Firebrand tomes nerf: pick one?

[The Boz.2038]

12 hours ago, Sonork.2916 said:

Only people left complaining about FB prob don't play it.  2/3 of the tomes decrease your dmg to zero and all make weapon skills unusable.  Which mode do you think FB is still OP in? Cause it's bad in PVP, and in WVW it's just a stab/boon bot.   So that leaves PvE, so it raids you want them nerfed in?  Cause all other PvE doesn't really matter.

You are ignoring the part of the conversation of "You aren't likely to get buffed in other content so long as the 'you bring heal, damage, CC, cleanse, stability, aegis, swiftness, etc. always forever baked in' is a fact". Why?
Also, PvE matters, and your elitism is disgusting.

[The Boz.2038]

11 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

So, Mr. Boz, your “pathway to buffs in pvp/wvw” would be something like this I presume;

Grand master trait decides which time you get. 

Tomes no longer have cool downs, but page count recharge rates (like an ammo skill) of, say, 5 seconds a page. (Note, skills still do have cool downs)

You can freely enter and leave a tome (as you would a kit) so long as there are pages left. 
Increase the impact of time skills (Buffs!)

Perhaps give mobility to one skill in each tome? (Leap, dash, and teleport respectively)

This allows for a faster gameplay that frequently goes in and out of tomes to have the maximally advantageous effect, but restricts the breadth of application of a single FB build. 

Is something like that what you were thinking of Boz?

An "enter when you have any amount of ammo/pages" is to be avoided; it'd just be yet another Engineer kit: Pop into kit, toss out 5, pop out, repeat in 20 seconds. Degenerate gameplay, IMO.

Tomes would need to have fixed cooldowns on exit. Something like 40 seconds, regardless of how many pages you spent. You can always exit early.

Not all tomes need mobility, but the totes-offensive F1 and the swiftness-granting F2 I could see with some.

[draxynnic.3719]

44 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

You are ignoring the part of the conversation of "You aren't likely to get buffed in other content so long as the 'you bring heal, damage, CC, cleanse, stability, aegis, swiftness, etc. always forever baked in' is a fact". Why?
Also, PvE matters, and your elitism is disgusting.

PvE matters, yes, but there is a degree to which something being strong in open world because it provides a lot of support to allies isn't really a problem. The full-on godmode builds seem to be being targeted, but firebrand wasn't one of those, and people generally don't get kicked out of an open world meta to make room for a firebrand (or any other profession). Open world/solo balance shouldn't be ignored, regardless of what some people seem to think, but that's generally more about bringing up the specialisations that are underperforming so much they're just not fun to play, and while there is a threshold of being OP in open world, "provides a lot of boons to allies" is generally not considered to be part of that metric when playing open world or solo. Few people complain when they're doing something in open world and someone else with a lot of support shows up and starts pumping them full of boons, barrier, and/or healing.

If we take "raids" as shorthand for "raid-like content" including strikes, fractals, and DRMs, then... well, my experience in 10-man content had always been that people were generally open to having something else that performed the same role. When I pointed this out in other discussions, the response to justify nerfing firebrand was "but fractals..." - or, to be more specific, the ability of cFB or cQB to take advantage of exposed to deliver burst conditions. Something which I'd always said that it sounded like the real problem was the way exposed worked, and sure enough, ArenaNet has now changed exposed.

'Course, it's going to be a while because you'll see much change in fractal group compositions because people who only have one or two characters kitted out for fractals are probably going to take time making the investments to try something else.

[The Boz.2038]

5 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

he full-on godmode builds seem to be being targeted, but firebrand wasn't one of those

Yeah, I think this puts into perspective the rest of your thoughts on the matter.

[Dadnir.5038]

Let's be realist, there is no way they would do such an heavy rework as this. At most they would block weaponswap while in combat (Which they probably won't anyway).

[draxynnic.3719]

21 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Yeah, I think this puts into perspective the rest of your thoughts on the matter.

Way to pick out one line that was largely pointing out what seemed to be ArenaNet's policy regarding open world stuff.

