Need more clarity around 60% success rate in DE meta

[Cuks.8241]

13 hours ago, Zauriel Mooncat.4968 said:

There was a group 2 days a go that was forcing the group to completely avoid the tail and we made it with 4 minutes to spare (I dont know if this is or was an exploit or not?)

 

If you have a few good players you know you can rely on, you can just send those few to kill the tail and the rest can just stay on the head. And you avoid everyone running around getting stuck in bubbles all over the place.

[Elden Arnaas.4870]

re: Skipping the tail - The most organized/successful commander I've run with(the 2 successes out of my 5 attempts) has us skip the tail phase. I believe that he's doing what Cuks just mentioned - sending people he knows he can rely on to take care of the tail. Because on those runs, the number of bubbles was not excessive.

In my admittedly very few attempts, this has been the only commander that has skipped the tail, and the only commander I've had success with. But I don't think it's *really* skipping, because (I think) the commander is actually devoting a small sub-group to the tail, rather than pulling the whole squad out of position. He just tells the general squad to skip, and this is the cue for his special tail team to do the tail phase by themselves.

So based on what I think is actually happening, I don't think this is really an exploit. If they're actually skipping, it probably doesn't work in their favor. But if they're just having *most* of the squad avoid the tail, they really aren't actually "skipping" the tail phase.

Once again my experience with this meta is very limited. This may not actually be what's happening. But it has worked when I've seen it done, so I hope ANet doesn't try to "fix" it.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Elden Arnaas.4870
typo

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

16 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Are our standards for the average GW2 player really that low?

If distributing 2 different boons and doing DE is Raid content then a good half of the game is in the Raider category. Anet might as well fire up Raids again!

[Nakasz.5471]

5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If you think having 40% of your squad consist of support classes in Open World content is not too much organization, you haven't been playing OW too much.

I've always been an open world player, the only moment I stopped was when I went to make my raid set, after that, I started playing open world again.
I don't think it's weird to have 40% of your group as support, especially when you consider that support roles are becoming more and more common now. More specs can provide quickness/alacryty, and the trend (according to arenanet) is that more builds can provide these boons (like druid spirits and bs banners).

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

If distributing 2 different boons and doing DE is Raid content then a good half of the game is in the Raider category. Anet might as well fire up Raids again!

Instead of laser-focusing on hyperbole and taking the discussion off in unintended and absurd directions, why not just read between the lines?  Whether some uninformed person thinks this qualifies as literal "raid" content is irrelevant.  What matters is the level of organization required and whether or not that is reasonable.  That's the point of debate here.

For comparison, I can command a chak gerent squad without saying a word.  There might be a few things I could point out about it, but the mechanics are mostly straightforward and the bar is set low enough that there is huge carry potential for players who contribute little due to inexperience to simply make their way to my commander tag and participate.

The chances of that working out for the DE meta are very low.  I could bring a core of experienced players and rely on them to carry, but even then I probably need to have everyone show up well ahead of start time, build up the buff, divide them into appropriate subgroups, and do everything I can to provide instruction for the rest of the squad.

That's the difference we're talking about here.  We don't need to argue over whether that fits the literal definition of "raids".  I don't think it's necessarily unreasonable to have open world metas that require more organization.  It's not my preference and I certainly disagree with the time requirement for this meta.  I think if this were the model moving forward I would enjoy open world metas a lot less than I do. 

So I'm not surprised there's a lot of debate on this one, particularly with the meta initially being a requirement for personal progression, tuned to too high a level of difficulty, and full of bugs and RNG.  I think that represents a disconnect from the developers to their target audience and I hope they're learning from that.

[Zauriel Mooncat.4968]

5 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

If you have a few good players you know you can rely on, you can just send those few to kill the tail and the rest can just stay on the head. And you avoid everyone running around getting stuck in bubbles all over the place.

Oh no no no, it was complete evasion towards the tail, it was completely skipped every time it came up and we where all fully focused on damage towards the dragon. 

