Alternative path for PVE Legendary Armor

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

No it's not.
It literally is not.
Asking relevant questions about an idea or a system is literally the opposite of shutting down discussion.

Also, look up the definition of the term "strawman". You'll find my argument doesn't fit.

 

Hey hey mon ami , who was the one that said  :

On 4/13/2022 at 3:38 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

All of the "PvE, but not raid" legendary armor "suggestions" so far have been flat out gimmes. Every single one, just "If I spend six months in PvE, gimme".
And every time a limitation or requirement is pointed out, the same "but that only applies to the minority" reply.

Sure. Open world PvE legendary armor. Each piece requires fifty successful completions of the Battle for the Jade Sea. Have fun doing the DE meta daily!

inb4 "but that's only for people who enjoy the DE meta!"

[The Boz.2038]

I call that an accurate recounting of the "pro" voices in the then-fifteen pages of discussion, while being an invitation to reiterate and clarify your stances.
Invitation was declined, lol. 

[Rinagal.9235]

1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

No it's not.

I like how many people here think if they will just say "No, it's not", it will somehow be a valid argument in discussion while cutting out half of opponents post to conviniently ignore all inconvinient parts of it.

 

5 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Also, look up the definition of the term "strawman". You'll find my argument doesn't fit.

 It was exactly what i did, before i wrote my post.

 

"A straw man argument is a misrepresentation of an opinion or viewpoint, designed to be as easy as possible to refute. Just as a person made of straw would be easier to fight with than a real human, a straw man argument is easy to knock to the ground."

 

You generalised some group of people, took that "gimme" from someone without even quoting who said it, while ignoring any opinion that differed from it, and then started to criticise this "gimme" because it is easy.

[blp.3489]

9 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Also, look up the definition of the term "strawman". You'll find my argument doesn't fit.

 

Quote

A straw man argument is a misrepresentation of an opinion or viewpoint, designed to be as easy as possible to refute.

 

Quote

Still in the "as easy as WvW, as fast as raids" ballpark.

 

That people want "as easy as WvW, as fast as raids" is a misrepresentation.  People have repeatedly stated that they are willing to do as much OW grinding as WvW players have to do to get the armor.  This is exactly a straw man argument.

[The Boz.2038]

So, me not quoting fifteen pages of discussion, but trying to summarize is a strawman?
Brilliant deduction, right there.

[SlayerXX.7138]

1 hour ago, blp.3489 said:

That people want "as easy as WvW, as fast as raids" is a misrepresentation.  People have repeatedly stated that they are willing to do as much OW grinding as WvW players have to do to get the armor.  This is exactly a straw man argument.

People apparently want Legendary armor on top of keeping there regular Rewards, basically doubling there current rewards. Which could be defined as "give me". As such not a misrepresentation.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Albi.7250

[blp.3489]

11 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

While keeping there regular Rewards, basically doubling there current rewards. Which could be defined as "give me". As such not a misrepresentation.

So if we had a jade bot module that ate all your rewards and gave you skirmish claim tickets that would satisfy you?

How about a vendor with prices that factor in the relative rewards?

Edited April 14, 2022 by blp.3489
Added a second alternative

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Albi.7250 said:

Haha. Funny you mention that. The 300 hours are calculated with your team winning All the time and commitment Bonus. So the actual time investment is even bigger.

Actually, no, those are calculated with the standard settings for wiki calculator (which assumes equal distribution of wins, losses and mid pf the pack placement). Although it does include +1 pip from commintment bonus.

1 hour ago, Albi.7250 said:

I did explain how it does factor in. Multiple times. I literally did it spell it out. And I do it again. The current work you have to do to get ONLY nothing else ONLY Legendary armor is  300 hour low effort or 201 hours high effort. You want that while keeping all your regular rewards. Basically doubling your Rewards you get from playing the game mode you are enjoying. And that is indeed unfair.

Actually, going for legendary armor does not disable all the other rewards from WvW you'd normally get. Sure, they may be low, and i see no problem whatsoever in you asking for increased rewards in WvW, but poor reward factor in that mode is a completely separate problem. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Nevertheless, the end truth is that WvW players, in order to pursue legendary armor, do not need to play any differently than they usually would. As such, asking PvE players to have to play completely differently than they usually would, and calling it a fair equivalent has nothing to do with fairness. It's just pushing your issues you have about the mode you like on other players so they can feel as bad about their mode as you do about yours.

Spreading misery around is never a good idea. It just makes everything even worse.