Firebrand remained relatively squishy in open world compared to the likes of celestial/trailblazer revenant or scourge with tormenting runes. Those things could survive virtually anything while still doing a solid proportion of the damage that glass cannon builds. Firebrand certainly isn't bad in open world by any means, but it isn't broken, and in fact there are a lot of things that are probably stronger. Unless you would like to explain how giving out a lot of boons to a group while solo makes something OP?

The context towards complaints about firebrand being too good has always been in group PvE, and until scrappers got quickness, half the people pushing that narrative were chrono mains who wanted their monopoly back. Exposed changes certainly shot firebrand up, but that was a problem specifically with the mechanics of that environment, and that's been addressed directly. You're still going to want quickness in a group, so the target is for the alternative quickness sources to be competitive.

In WvW, the big problem is that stability is essential and ArenaNet didn't provide more sources of stability. Based on the last balancing, they do seem to be trying to bring the stability granters into line by nerfing them, but if they want to make more room for other professions in zergs, they need to give group stability access to more professions. (WardWell of Stability for elementalists when, ArenaNet? Now, that would have been a more engaging utility line for Catalysts than Stances 2.0!)

[The Boz.2038]

TIL Firebrand can't use Trailblazer gear to make content trivial.
It's entirely irrelevant to the discussion here, but hey. Learn something new every day.

[draxynnic.3719]

3 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

TIL Firebrand can't use Trailblazer gear to make content trivial.
It's entirely irrelevant to the discussion here, but hey. Learn something new every day.

No more than any other condi build can, and quite a bit less than some. Also, what content are you talking about? There's regions of the open world that you can trivialise with a willbender in berserker's gear, but I wouldn't take either into a difficult group event alone.

Of course, if you think it's that irrelevant, you could actually address where I have talked about group content. Assuming, of course, you're not just here to beat the 'gut firebrand' drum because you know it'll get a response.

[Xaylin.1860]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Does this completely match what firebrand tomes can do, in isolation? Probably not. But you also have to remember that core virtues aren't competing with firebrand on their own. You have to consider the entire package, including core guardian being able to take a third core traitline.

Just my opinion, but I think it is a reasonable assumption that overall FB are ahead of many specs simply due to the diversity Tomes provide and, of course, Quickness. Quickness is there to stay. But I think one can adjust Tomes.

 

It is a valid statement that 2/3 Tomes are a DPS loss. But that is no surprise and is absolutely no valid arguement against their power. Because you will have access when you need and will leave them be if you don't.

 

At launchTomes did so much. You could heal even as a DPS. You had Aegis and Stab en masse and so on. Of course, they were nerfed. But that's exactly my point: Tomes will never be powerful (again) as long as they can be all accessed within one build. I want them to have meaningful skills. And I want them to matter and not only be spammend on CD. And still, there are skills that are universally useful like an area pull or projectile hate (which by the way reduces the worth of skills like Wall of Reflection - on EVERY FB).

 

To reiterate in short: I want access to be limited to one Tome but each Tome to be buffed. I'm not asking for one Tome and done. If it was as some people say, that some Tomes don't even matter depending on your build: Why not change it to one Tome then and benefit from potential buffs for Tome skills?

 

Regarding cooldowns and other traits: Personally, I just dont perceive Tome CDs as so restricting that I see them as an issue. Still, CDs can always be adjusted. Plus, at least F1 and F3 CD can be reduced by active gameplay and I really would like to see more play of the F3 one... don't even remember the name. This aside, it is perfectly fine that certain traits work better on specific specs. You have mentioned Indomitable Courage. Now imagine only having 1 Tome but still having classic F3 with Stunbreak. It would work. It might actually be fun. And it could also feel more rewarding and impactful to use Tome skills.

 

And again, because of all the frowny faces: I don't think the OP and other people want FB to die in a pit. FB is my favorite Guardian espec but I lost interest due to how much Tomes were nerfed. I want them to be great again. But for that FB will probably have to give up something else.