[Cuks.8241]

6 minutes ago, Zauriel Mooncat.4968 said:

Oh no no no, it was complete evasion towards the tail, it was completely skipped every time it came up and we where all fully focused on damage towards the dragon. 

Interesting. Was the tail up close to the phase transition? That would make sense, but that is case by case. 

You only need ~ 5 good players to get the tail and the strategy could be coordinated in advance. You can also have a Mesmer set up a portal so everything happens really fast. Is it possible you didn't notice it? Or you just powered through the debuff? 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Cuks.8241

[Zauriel Mooncat.4968]

40 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Interesting. Was the tail up close to the phase transition? That would make sense, but that is case by case. 

You only need ~ 5 good players to get the tail and the strategy could be coordinated in advance. Is it possible you didnt notice it? Or you just powered through the debuff? 

We very much just DPS it o.O the com even since the begining strictly said "In this Squad we completely ignore the tail, focus on dragon" he woule encoursge dps, quickness, might, and alac (I always go alac on meta as specter 10 ritualist 5 plaguedoctors)and we just fid the fight normal just completely avoiding tail and severely focusing on insta melting cc bars. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Zauriel Mooncat.4968
spelling errors

[Necrosian.1359]

Reading this i see people with 90%+ win rate and i wonder how they do it, when i am here sitting with my 2 or 3 wins out of 30+ attempts. At this point i have given up on this meta, it's far too unreliable and rewards are 💩.

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

I really hope Dragon's End is will be the standard for Open World events from here on out. 

Bugs aside (random bite sequences happening overly often for example so some people lose 1 minute to it, but others lose 3 minutes or more. Fight should be somewhat challenging, but it should be fair as well) should 100% be fixed, but other than that I am still of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with this meta.

 

Yes, it asks more of you than previous meta's, this is true. But it is not asking anything unfair or impossible:

 

What the meta asks of you personally:

 

Basic communication:

In order to succeed you will have to listen to the commander of your squad, especially if you are unsure what to do (in which case I do recommend that you tell people you are new to the meta right at the beginning, plenty of people are willing to explain things to you!).

 

Basic crowd control: 

When you see the big blue breakbar, use crowd control (cc) skills on it. This is a very basic combat functionality that has been in the game since the introduction of HoT in 2015 and has been a staple in PvE ever since. This means that most people have had at least 7 years to learn about this mechanic and what skills interact with it. But even if you did not, your commander should either explain this or provide you with a Legion Waystation for an EMP, reducing the cognitive load needed on your end to 'see blue bar -> press C'.

 

A build that does roughly 7k DPS: 

More is always welcome, but if the average of the DPS that people in a squad put out comes down to 7k DPS you have enough damage for a succesful clear. Plenty of benchmarks in this game for DPS classes currently exceed 40k. This means that to achieve 7k you are essentially asked to put out less than 20% of what is possible. In other words: You don't need a glass cannon raid or fractal build to reach this number. It would ofcourse help (any of the bleeding edge builds will do more than 7k just with auto-attacks when buffed), but it is not needed. Same goes for buffs like alacrity/quickness etc: It 100% helps, but if everyone did their part, you could finish the meta without it still. It just makes it smoother.

 

What in my opinion is not an argument: 

 

This meta takes way too much time: 

The time is roughly equal or less than the time you invest into a Dragon's Stand meta in HoT.  Yes it sucks that you are a full-time mom/dad work 80+ hours a week, but that does not mean you should get a win just for showing up right? Things should never become unable to fail, and being present should not mean you are entitled to success.

 

It is a raid in the open world and overly punishing: 

It asks very basic things of players, it is far from a raid. But you cannot just wing it in the anonimity of the squad, you have to do your part, everyone has to. That is something people are not used to, something we have seen in the past with for example Marionette. The fight is not unfair, but it does punish you if you are unwilling to prepare.

