This is silly.

[Zenith.7301]

@Refia Montes.3205 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Refia Montes.3205 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:A spec with no aoe or utility worth a kitten should be one of the top DPS specs by far, period.

Mirage has no cleave, nor burst, no CC outside a 180 sec cd moa unless you want to send your damage down the drain using signets, and it offers no group boons or damage aura.

People need to get a grip.

Not exactly, DPS should be toned down a bit, but not that low. As it stands Mirage is a pretty safe class due to having dodges in the rotation and being able to not lose DPS while dodging unlike other classes. It's also relatively not that squishy with a medium healthbar, able to provide Reflects in scenarios where it is needed, strong CC with the help of Moa. Jaunt may help in increasing dps, but the dps loss from it isn't that great.

Survivability is irrelevant in content where weavers have no issue surviving and condi daredevils has as many dodges and evade frames if not more and better group utility via really strong low cd cc bar damage.

Single target condition damage ramp up classes should be doing more damage than classes with frontloaded damage and cleaving capacity, cc, and utility, period.

As much as I want to agree with that statement at the end, keep in mind this thing is way over the top. I agree with that, just that currently it does need nerfs, as the dps it provides is much more than any class in the game, a 1-3k dps difference should be good enough, but nothing like 7k dps difference.

With that I can agree, unfortunately when I look at how they royally screwed up Scourge and gave it laughable bumps in fixes I don't really want any of these devs anywhere near balancing mirage.

Scourge lost 10k+ DPS and the change barely bumped it by 2k. Barrier is still worthless garbage in PvE and the boon corrupts are totally irrelevant in PvE content. They had the nerve to call scourge a support class LOL.

They were supposed to buff weaver sword and holosmith and instead they put out laughable tweaks that changed nothing about their standing, they're still terribly underpowered weapons in PvE.

I simply don't trust them with balancing PvE numbers consistently and effectively. Everytime a class ends up well or overperforming it has been by accident while others like power necro and power ranger languish for years upon end. ele's ranged+aoe+support weapon, staff, is considerably outDPS'ing the melee weapons since they nerfed fresh air dagger/warhorn tempest and sword weaver hasn't been a thing since sword is awful.

[keyokku.5412]

After 5 years, mesmer finally has a viable DPS spot? Lol I think it's a reason to celebrate even if you don't play mesmer loll something new after all!

[Titan.3472]

Nerf Mirage burst.

[Shade.8971]

Are mesmers viable beyond one raid boss now?

[Carighan.6758]

@Shade.8971 said:Are mesmers viable beyond one raid boss now?

We're more than viable on all raid bosses. As Chronomancers, in fact all raids will want two of them to provide Quickness and Alacrity, skip raid mechanics, usually one as a tank, and copy other important buffs such as Protection or Retribution around.

That being said if you mean as DPS: No. Not only because the way we do DPS is problematic (it leaves us vulnerable to AE effects hitting us where other players could simply avoid them), but more importantly because the first two Mesmers will be wanted as Chronomancers. Meaning that you'd need 3+ Mesmers to even consider using one as a DPS character.

And that's just not all that common.

[Curunen.8729]

@Azukas.1426 said:Welp time to take up the good fight as I did with Chrono on release.....

Why?

Let the devs do it.

Or better yet if you're playing the game casually then why care - just play.

[Mikeskies.1536]

@takatsu.9416 said:After 5 years, mesmer finally has a viable DPS spot? Lol I think it's a reason to celebrate even if you don't play mesmer loll something new after all!

The issue is that it is doing too much damage. I had a Mirage outdpsing Weavers on Samarog. The DPS needs to be toned down by 5-8k.

[musu.9205]

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@takatsu.9416 said:After 5 years, mesmer finally has a viable DPS spot? Lol I think it's a reason to celebrate even if you don't play mesmer loll something new after all!

The issue is that it is doing too much damage. I had a Mirage outdpsing Weavers on Samarog. The DPS needs to be toned down by 5-8k.

well i agree the dps is broken , and its due to a bug , i wish anet fix bug as soon as possible .

but your reason is kinda silly . its outdpsing weavers , so it should be toned down ?since when ele as top dps became a rule for balance ?