[Hogwarts Zebra.8597]

4 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I don't think the OP and other people want FB to die in a pit

Ah, your naivety is refreshing. I fear it will not last through the next patch. 

[Valisha.8650]

I approve, nerf firebrand

[oscuro.9720]

12 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

An "enter when you have any amount of ammo/pages" is to be avoided; it'd just be yet another Engineer kit: Pop into kit, toss out 5, pop out, repeat in 20 seconds. Degenerate gameplay, IMO.

Tomes would need to have fixed cooldowns on exit. Something like 40 seconds, regardless of how many pages you spent. You can always exit early.

Not all tomes need mobility, but the totes-offensive F1 and the swiftness-granting F2 I could see with some.

If you are going to parse down to 1 kit, 40 seconds is far too long of a cool down. If you want a cool down, it should be in line with other weapon-bar changing cool downs, so 8-10 seconds.
 

[Buran.3796]

On 4/4/2022 at 11:29 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

What if we do some creative trait-making so that Firebrand base loadout is somewhat lessened, but the entire set becomes easier to manage and balance?
Firebrand loses the whole three tomes thing. The first trait they pick expands one of their virtues into a tome; the other virtues stay as they are.
 

   But Firebrand already gave up all his damage and healing/sustain in PvP so became utterly unplayable in that game mode...  We already paid the price of the Mirage (sort of: you still see some Mirages in PvP from time to time, which doesn't happens with Firebrand at all).

   Which other game modes would you like erase the FB from to consider it as "balanced"? You want to remove FB from WvW or maybe from PvE? 

[ZICA.7341]

FB is pathetic in WvW roaming and duels. Is a dead elite in PvP. Lets just kick this profession from PVE and WvW zergs. Why not? 

[Vidit.7108]

Between like 2019-2020 I was in favor of putting all the tomes on a shared cooldown, arena net since then has gone a different direction and I don't think it's necessary anymore.

Only talking about PvE. Tomes don't currently behave like toolkits or alternative weapon load outs. Engy can swap to a tool kit whenever it wants to with no cooldown. Bladesworn gets a normal weapon cooldown. Tomes are more like old Guardian elite skill kits and as such they have a massive cooldown. When someone else is my healbrand half the time they never even use F2 and F3, especially if they're a hybrid they're spending more time doing damage than supporting. Build sites like Metabattle and Snowcrows don't even tell healbrands to run virtues so a lot of healbrands are waiting 75 seconds before alacrity to get tome 3 back. Regardless of how many pages you use those tomes are gone when they're closed. Knowing when to make the best use of it takes experience it's not a simple thing every firebrand can or does do, it's a pleasant surprise whenever a condi firebrand decides to help me out with reflects or stability. So I don't really see that as much of an issue that guardian has access to those skills. 

I can't see at all how taking a weapon away in exchange for even more tome affects would be justified. They don't currently last all that long, if they all came off cooldown faster and had more effects and worked like weapon skills that doesn't sound like it's balanced any better then it is now. It sounds like adding complexity to something that doesn't need to be more complicated for dubious benefits, I guess that would satisfy all those ele mains that say the class is too easy. As for OW worries, idk what to tell you, if you're worried about people soloing champs on firebrand I've been doing that as a daredevil for years.

I don't think Firebrand needs any more nerfs, they need to buff some other healers to get them to where Mechanist and Firebrand are. 

[The Boz.2038]

On 4/5/2022 at 9:33 PM, oscuro.9720 said:

If you are going to parse down to 1 kit, 40 seconds is far too long of a cool down. If you want a cool down, it should be in line with other weapon-bar changing cool downs, so 8-10 seconds.
 

Ele kits have an even longer cooldown. Eles and engies don't get weapon swap. Other bar-changers generate resources to enter the second bar, which is an even more deep rework.

Edited April 7, 2022 by The Boz.2038
Ranger != engie

[The Boz.2038]

6 hours ago, Vidit.7108 said:

I don't think Firebrand needs any more nerfs, they need to buff some other healers to get them to where Mechanist and Firebrand are. 