 

You need discord for this fight: 

No, you don't. You can 100% clear the fight without a discord community. Just because some people organise on discord does not mean it is a requirement, plenty of groups form and clear without.

 

I never see any groups forming: 

Well, what is stopping you from forming your own?

 

Anet is clearly trying to elevate the skill-level of the general community because even Anet is approaching the limit of how many world bosses they can design with unique mechanics that cannot ask much of people. 

If people as a whole at least managed to get the basics down, the door would open to a lot of new exciting design possibilities for Anet.

 

And don't forget that at times this expansion can feel like Anet tried to set you up with as much freebies as possible for this final meta:

 

Doing all 3 regions pre-events: +5% damage buff. 

10 stacks of DE contributator, 5 of which you get during the escorts: + 20% damage buff. 

Offensive and Defensive Jade buffs: + 150 offensive and defensive stats ánd boons. 

Jade bot core: a free 1-3k health for everyone depending on the core you have slotted in. 

Jade bot mastery that places a way point: directly back into the fight. 

Jade bot mastery that resurrects you: basically a free extra life. 

And on top:  Some of the most busted elite specs for both damage ánd support.

 

The meta is not going to change. 

So, if you fail a lot, try to change the thing that can be changed: You and your playstyle. Learn. Try. Or, if you feel it is not you, find a squad of people that is also inclined to do better.

 

Or, if you do not wish to do so, there is no shame in admitting the meta is not for you and just go play something else. There is so much content in the game, no reason to get so upset over a single completely optional meta event.

Edited April 24, 2022 by Wielder Of Magic.3950

[Naraphim.8073]

I've attempted the Dragon's End meta on a full map during peak hours 6 times and only one of them has succeeded. After 1-2 hrs of play on a map I find it disappointing for the event to consistently fail. Maybe other people also find it too hard to be so perfectly coordinated with their builds and theirs boons, and their dodges etc. I don't care what the actual cause is. I don't. I just don't want the meta to fail so often. It's holding up any achievement requiring access to the area called "Mother's Lament". I have some tolerance for frustration but not this much.

Moreover, the population of maps falls over time as new maps are released and players move on to the newer content, so the problems with this meta are only going to get worse with time.

[yann.1946]

On 4/23/2022 at 4:47 PM, Erise.5614 said:

Calling high win rates luck is completely valid when the success rate is 60/40. 

Not really, that would be the case if we would expect everyone to have that succes rate. But the fora already showed that that is not the case. (For example people who always join guildruns will have an higher winrate, and people joining last minute will have lower win rates.)

 

There also is a subtle difference between the average winrate of a player and the succesrate of a meta. We dont know if anet  counted leftover sharts who fail because nobdoy tries them for example.

On 4/23/2022 at 4:47 PM, Erise.5614 said:

Just like long loose streaks can be bad luck rather than being normal. 

See above.

On 4/23/2022 at 4:47 PM, Erise.5614 said:

The only way to avoid it is controlling participants and stacking the deck in your favor. Which we also know is possible. There are people and communities with far above 90% win rates. But as far as I can tell that's not part of the argument. 

As far as i see that absolutely part of the argument ( even if people are not aware they are doing it). If a player plays a dos support build well then there WR will be higher then average because they carry the group to some degree.

On 4/23/2022 at 4:47 PM, Erise.5614 said:

Disregarding the experiences of others because you had a different one is not an argument. And attacking their character based on that is just uncalled for. 

This is true, and probably the biggest problem with how the meta gets perceived. 

[yann.1946]

16 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Instead of laser-focusing on hyperbole and taking the discussion off in unintended and absurd directions, why not just read between the lines?  Whether some uninformed person thinks this qualifies as literal "raid" content is irrelevant.  What matters is the level of organization required and whether or not that is reasonable.  That's the point of debate here.

For comparison, I can command a chak gerent squad without saying a word.  There might be a few things I could point out about it, but the mechanics are mostly straightforward and the bar is set low enough that there is huge carry potential for players who contribute little due to inexperience to simply make their way to my commander tag and participate.