[Levetty.1279]

@musu.9205 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@takatsu.9416 said:After 5 years, mesmer finally has a viable DPS spot? Lol I think it's a reason to celebrate even if you don't play mesmer loll something new after all!

The issue is that it is doing too much damage. I had a Mirage outdpsing Weavers on Samarog. The DPS needs to be toned down by 5-8k.

well i agree the dps is broken , and its due to a bug , i wish anet fix bug as soon as possible .

but your reason is kinda silly . its outdpsing weavers , so it should be toned down ?since when ele as top dps became a rule for balance ?

Thats pretty standard line of thought among eles.

[apharma.3741]

@Levetty.1279 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@takatsu.9416 said:After 5 years, mesmer finally has a viable DPS spot? Lol I think it's a reason to celebrate even if you don't play mesmer loll something new after all!

The issue is that it is doing too much damage. I had a Mirage outdpsing Weavers on Samarog. The DPS needs to be toned down by 5-8k.

well i agree the dps is broken , and its due to a bug , i wish anet fix bug as soon as possible .

but your reason is kinda silly . its outdpsing weavers , so it should be toned down ?since when ele as top dps became a rule for balance ?

Thats pretty standard line of thought among eles.

It’s more that weaver dps is very rotation reliant as well as needing alacrity and quickness to get anything close to that level of damage. Mesmer suffers much less from not having alacrity or quickness as well as having a much more simple rotation which means many elementalist mains (including yours truly) then have the awkward question of “why should I play this class if I’m having to do twice the work as others?” I mean because it is fun is the reason but that only gets you so far when you have a shitty day and thus end up underperforming a little but that then translates over to underperforming a lot in dps.

TLDR: risk vs reward.

[Zenith.7301]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@takatsu.9416 said:After 5 years, mesmer finally has a viable DPS spot? Lol I think it's a reason to celebrate even if you don't play mesmer loll something new after all!

The issue is that it is doing too much damage. I had a Mirage outdpsing Weavers on Samarog. The DPS needs to be toned down by 5-8k.

well i agree the dps is broken , and its due to a bug , i wish anet fix bug as soon as possible .

but your reason is kinda silly . its outdpsing weavers , so it should be toned down ?since when ele as top dps became a rule for balance ?

Thats pretty standard line of thought among eles.

It’s more that weaver dps is very rotation reliant as well as needing alacrity and quickness to get anything close to that level of damage. Mesmer suffers much less from not having alacrity or quickness as well as having a much more simple rotation which means many elementalist mains (including yours truly) then have the awkward question of “why should I play this class if I’m having to do twice the work as others?” I mean because it is fun is the reason but that only gets you so far when you have a kitten day and thus end up underperforming a little but that then translates over to underperforming a lot in dps.

TLDR: risk vs reward.

Weaver gets cleave, can do his damage from range, and provides occasional boons to the group. It also has burst.

Power based classes don't get to outDPS single target condition DPS classes, simple.

And this whole effort bullcrap needs to go. Nobody asked for dragonhunters to be nerfed when they were doing more damage than ele, or condi daredevil for that matter as condi daredevil is pretty simple too.

[Levetty.1279]

@apharma.3741 said:“why should I play this class if I’m having to do twice the work as others?”

Welcome to Mesmer through out the life of the game.

[musu.9205]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@takatsu.9416 said:After 5 years, mesmer finally has a viable DPS spot? Lol I think it's a reason to celebrate even if you don't play mesmer loll something new after all!

The issue is that it is doing too much damage. I had a Mirage outdpsing Weavers on Samarog. The DPS needs to be toned down by 5-8k.

well i agree the dps is broken , and its due to a bug , i wish anet fix bug as soon as possible .

but your reason is kinda silly . its outdpsing weavers , so it should be toned down ?since when ele as top dps became a rule for balance ?

Thats pretty standard line of thought among eles.

