challenge with DE isn't related to gameplay at all. 

Framing this as our or your way is already a problem. My original point was making fun of the absurd strawman put forward, once again, by the boz.

Now, two points here. Strike CMs are on their way with specific release dates. Jfc, and you call others impatient. 

But secondly. Yes. Even now it's too steep a curve. This is not how you teach players anything. This is how you drive them away. If you ever want more challenging content your focus should be on making it either as cheap as possible for ANet to make or on having as many people reach that level of gameplay and making the experience for everyone as pleasant as possible.

DE ain't it. Not even strikes are it. They are almost there but the instadeath mechanics (laser covering two circles in Hideout, Pushy AOE fields in Junkyard, Robot laser in Outlook and orb trail in Harvest Temple to name just one example for each).

Just to clarify. This is not me having my way. Nerfs, even additional nerfs to DE in another month, are predictable results due to poor design and lack of consideration on ANets side. The designers over there have pretty much agreed with you fellas since forever. Trying to do more. But realizing that it's too expensive. They are loosing too much.

Dragon's End is the same mistake they made with Chak, PoF metas, Tequatl, Triple Trouble and plenty of other content. Designing it for a much more hardcore audience than they really have and then having to backpaddle hard to compensate. Or abandoning it out right accepting it doesn't get done by the majority of players.

I want better ramps of difficulty so they can invest in difficult content. But that starts with standardization across encounters, obvious presentation of what's expected and making sure people knowingly enter content with the right assumptions. 

There is no too high curve.
Seitung meta required you to position yourself, dodge a few stuff and stop focusing the boss to get rid of something small(Bulwark Gyro),
Kaineng, no major mechanics, but required you to focus on other stuff at set interwals(every 25%)
Echovald requires you to constantly move due to the AoEs and requires you to hide behind rubble

These metas are before Dragon's End. Dragon's End makes you focus on enemies other than the boss(Thornheart, Tail), makes you hide from certain attacks, first as standing in Greens, then hiding behind crystals. DE also makes you be on the look out for AoEs. 

Dragon's End is nothing more than the first 3 metas combined into one. You look at a mechanic it is present in either one of the metas from the rest of Cantha.

If people are driven away because on a single meta they can't get away with doing anything the previous metas tried to teach then there wasn't much holding them in the first place. 

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

or on having as many people reach that level of gameplay and making the experience for everyone as pleasant as possible.

Based on the complaints about having to do a Strike for a mount, or newly having to do either the Strike or story encounter for a weapon do you think people try to reach that level?
Screaming about toxicity and people shielding themselves in Strikes or generally noone doing Strike while early on out of 10 Strike groups 4 were for the Turtle, 5 were either no LI or Training groups and your usual dumb 250-500LI group.

The constant nerfing of anything remotely interesting in EoD will just tell people that they only have to put effort into complaining something is too hard and Anet will nerf it to the point where they just show up and it's done.

[evlover.6270]

These endless discussions about the meta being too hard are getting tiresome. There will always be people happy about something, and others that aren't. There used to be a time before discord, that people had to be on ts3 to create fresh IP's for tequatl, entire guilds were created just for the purpose of killing it and lasted for years (TTS, TxS etc). These times were great and long forgotten and don't get me wrong, I'm not asking to bring them back. But over all these years, the bar the game was setting for meta events went lower, and lower, and lower, and lower.. We've gotten much more power/condi dps output with elites specs acros the years, alacrity that didn't exist, quickness that went from just being available through timewarp to being a mainstream boon, dedicated healers instead of keeping yourself up with your own heal skill.. While meanwhile, most PvE world bosses only got a minor toughness increase (and hell, the 25 condi limit was removed from teq, it got 3 hitboxes instead of 1..).

Variable world boss timers on home servers that made the worlds really feel alive got replaced by fixed timers and cross-server generated IP's and now everyone just wants to go somewhere on a fixed time (preferably afk till final 10% hp), press 1, get loot and move on to the thing that spawns next. The joy of EoD is that it finally brought back engaging meta events that require active gameplay and doing mechanics (or get oneshot like at Gang Wars meta), giving players an incentive to get better instead of slacking. While I do agree the rewards should be reworked for the DE meta (since like what has already been said: doing an event for 90-120mins and failing it while getting zero loot is pretty harsh to say the least, so rewards at set intervals like in drizzlewood would seem to be in place here), there is absolutely nothing wrong with the meta event itself. The nerf they did to it was already an unnecessary adjustment. There are plenty of groups getting it done consistently with 5-10mins left on the timer, hence using only 50-75% of the allotted time to get it done, and no, they aren't groups of 50 hardcore players but a mix of newer/longer playing people but with decent builds. They get it done without even getting the 20% damage buff since there are commanders that instantly start maps to save time instead of bothering with pre events, even though that means you can't loot all the boxes at the end then. 