The chances of that working out for the DE meta are very low.  I could bring a core of experienced players and rely on them to carry, but even then I probably need to have everyone show up well ahead of start time, build up the buff, divide them into appropriate subgroups, and do everything I can to provide instruction for the rest of the squad.

That's the difference we're talking about here.  We don't need to argue over whether that fits the literal definition of "raids".  I don't think it's necessarily unreasonable to have open world metas that require more organization.  It's not my preference and I certainly disagree with the time requirement for this meta.  I think if this were the model moving forward I would enjoy open world metas a lot less than I do. 

So I'm not surprised there's a lot of debate on this one, particularly with the meta initially being a requirement for personal progression, tuned to too high a level of difficulty, and full of bugs and RNG.  I think that represents a disconnect from the developers to their target audience and I hope they're learning from that.

There is an important detail that you didnt bring up. Gerent has been experienced so much that almost everyone doing it knows how to do it. Comparing a recent meta with on which is 6-7 years old seems unreasonable to me.

 

DE will probably always require more organization, but how much is really difficult to predict atm.

[Astralporing.1957]

9 hours ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

I really hope Dragon's End is will be the standard for Open World events from here on out. 

So, you want a huge majority of GW2 players to get excluded from all future content. Duly noted.

Like i said before, that's going to end up really well for the game.[/sarcasm]

Edited April 25, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

16 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Instead of laser-focusing on hyperbole and taking the discussion off in unintended and absurd directions, why not just read between the lines?  Whether some uninformed person thinks this qualifies as literal "raid" content is irrelevant.  What matters is the level of organization required and whether or not that is reasonable.  That's the point of debate here.

For comparison, I can command a chak gerent squad without saying a word.  There might be a few things I could point out about it, but the mechanics are mostly straightforward and the bar is set low enough that there is huge carry potential for players who contribute little due to inexperience to simply make their way to my commander tag and participate.

The chances of that working out for the DE meta are very low.  I could bring a core of experienced players and rely on them to carry, but even then I probably need to have everyone show up well ahead of start time, build up the buff, divide them into appropriate subgroups, and do everything I can to provide instruction for the rest of the squad.

That's the difference we're talking about here.  We don't need to argue over whether that fits the literal definition of "raids".  I don't think it's necessarily unreasonable to have open world metas that require more organization.  It's not my preference and I certainly disagree with the time requirement for this meta.  I think if this were the model moving forward I would enjoy open world metas a lot less than I do. 

So I'm not surprised there's a lot of debate on this one, particularly with the meta initially being a requirement for personal progression, tuned to too high a level of difficulty, and full of bugs and RNG.  I think that represents a disconnect from the developers to their target audience and I hope they're learning from that.

If you read this thread you'll still see people saying DE is Raid content or it's like a Raid. That might have been sort of correct on release as it was difficult at that time. The "level of organization" needed is still nowhere near Raids or even T1 Fractals, 10-10 people doing a bit more than just dealing damage is not some high-end Raid-like requirement. 

In case of Gerent the Commanders are there to get people into the map. If you compared DE's requirements to Gerent then it's more, if you compare it to any other content with commanders it's absolutely minimal. The mechanics are simple in DE as well. You see CC bar you CC, you see red you stay out of it, jump shockwaves, not as difficult as you are trying to paint it. There are people being carried in every meta, whenever I command Gerent I see varying number of people doing barely anything and dying to everything.

God forbid there is something in open world that requires more effort than Tarir. As soon as something can't be beaten by smashing 1 "it's like a Raid". 

[Hesione.9412]

20 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

So, you want a huge majority of GW2 players to get excluded from all future content. Duly noted.

Like i said before, that's going to end up really well for the game.[/sarcasm]

There are total bad faith "arguments" in this thread. No-one is talking about just having players spam 1 and yet the counter to our points is basically "players shouldn't spam 1".