[SlayerXX.7138]

6 minutes ago, blp.3489 said:

So if we had a jade bot module that ate all your rewards and gave you skirmish claim tickets that would satisfy you?

Sure. Depends on the numbers of course. Everything that get us away from the name calling. Personally I would prefer something like  Stat-swabable rune-changing exotic gear as you could highly reduce the requirement for that. And make it accessibly for much bigger part for the player base. But jade bot is fine. Numbers are gonna matter. When Legendary armor would cost 1 PvP match we wouldn't have the discussion in the first place.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Sure. Depends on the numbers of course. Everything that get us away from the name calling. Personally I would prefer something like  Stat-swabable rune-changing exotic gear as you could highly reduce the requirement for that. And make it accessibly for much bigger part for the player base. But jade bot is fine. Numbers are gonna matter. When Legendary armor would cost 1 PvP match we wouldn't have the discussion in the first place.

But theses discussions boiled down to "buy Raid runs" , or "go in easy WvW".

We didnt have time to come in a mutual understanding.

Now we must blame the company , for  not implanting it

 

 

>_>

Edited April 14, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Gibson.4036]

I find it mind boggling that “I’ve hated some of the things I’ve had to do” is justification that other people should have to do stuff they don’t like.

In an entertainment.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[SlayerXX.7138]

6 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Actually, no, those are calculated with the standard settings for wiki calculator (which assumes equal distribution of wins, losses and mid pf the pack placement). Although it does include +1 pip from commintment bonus.

Okay lets do this.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_armor: 7 880  Claim tickets(CL) for the complete armor.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skirmish_reward_track Middel rank for your World: 5. Personal Bronze rank 2. Commitment: 1

Makes 8 Pip a tick(5 minutes)  or 96Pips per hour if you play each week. There is an extra tick every 2 hours.

makes 100 Pip per hour
I Hope you don't suggest the commander Tag(300g investment) or the Silver rank(HUGE time investment, likely years for a casual) the whole argument about WvW was about low effort.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skirmish_reward_track 1440 pips for 365 Claim tickets

365 CT = 1440 Pips / 100 Pips Per hour

365 CT = 14 hours                                                                           ( more then 14 hours but let round down)

 

For the set 7880 Claim tickets are needed:

 

Hours needed = 7880 / 365 *14 = 302.24 Hours

 

 

Also I am interested in these others rewards you mentioned WvW player have after these 300 hours and there Legendary Armor. As far as I know there aren't any.

[SlayerXX.7138]

2 minutes ago, Rinagal.9235 said:

If you see defending your personal interests and social justice as same term, then sure. Justice is one of arguments to defend the idea of OW legendary armor, not the purpose.

 

No idea what are you talking about, i have 3 legendary armor sets, 2 from raids and one from WvW. Am i allowed to whine now?

There argument was it is unfair they don't have a way to get legendary Armor.  So Personal interest is your argument? But you have Legendary armor? So you have no personal interest in that Matter. Which means you have no argument at all. So you are here to argument for the pro OW armor side by contradiction there Main Point. 

[blp.3489]

39 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Sure. Depends on the numbers of course. Everything that get us away from the name calling. Personally I would prefer something like  Stat-swabable rune-changing exotic gear as you could highly reduce the requirement for that. And make it accessibly for much bigger part for the player base. But jade bot is fine. Numbers are gonna matter. When Legendary armor would cost 1 PvP match we wouldn't have the discussion in the first place.

Okay, that's a start.  I can foresee some problems with eating all your rewards, such as interfering with collection achievements, so perhaps we can have it consume certain rewards, such as unidentified gear?  Blue and green unidentified gear is too common, how about just rare unidentified gear.  Every time you get a rare unidentified gear it gets converted into a skirmish claim ticket, and there are a maximum number of conversions per week.  Honestly I don't know the drop rates well enough to know if that is a good ratio, if it seems off perhaps people can suggest an alternative.

I realize that I jumped from eating all of your rewards to just eating some, but you are also only getting claim tickets for the rewards that are being consumed. 

Edit: using rare unidentified has the added benefit that you don't get those for really trivial content.

15 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

Also I am interested in these others rewards you mentioned WvW player have after these 300 hours and there Legendary Armor. As far as I know there aren't any.

Thanks for laying out the numbers, that makes things more concrete.  I may be missing something but in addition to claim tickets WvW players are getting reward track rewards.

Edited April 14, 2022 by blp.3489

[SlayerXX.7138]

34 minutes ago, blp.3489 said:

Thanks for laying out the numbers, that makes things more concrete.  I may be missing something but in addition to claim tickets WvW players are getting reward track rewards.