It’s more that weaver dps is very rotation reliant as well as needing alacrity and quickness to get anything close to that level of damage. Mesmer suffers much less from not having alacrity or quickness as well as having a much more simple rotation which means many elementalist mains (including yours truly) then have the awkward question of “why should I play this class if I’m having to do twice the work as others?” I mean because it is fun is the reason but that only gets you so far when you have a kitten day and thus end up underperforming a little but that then translates over to underperforming a lot in dps.

TLDR: risk vs reward.

but if you look at meta build , even for ele themselves , risk vs reward balance was never majoy concern by anet .before hot even tho power engi was harder to play , ele still believed their icebow fgs burst in water attune are high risk /reward . there were /are so many misinformation and weird belief in gw2 community but they are often not true .

[OriOri.8724]

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@takatsu.9416 said:After 5 years, mesmer finally has a viable DPS spot? Lol I think it's a reason to celebrate even if you don't play mesmer loll something new after all!

The issue is that it is doing too much damage. I had a Mirage outdpsing Weavers on Samarog. The DPS needs to be toned down by 5-8k.

And that damage is from a bug, it wasn't intended and everyone is hoping Anet fixes it. Stop trying to act as if we are defending this DPS when its very clear that it wasn't intentional

[Mikeskies.1536]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@takatsu.9416 said:After 5 years, mesmer finally has a viable DPS spot? Lol I think it's a reason to celebrate even if you don't play mesmer loll something new after all!

The issue is that it is doing too much damage. I had a Mirage outdpsing Weavers on Samarog. The DPS needs to be toned down by 5-8k.

And that damage is from a bug, it wasn't intended and everyone is hoping Anet fixes it. Stop trying to act as if we are defending this DPS when its very clear that it wasn't intentional

I'm not acting like that. I am all in favour of Mesmer having a DPS spec and currently in the process of gearing Mirage.

[OriOri.8724]

Sorry for misunderstanding then. You made a comment about lowering damage by 5-8k and I assumed you didn't know about the bug. Getting it fixed would lower our damage by about 5-7K right away

[Kobeathris.3645]

Has Anet actually stated that this is a bug? If not, lets stop calling it that, since we don't really know if this functionality is intended or not. Maybe the tooltip will be updated with "This Attack Pierces", which would explain how it works and would match with the animation. I actually haven't tested if this hits a 2nd target when the axes go out or not, but given the fact that the rest of the Axe auto chain cleaves, it would make sense if this attack pierced too. Fact is, this has been present since PoF launched, and during the balance pass Anet buffed Imaginary Axes. Now, they may have gone overboard between the buff while also fixing Mirrored Axes on clones, and upping the damage on the phantasmal axes (why change one thing and see what happens when we can change three), but I'm not sure we should really call this a bug when it is currently just poorly balanced.

[Netheren.3261]

Guess its finally time to roll a Mesmer.Being a player with a warrior and engineer is pretty shitty these days.

[Aylaine.1036]

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@takatsu.9416 said:After 5 years, mesmer finally has a viable DPS spot? Lol I think it's a reason to celebrate even if you don't play mesmer loll something new after all!

The issue is that it is doing too much damage. I had a Mirage outdpsing Weavers on Samarog. The DPS needs to be toned down by 5-8k.

Amusing considering how good Ele's have had it and how bad Mesmers have had it since release in terms of DPS specs.

[Zenith.7301]

@Netheren.3261 said:Guess its finally time to roll a Mesmer.Being a player with a warrior and engineer is pretty kitten these days.

......holosmith is the best power DPS spec in PvE.

[OriOri.8724]

@Kobeathris.3645 said:Has Anet actually stated that this is a bug? If not, lets stop calling it that, since we don't really know if this functionality is intended or not. Maybe the tooltip will be updated with "This Attack Pierces", which would explain how it works and would match with the animation. I actually haven't tested if this hits a 2nd target when the axes go out or not, but given the fact that the rest of the Axe auto chain cleaves, it would make sense if this attack pierced too. Fact is, this has been present since PoF launched, and during the balance pass Anet buffed Imaginary Axes. Now, they may have gone overboard between the buff while also fixing Mirrored Axes on clones, and upping the damage on the phantasmal axes (why change one thing and see what happens when we can change three), but I'm not sure we should really call this a bug when it is currently just poorly balanced.