Point is: for a long time, people haven't bothered about improving cause there was no need to, and now that they do, they panic. Just give it some time, the community will improve in general (it already has improved a lot since EoD launch) and in due time, this meta will be a meta just like any other meta. And if you can't make it now or don't want to try multiple times, wait for the community catch up. But if you want to improve your success rate of doing it before the community has adjusted to the meta, join groups that use voice channels and don't insta start but do pre events for 20% extra damage. But stop ranting about a meta being to hard if you don't bother about doing 10 events for 20% extra damage, don't have proper gear stats/build and don't take the 150 power/condi stat from the jade stations and have a look in the mirror instead.                           

Edited March 30, 2022 by evlover.6270

[Ashantara.8731]

21 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

I'd love to see you stream beat Soo Won without prep and without joining a map prior in 1 hour or less.

I joined a Hardstuck public squad the other day right when the final meta NPCs started splitting up in the three directions. When I asked I was told they had not done a one-hour preperation this time. It worked out perfectly fine (less loot chests to open at the end, though, since we didn't have the +10 buff).

Edited March 30, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[Erise.5614]

1 minute ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Dragon's End is nothing more than the first 3 metas combined into one. You look at a mechanic it is present in either one of the metas from the rest of Cantha.

If that was the case there wouldn't be a problem.

Only it also combines the amount of DPS needed of all 3. The mechanics really aren't a problem. 

2 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

These metas are before Dragon's End.

Also not entirely true. Because the story leads you past all 3 directly into DE. You need to actively seek them out earlier to have experienced them first.

In the way ANet structured this, DE is first for a lot of people. While also ramping up the difficulty not in the mechanics that are taught but in a completely unrelated category. 

4 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

The constant nerfing of anything remotely interesting in EoD will just tell people that they only have to put effort into complaining something is too hard and Anet will nerf it to the point where they just show up and it's done.

The opposite has been failing for almost 10 years now. Maybe it's worth thinking not top down. Eat or die. Know everything and perform excellently or fail.

But rather bottom up for a change. Where ANet deliberately builds upon concepts and only tests those concepts. So we can eventually end up with the end game you are looking for.

As it stands. It's just Chak, Tequatl and so many other metas which are originally designed for hardcore players, messed up the general player base too badly and then needed to be fixed retroactively by making it super easy. There is no middle ground because ANet never designed one. And duct tape solutions are always worse than deliberate creation.

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Mithrilos.8036 said:

I'm splitting left handed and right handed on the two set, so I can swap and use the swap boons

AH! OK, that makes sense.

[The Boz.2038]

5 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Because the story leads you past all 3 directly into DE.

The story doesn't lead you to the DE meta.
Jesus, this was a *big* stretch to try and pretend to have an argument.

[mythical.6315]

10 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I joined a Hardstuck public squad the other day right when the final meta NPCs started splitting up in the three directions. When I asked I was told they had not done a one-hour preperation this time. It worked out perfectly fine (less loot chests to open at the end, though, since we didn't have the +10 buff).

It doesn’t matter as it’s still impossible because: reasons /s

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

1 hour ago, Mithrilos.8036 said:

should be doable with an average build

What is an average build? Mine or yours? Or theirs? The statistical average?

[Mithrilos.8036]

Just now, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

What is an average build? Mine or yours? Or theirs? The statistical average?

average build for me is having a balance between offensive and defensive stats.

[Geckoo.6018]

1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

The story doesn't lead you to the DE meta.
Jesus, this was a *big* stretch to try and pretend to have an argument.

There is no achievement about completing the aetherblade meta before moving to kaineng or doing the junkyard meta before leaving Echovald... but there is one for completing the meta event before completing the story instance and they are actually connected in terms of story progression.

So sure, it does not lead you directly to the meta, but the way the whole thing is designed does indeed suggest the player to first do the meta and then do the story.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

7 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

If that was the case there wouldn't be a problem.

Only it also combines the amount of DPS needed of all 3. The mechanics really aren't a problem. 

Also not entirely true. Because the story leads you past all 3 directly into DE. You need to actively seek them out earlier to have experienced them first.

In the way ANet structured this, DE is first for a lot of people. While also ramping up the difficulty not in the mechanics that are taught but in a completely unrelated category. 

The opposite has been failing for almost 10 years now. Maybe it's worth thinking not top down. Eat or die. Know everything and perform excellently or fail.

But rather bottom up for a change. Where ANet deliberately builds upon concepts and only tests those concepts. So we can eventually end up with the end game you are looking for.