Yes they do. And in addition to the claim tickets Legendary amour cost materials. As The reward track is one of the only sources in WvW to get materials the Legendary armor eats up all reward track gains in these 300 hours and hungers for more.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Reward_Track 8H 35 mins to complete 1 Track(without boosters). 302 Hours grind.
302/8.5 = gives 36 Reward track Completion. (rounded up) Exact Number would take a lot of effort. But really rough estimation with Gold value of reward tracks: You get about 60% of the materials if you keep every materials and completely liquidize the Stuff of the Reward track to buy more materials. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Rinagal.9235]

36 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

There argument was it is unfair they don't have a way to get legendary Armor.  So Personal interest is your argument? But you have Legendary armor?

Argument is a tool to convince opposite side of discussion, not the purpose itself. Main point is "we want to be able to get legendary armor in game mode we enjoy", not the "we want to fix every injustice in this game". Defend our personal interest is the purpose we try to achieve, justice is one of tools we use for it. Because of it WvW rewards topic isn't a point of disscucion, but as i said, i doubt anyone from those who asks for OW legendary armor oppose idea of improving WvW rewards or would use it for extortion.

 

36 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

So you have no personal interest in that Matter. Which means you have no argument at all. So you are here to argument for the pro OW armor side by contradiction there Main Point. 

 

Being able to get legendary armor in game mode i like is totaly my personal interest, as it is a sign of some game design philosophies switching in directions that appeal me. Though, i don't plan to craft it, it's true, as i have more rational uses for my resources. However i don't want other players like me to go through raids and WvW like i did in order to get legendary armor, as i didn't enjoy my time there. And i believe forcing players into content they don't enjoy isn't a good thing.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Rinagal.9235

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

Yes they do. And in addition to the claim tickets Legendary amour cost materials. As The reward track is one of the only sources in WvW to get materials. 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Reward_Track 8H 35 mins to complete 1 Track(without boosters). 302 Hours grind.
302/8.5 = gives 36 Reward track Completion. (rounded up) Exact Number would take a lot of effort. But really rough estimating  with Gold value of reward track: You get about 60% of the materials if you keep every materials and completely liquidize the Stuff of the Reward track to buy more materials. 

How much money people waste(not doing rizzewood)  for doing the Aurora ?

Because i remember , when i used the Return to "get the Skyscale+ Rolling ball" , i wasted 2 days , or something ?

So i lost something 6+6 runs x30 gold =>350ish gold ?

 

Don't start me on i must "feed" the dragon ...

And i did't even marry it..

Edited April 14, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

22 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

How much money people waste(not doing rizzewood)  for doing the Aurora ?

Because i remember , when i used the Return to "get the Skyscale+ Rolling ball" , i wasted 2 days , or something ?

So i lost something 6+6 runs x30 gold =>350ish gold ?

 

Don't start me on i must "feed" the dragon ...

And i did't even marry it..

Not everything is about gold though.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Albi.7250 said:

Hours needed = 7880 / 365 *14 = 302.24 Hours

Yes. That's close to what the calculator on the wiki pages has shown for me as well. For the non-WvW players, that is. Increase the player rank, and the hours needed go down. For diamond players it will be 200 hours. For max rank it will be 180 hours. And that's without including potential pips from commanding, which at least some of the WvW veterans will get.

 

1 hour ago, Albi.7250 said:

Also I am interested in these others rewards you mentioned WvW player have after these 300 hours and there Legendary Armor. As far as I know there aren't any.

While i know the rewards are not so great, but do you claim you don't get, for example, progress on WvW reward tracks, when going after armor? I find that hard to believe, because it surely works for me.

Yes, WvW rewards are at very low level, i agree with that - but a claim that going for legendary armor disables them is completely untrue.

Legendary armor progression is a completely passive thing in WvW, that happens regardless of what you do, how you play and whether you're interested in it or not. Do not try to claim it is otherwise - many of us do play WvW enough to realize that you're misrepresenting the situation.

[SlayerXX.7138]

37 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. That's close to what the calculator on the wiki pages has shown for me as well. For the non-WvW players, that is. Increase the player rank, and the hours needed go down. For diamond players it will be 200 hours. For max rank it will be 180 hours. And that's without including potential pips from commanding, which at least some of the WvW veterans will get.

Please don't fudge numbers. Commander tag comes with a 300g price tag and a big portion of responsibility. I did already use the Bronze ranks(which needs more then enough time to achieve. Pls inform yourself about what a Diamond rank is(a multiple year journey). If you know what it is you should know not to include it. Yes if you are the most dedicated player in the game it speed things up. But we were talking about how low effort WvW is. 