 

For people telling others they should organise the map themselves, I am seeing a distinct lack of these people (generally) organising the map themselves. Instead. they are self-selecting commanders with high success rates.

 

Plus there is an obvious disparity between a player being able to organise a map who is merely going 1111111.

 

The kitten fight would probably be much easier if one could see half the stuff that is over the ground. It's a poorly designed OW fight for a list of reasons.

[yann.1946]

On 4/24/2022 at 12:44 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Or rather the chart of success rates per percentage of population. To see how high percentage of players players is at 60% rate, how it's at 90+, and how it's at near zero. Or any value in between. I'd say this would be enlightening.

I agree, however with how bad people are with actually interpreting statistics it probably pretty dangerous for Anet to do. 

this thread is a good example of it, no matter where you fall on the argument you can see people misrepresent statistics to make wathever point they want.

[Gorem.8104]

16 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

There are total bad faith "arguments" in this thread. No-one is talking about just having players spam 1 and yet the counter to our points is basically "players shouldn't spam 1".

 

For people telling others they should organise the map themselves, I am seeing a distinct lack of these people (generally) organising the map themselves. Instead. they are self-selecting commanders with high success rates.

 

Plus there is an obvious disparity between a player being able to organise a map who is merely going 1111111.

 

The kitten fight would probably be much easier if one could see half the stuff that is over the ground. It's a poorly designed OW fight for a list of reasons.

Yeah that, I mean when I was doing DE meta back at launch before I finally got a win so that I could make sure I never ever do it ever again for the rest of my life, Every single time I never once saw people stand there and spam 1. Not once. Everyone was trying, people were listening, people were doing rotations, running to the table to get their EMP's back, doing mechanics. 
The real issue has always been that doing all that, doing the mechanics, is not enough to win. You also need good RNG and rely on a stacked group doing higher then average dps. Which was STILL not enough back at launch until many, many tiny nerfs. 

Add in, as you say, that the fact that its open world and there is 50 players worth of effects in the air and on the ground, dodging at the right time - especially accounting for lower latency - is something that is not going to be reliable 100% of the time. And yet still, when I was doing it, if anyone went down they were yelled at. Not seen that at other events.  

[yann.1946]

On 4/20/2022 at 10:02 AM, Malus.2184 said:

At the beginning of that post where I said that is was a case study? You most likely think that this is a valid argument and it only shows that you've no idea what you're talking about. This would normally mean little, however, you base your entire argument around the understanding of this, and since this is flawed, your argument is as well.

Honestly, i was trying to let it go for my own mental health, but math is one of these things i am pasionate about so i cant really.

 

I'll repeat, what do you think is the case study here. And what do you think you can conclude from it. 

 

This way there can be no confusion over what you meant and nothing got lost in the chain of comments.

[yann.1946]

41 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

There are total bad faith "arguments" in this thread. No-one is talking about just having players spam 1 and yet the counter to our points is basically "players shouldn't spam 1".

This is a problem with these polarizing topics in general. People having a lot of bad faith arguments in all directions. On top of arguments being made against speficic people and then othe people interpreting those as general statements.

41 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

For people telling others they should organise the map themselves, I am seeing a distinct lack of these people (generally) organising the map themselves. Instead. they are self-selecting commanders with high success rates.

People orginazing will always be a minority. I mostly have seen the "organize yourself" statement as a responce to the claim of gatekeeping. As making the point that nobody is actually locking acces to the meta hostage. 

Ofcourse that is not wht most people mean when they talk about gatekeeping, we might need a new word to describe the behaviour people complain about.

41 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

 

Plus there is an obvious disparity between a player being able to organise a map who is merely going 1111111.

True.

41 minutes ago, Hesione.9412 said:

The kitten fight would probably be much easier if one could see half the stuff that is over the ground. It's a poorly designed OW fight for a list of reasons.

This is something i would like to have a conversation about. Mostly to understand. While GW2 always is a little flashy, i personally have never had trouble seing things ones i did fights a few times so i know what to look out for. What do you think causes the discrepency in what we see?