Firebrand has built-in three addional skill bars full of the best effects in the game: aegis, cleanse, stability, projectile reflect, block, heal, swiftness, protection... All firebrands have this, always, forever, whenever they may need it. There are no knobs and dials to turn with the other classes that can allow for this sheer breadth of permanent, always available options that any Firebrand always brings with them. Hell, they tried to do it with Mechanist, and the sheer amount of how many things Crisis Zone needs to do in order to match half a Firebrand's output is insane. People, mostly Firebrands, still whine at how "overpowered" the skill is, even though it comes at a huge cost in damage because, you guessed it, it's an *optional trait*. Want to provide all the insane stuff any Firebrand gets for free and has always available to them at any time, in any build? Better sacrifice your good stuff!
But sure. Buff the other classes. Make entering water attunement pulse protection, regen, and vigor. That'll go over well.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 4/5/2022 at 9:05 PM, Xaylin.1860 said:

Just my opinion, but I think it is a reasonable assumption that overall FB are ahead of many specs simply due to the diversity Tomes provide and, of course, Quickness. Quickness is there to stay. But I think one can adjust Tomes.

 

It is a valid statement that 2/3 Tomes are a DPS loss. But that is no surprise and is absolutely no valid arguement against their power. Because you will have access when you need and will leave them be if you don't.

 

At launchTomes did so much. You could heal even as a DPS. You had Aegis and Stab en masse and so on. Of course, they were nerfed. But that's exactly my point: Tomes will never be powerful (again) as long as they can be all accessed within one build. I want them to have meaningful skills. And I want them to matter and not only be spammend on CD. And still, there are skills that are universally useful like an area pull or projectile hate (which by the way reduces the worth of skills like Wall of Reflection - on EVERY FB).

 

To reiterate in short: I want access to be limited to one Tome but each Tome to be buffed. I'm not asking for one Tome and done. If it was as some people say, that some Tomes don't even matter depending on your build: Why not change it to one Tome then and benefit from potential buffs for Tome skills?

 

Regarding cooldowns and other traits: Personally, I just dont perceive Tome CDs as so restricting that I see them as an issue. Still, CDs can always be adjusted. Plus, at least F1 and F3 CD can be reduced by active gameplay and I really would like to see more play of the F3 one... don't even remember the name. This aside, it is perfectly fine that certain traits work better on specific specs. You have mentioned Indomitable Courage. Now imagine only having 1 Tome but still having classic F3 with Stunbreak. It would work. It might actually be fun. And it could also feel more rewarding and impactful to use Tome skills.

 

And again, because of all the frowny faces: I don't think the OP and other people want FB to die in a pit. FB is my favorite Guardian espec but I lost interest due to how much Tomes were nerfed. I want them to be great again. But for that FB will probably have to give up something else.

You'd get people just taking the tome that fits the role. DPS firebrands would just take Justice, and could end up stronger overall (if not simply overshadowed by condi willbender, that's a thing now). Healbrands would take Resolve and, if ToR was improved and healbrand had the core Justice and Courage virtues, it could well end up stronger. WvW firebrands would take Courage. Maybe every so often you'll get a PvE firebrand taking Courage specifically for the antiprojectile bubble, like revs taking Ventari.

Sure, you'd lose the "save the team" potential of a well-timed Courage or Resolve from the DPS firebrand or something like that, but that's not something that everyone will pull off every time. Ultimately, I think it'd make the specialisation as a whole less interesting, because instead of having adaptability that requires making active choices to use, you simply take the tome that pushes you further into the specialisation you've chosen, while retaining nice cheap (action economy is a thing) instant-action virtues for the things that you're not specialised in. The other tomes might just be there baked into your build to use if you need to, but it's still an active choice to recognise when you need temporarily drop your normal role to save the party (even if you don't have the stats to back up that tome), and to get benefit from it, you need to recognise when that's a trade you need to make. It's the sort of thing that I wish elementalist, for instance, actually could do (that was supposed to be what attunements were about in the prerelease marketing...).