 

37 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

While i know the rewards are not so great, but do you claim you don't get, for example, progress on WvW reward tracks, when going after armor? I find that hard to believe, because it surely works for me.

Yes, WvW rewards are at very low level, i agree with that - but a claim that going for legendary armor disables them is completely untrue

Probably cause off your Big Open world rewards you don't notice. 302 Hours of WvW reward track give you 60% of the Materials you need for the Armor. Only if you liquidize all non material rewards to buy more materials. The rough estimation is already posted.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,
Just a reminder to keep it civil and avoid attacking each other.
Regards.

[SlayerXX.7138]

4 hours ago, blp.3489 said:

So if we had a jade bot module that ate all your rewards and gave you skirmish claim tickets that would satisfy you?

How about a vendor with prices that factor in the relative rewards?

Or any other form of currency to buy Legendary armor yes. Doesnt have to be claim tickets. I tried to find something but right now there is no pretext for getting ascended gear with open world currency. Which would help with the comparison as you could compare the price of ascended gear from open world with the price of ascended gear in PvP and WvW. Only point of reference is an aqua breather head gear(ascended head gear that costs 6k unbound magic and 500 Winterberries). That would set the cost of a precursor round 6k unbound magic and 500 Winterberry's(more for a coat). You probably would need to introduce some 3rd "time gated" currency to make a comparison to existing Legendary gear and ensure Anet actually implements it. Lets say Jumping coins(its an example could be something else don't do much OW Stuff). You gain 1 per week per puzzle. If you are the jumping god you get them together in some weeks if you have one arm you press the Mesmer Portal 7 times a week and slowly build up.  Lets say A mystic forge recipe for open world armor would look something like.

 

1. Gift of exploration
2. Gift of Open world Power 
   1. 50 Jump coins
   2. Eldritch Scroll
   3. 50 obsidian shards
   4. Cube of Stabilized Dark Energy
3. Gift of Open World Dedication
   1. 35 Jump coins
   2. Glob of Condensed Spirit Energy
   3. Glob of Berries(1200Berries)
   4. Star of unbound magic(24k unbound magic)
4. Precursor

Unbound magic and Berries are used cause Breather is the only thing I have to compare.  But Open world legendary armor should look something like that, obviously with berries and unbound magic replaced with more up to date currency of equal value. So What that would mean in jade bot time I honestly cant know(or bother to calculate). But if i had to guess I would say it would take years to get with a jade bot alone.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Fuchslein.8639]

3 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I find it mind boggling that “I’ve hated some of the things I’ve had to do” is justification that other people should have to do stuff they don’t like.

In an entertainment.

Just one question.

How would you implement it financially and technically so that everyone could earn everything they wanted without it becoming boring and unfair?

[blp.3489]

Looking at the recipe for WvW legendary armor there are only a few things that are WvW specific:

- Memories of Battle

- Gift of Battle

- Skirmish Claim Tickets

- Certificate of Honor

- Certificate of Heroics

So my inclination would be to try to find OW equivalents.

Memories of Battle can be bought on the Trading Post so just leave those as is, if anything it should drive there price up which would benefit wvw players that sell them.

Certificate of Heroics is bought for 500 Testimonies of Heroics, which are interchangeable with Hero's points.  Maybe just award Testimonies of Heroics for repeating repeatable Hero Point Challenges?  Maybe only get one testimony per repeated challenge?  Doing 500 Hero points is certainly more onerous, I mean more heroic, than simply leveling up in wvw.

Badges of Honor are awarded when you kill NPCs in WvW (also players but that isn't applicable in OW) with a table for how many you get depending on the level of the NPC you kill.  That translates very directly, all you need is a mechanism to substitute the Badge of Honor for what reward you would otherwise obtain.

Gift of Battle although some would prefer otherwise I'm fine with needing to earn it in WvW

So it seems Skirmish Claim Tickets are the only item that isn't easily translatable.  I've got other commitments so I'll try to address that later.

 

 

[Nakasz.5471]

I think people asking for this didn't realize that open world already has 2 trinkets, 1 amulet and ALL precursor collections tied to this game mode.

Another point, I noticed that the collection suggestions for this armor don't even mention raid, strikes or even fractal. So I wonder, why do you want legendary armor? The QoL that the armor gives you is precisely designed for this type of content.

I agree with the idea of another legendary armor in pve, however the collection should be challenging, including at least cm strikes or cm fractals.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Nakasz.5471