As it stands. It's just Chak, Tequatl and so many other metas which are originally designed for hardcore players, messed up the general player base too badly and then needed to be fixed retroactively by making it super easy. There is no middle ground because ANet never designed one. And duct tape solutions are always worse than deliberate creation.

Nothing in GW2 is "Know everything and perform excellently or fail", and that's even more true for everything about EoD. Just because people got used to steamrolling through open world without worrying about CC, positioning, dodging a little challenge is not a massive curve.

During the story the game doesn't tell you to skip everything and go to Dragon's End for the meta. If you spend the least amount of time on any of the maps you'll encounter the metas. In the next 90 minutes 3 EoD metas will start.

 

[Tachenon.5270]

I dunno, the outcome seems oddly inconsistent. We're still seeing reports of organized groups failing, while at the same time disorganized groups -- like the one I was in last night -- are succeeding with minutes to spare. Is it RNG, still? Could there be some other factor involved? Some elusive bug?

Or... maybe its not a 'bug' at all. I mean, there's at least one cow in the zone. Maybe its not a cow at all, but an avatar of... the Spirit of Cow! Maybe if everybody took a moment to entertain, er, I mean Honor the Spirit of Cow before undertaking the meta, the map would get some sort of undisclosed bovine blessing, and success would be assured! Maybe that's why some are experiencing brilliant and timely victories, while others fail miserably.

Don't look at me like that.

[yann.1946]

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

It's mostly a long string of intentionally misrepresenting points into the absurd.

Just to name two examples. Which is a fairly aggressive style of argument usually escalating tensions. Assuming escalation is their goal is not much of a stretch from there.

I see, thank you.  I personally wouldnt have seen it that way

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

There's a small but very important difference between just doing it with ones guild. And doing it just with ones guild.

It's fine to take an easier route by grouping up with people you know and can rely on. But it's a different story if you must do that for open world content. That just means it's soon to be mostly dead content that can't be played by the general player base. 

I guess the difference is more a philosophical one. Does a piece of content need to be played by the general playerbase to be succesful? I think TT is sucesfull, and i think Anet agrees, but that is also only payed by guild for the most part.

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

That's not a guarantee for winning. I tried that, as well as experimenting with macros. The issue is simply that it needs full knowledge of all classes, all builds and then making mostly right assumptions. Which is just far beyond what I'm capable of or what I'll be capable of anytime soon.

Like i said before, i wouldnt expect anyone to put themselfs through that perse. The thing i am most curious about though is, when should a meta have a guarantee of winning?

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

Because just having quickness and alac isn't enough. I've been in 4 groups asking and distributing those two support roles. Food and all the other standard stuff. But still failed. Because those are multiplicative buffs. They make you much stronger when you're already very strong. And only a little stronger if you aren't that strong. 

On a strong map it's a breeze.

This is true

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

Which is why I suspect there's a whole bunch of people talking down to the others who can't complete it.

Well the talking down is a consequence of some people being kittens. 

The succesrate in good groups is the reason for the big schism in perception though. (in both directions i might add, some people will be baffled on how people can fail the meta, while others are baffled people can clear consistently)

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

But on others all of these things have little impact and it's doomed from the moment it started. 

I would love to see the data Anet has about this meta, this last statement you made is a pretty strong statement but there is not really a way to check how true it is without the internal data.

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

And yes. I've not heard of a fail from an LI group in my guild chats. Despite DE being a frequent topic

there. People recommend communities and these LI groups for clearing. 

Good to know, i never bothered with these group except ones in the beginning when i couldnt find a map.

[Naxos.2503]

17 minutes ago, Tachenon.5270 said:

I dunno, the outcome seems oddly inconsistent. We're still seeing reports of organized groups failing, while at the same time disorganized groups -- like the one I was in last night -- are succeeding with minutes to spare. Is it RNG, still? Could there be some other factor involved? Some elusive bug?

Or... maybe its not a 'bug' at all. I mean, there's at least one cow in the zone. Maybe its not a cow at all, but an avatar of... the Spirit of Cow! Maybe if everybody took a moment to entertain, er, I mean Honor the Spirit of Cow before undertaking the meta, the map would get some sort of undisclosed bovine blessing, and success would be assured! Maybe that's why some are experiencing brilliant and timely victories, while others fail miserably.

Don't look at me like that.

I think that inconsistence Can be explained to some degree by RNG.

In my case, the last two metas I did failed because after we dropped her to 20% she kept moving back and forth from side to side, making it nigh impossible to deal damage to her. When she does that : not only does it trigger an invulnerability frame, but it also forces the group to change location.

I imagine that if she moved only once in a fixed pattern, or if she could be hit during that move, that meta would still be challenging, but would succeed more consistently. As it stands, it can fail because the boss refuses to be hit. Which, you know. That's kinda bad.