 

Also, just as a point of information - the Tome of Courage bubble really doesn't replace Wall of Reflection unless it's a fairly specific timeframe that you need it for. You can keep it going for 25-40s, during which you're not doing much else, and after which you have a long recharge before you can do it again (unless you spend an elite on resetting it). Traited Wall of Reflection (and the trait doesn't really have a lot of competition if you're running Virtues anyway, unless you're looking for damage and realistically expect to be able to avoid having your aegis pop) is 50% uptime, a reasonably short recharge, and it allows you to continue using your weapons normally.

[The Boz.2038]

5 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You'd get people just taking the tome that fits the role

That's the goal right there, chief. Take your role tome. Have a toolset that fits your role, and not The Best Toolset In The Game Permanently Built In For Free Right Into The Chassis. 

Then, once you have known role-tome combos, maybe then can ANet beef some up in PvP, if needed.

 

Also, lol at "tome reflect's not that strong, it's only 50% uptime". Only a golden child that touched no other profession in the game can say that.

Edited April 6, 2022 by The Boz.2038

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

6 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Ele kits have an even longer cooldown. Eles and rangers don't get weapon swap. Other bar-changers generate resources to enter the second bar, which is an even more deep rework.

Ele kits are utility skills. FB Tomes are class mechanic, like Ele Attunements.

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Ele kits are utility skills. FB Tomes are class mechanic, like Ele Attunements.

Okay, and?
Would you like me to list all the Ele weapon skills that provide resistance, or stability, or protection, or aegis? Sure, I can, here.

There, end of list.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

57 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Okay, and?
Would you like me to list all the Ele weapon skills that provide resistance, or stability, or protection, or aegis? Sure, I can, here.

There, end of list.

You compared a class mechanic to a utility skill and got corrected that they are not the same kind of skill, thus can't be compared. Ele's class mechanic are the attunements, that can be swapped every 10 seconds, Tomes can be used every 30/45/70 seconds. 
Resistance also isn't a common boon on Guard. Tome 3(70s CD) page 4(10s CD) and Save Yourselves(50s CD). 

I guess you didn't read the patch notes when FB's ability to spam Aegis got gutted. Tome 3 page 5 and Tome 3 equip. Rest are core Guard skills, like Advance(30s recharge), Mace 3(15s CD) and Shield 4(20s CD).

Both Ele and Guard have pretty easy job applying Protection as well.

Stability is the only boon Guard has easy time with, SYG is the most common skill, as it's "only" 30s, Hallowed Ground is 45, Elite Mantra is very situational and anything with Tome 3 is a long CD.

[Trejgon.9367]

10 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Eles and rangers don't get weapon swap.

No, eles only get 3 of them instead.

(elemental attunements shuffling all 5 of weapon skills between 4 variations per weapon is why they don't get normal in-combat weapon swap)

Unless I misread what you were trying to say there, and you did not mean a "weapon-swap-like" skill, but literal weapon swap.

In which case I can assure you that rangers definitelly do have that one. At least Core rangers, druids, and soulbeasts, never heard of untamed disabling one, but I paid so little attention to that espec that I wouldn't know if it did.

[Fueki.4753]

39 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

In which case I can assure you that rangers definitelly do have that one. At least Core rangers, druids, and soulbeasts, never heard of untamed disabling one, but I paid so little attention to that espec that I wouldn't know if it did.

I assume The Boz meant Engineer, not Ranger.

[Kulvar.1239]

On 4/4/2022 at 11:29 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

Firebrand gets to add three whole skill bars to their loadout, along with two weapons, while retaining passives. It's a straight-up buff in power and utility, at ~no cost.
Bladesworn was released recently. It's a warrior that gets two additional skillbars, but loses weapon swap, and the utility provided is pretty bad, honestly.

 

The passives are only kept if you take the trait that keep them up.

The tomes have 30s / 50s / 75s base cooldown.
What's the cooldown on engineer kits, elementalist attunements, necromancer shroud, or bladesworn weapons ?