[Astralporing.1957]

49 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

I agree, however with how bad people are with actually interpreting statistics it probably pretty dangerous for Anet to do. 

Well, more info certainly would not hurt after they made that first statement that can be spun whichever way anyone might want. That way at least we'd have had some context to it.

In short: sure, it's easy to badly implement statistics, but it's much easier to do so the more incomplete the data is. The more info you have, the more likely is for others to realize you're interpreting things wrong.

49 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

this thread is a good example of it, no matter where you fall on the argument you can see people misrepresent statistics to make wathever point they want.

That one information is not statistics. It's just enough info to sow disinformation, nothing more.

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

So, you want a huge majority of GW2 players to get excluded from all future content. Duly noted.

That is not what I said, put a stop to the bad faith arguments and lies please. 

As for that huge majority of yours: If the event has a 60% clear rate the majority of people actually gets included. 

So it says more about your own playstyle and the bubble you play in if your experience is 90% failure or something like that. 

I do not wish to exclude anyone, what I DO wish for,  is people finally getting the basics of this game down after so many years. 

Anet has tried to teach these things many times and in many different ways and encounters over the years. 

Perhaps not in the best possible way, but they tried. 

There comes a point where if you have tried long enough, but people continue to refuse learning, that you leave these people behind because they are starting to hold back everyone else.

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Wielder Of Magic.3950

[Gorem.8104]

1 minute ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

That is not what I said, put a stop to the bad faith arguments and lies please. 

As for that huge majority of yours: If the event has a 60% clear rate the majority of people actually gets included. 

So it says more about your own playstyle and the bubble you play in if your experience is 90% failure or something like that. 

I do not wish to exclude anyone, what I DO wish for,  is people finally getting the basics of this game down after so many years. 

Anet has tried to teach these things many times and in many different ways and encounters over the years. 

Perhaps not in the best possible way, but they tried. 

There comes a point where if you have tried long enough, but people continue to refuse learning, that you leave these people behind because they are starting to hold back everyone else.

 

 

Actually, saying 60% completion rate actually shows that the majority are not completing it outside of stacked groups and good RNG. As someone said before, would you trust a doctor that has a 40% chance to fail the operation and you don't make it? 

Its a number that literally means most of the player base can't do this fight unless carried. 

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

Then people should improve to the bare minimum level.  

Pretty much every game in existance demands more of your skill level in newer/later content when compared to older/beginner content.  

GW2 is not doing something weird or wrong here.  

And if people cannot do this unless carried, that is a problem, but not a problem of the meta being overly hard.  

Especially because in order to go from 'getting carried' to 'positively contributing towards succes'  you only need to make such a small investment.  

 

And comparing this to a doctor is a downright ridiculous comparison, nobody's life depends on you clearing an optional event or not. 

 

 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

If you read this thread you'll still see people saying DE is Raid content or it's like a Raid. That might have been sort of correct on release as it was difficult at that time. The "level of organization" needed is still nowhere near Raids or even T1 Fractals, 10-10 people doing a bit more than just dealing damage is not some high-end Raid-like requirement. 

In case of Gerent the Commanders are there to get people into the map. If you compared DE's requirements to Gerent then it's more, if you compare it to any other content with commanders it's absolutely minimal. The mechanics are simple in DE as well. You see CC bar you CC, you see red you stay out of it, jump shockwaves, not as difficult as you are trying to paint it. There are people being carried in every meta, whenever I command Gerent I see varying number of people doing barely anything and dying to everything.

God forbid there is something in open world that requires more effort than Tarir. As soon as something can't be beaten by smashing 1 "it's like a Raid". 

So, you think it's fine to have a meta that requires a significant amount of time and organization?  Cool.  I don't think that's an unreasonable position to take.  Like I said, I don't particularly care for it.  Spending 1-2 hours on an open world meta isn't enjoyable to me.  It's fine to have options for different preferences, but I hope they don't make this a habit.