Couple problems with this.A - Anet just implemented big nerfs on specs that were hitting DPS that high. Do you really think that in the same patch they would nerf other classes that were hitting that high, that they would intentionally buff mesmer to those levels? No, of course not.B - How does the rest of the auto chain cleaving have anything to do with this attack piercing? Pierce and cleave are different mechanicsC - The bug in question affects more than this single skill, and has existed since before PoF hit, so of course its been present on mirage since PoF launched, because the bug is not in mirage's code itself, but in other code that handles how attacks hit large hitboxes.

[Lunarlife.5128]

@OriOri.8724 said:Sorry for misunderstanding then. You made a comment about lowering damage by 5-8k and I assumed you didn't know about the bug. Getting it fixed would lower our damage by about 5-7K right away

This is really important in both golem and reality. Since there's a bug that makes our dps seem higher than it is on golem people will think we are better than we actually are. Once the bug does get fixed we'll have a more accurate representation of our dps and something closer to reality because you can't always be in that position on a boss with a big hitbox.

[Kobeathris.3645]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Kobeathris.3645 said:Has Anet actually stated that this is a bug? If not, lets stop calling it that, since we don't really know if this functionality is intended or not. Maybe the tooltip will be updated with "This Attack Pierces", which would explain how it works and would match with the animation. I actually haven't tested if this hits a 2nd target when the axes go out or not, but given the fact that the rest of the Axe auto chain cleaves, it would make sense if this attack pierced too. Fact is, this has been present since PoF launched, and during the balance pass Anet buffed Imaginary Axes. Now, they may have gone overboard between the buff while also fixing Mirrored Axes on clones, and upping the damage on the phantasmal axes (why change one thing and see what happens when we can change three), but I'm not sure we should really call this a bug when it is currently just poorly balanced.

Couple problems with this.A - Anet just implemented big nerfs on specs that were hitting DPS that high. Do you really think that in the same patch they would nerf other classes that were hitting that high, that they would intentionally buff mesmer to those levels? No, of course not.B - How does the rest of the auto chain cleaving have anything to do with this attack piercing? Pierce and cleave are different mechanicsC - The bug in question affects more than this single skill, and has existed since before PoF hit, so of course its been present on mirage since PoF launched, because the bug is not in mirage's code itself, but in other code that handles how attacks hit large hitboxes.

A - No, not at all, but this is Arenanet, and I think they did several things at once which resulted in numbers that are too high, bit that doesn't mean the specific behavior of imaginary axes is a bug.

B - Right, but imaginary axes is a projectile, and I don't think projectiles ever cleave (I could be wrong on this, apologies if so), they do, however, pierce on occasion, which is the closest analog to a cleave.

C - This is slightly different though. If you put a quarter second delay on it like they did with meteor shower, it would still happen, and this affects any size hitbox, not just large. The animation for each axe hits one time as it goes out from the mesmer, and once again as it crashes back in. With meteor shower, you have multiple strikes at the same time hitting one large target.

Again, this may be intended behavior or it may not be. If the behavior is intended, and it is resulting in damage that is too high, then the question is, what needs to be nerfed to lower the damage. I still want to test if this attack hits multiple targets or not, just haven't had a chance to yet. If it does, honestly, that's fantastic, and I would personally rather see the numbers dropped slightly, but the behavior kept the same. I'm by no means suggesting that the damage and effect should both remain if the overall damage is out of line.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

@Kobeathris.3645 said:I still want to test if this attack hits multiple targets or not, just haven't had a chance to yet.

It does. If you've got tightly packed targets around the primary target that the axes seek to, like in the array of golems in HotM, they pierce through the primary target and end up hitting other targets as well.

[apharma.3741]

@musu.9205 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@takatsu.9416 said:After 5 years, mesmer finally has a viable DPS spot? Lol I think it's a reason to celebrate even if you don't play mesmer loll something new after all!

The issue is that it is doing too much damage. I had a Mirage outdpsing Weavers on Samarog. The DPS needs to be toned down by 5-8k.

well i agree the dps is broken , and its due to a bug , i wish anet fix bug as soon as possible .

but your reason is kinda silly . its outdpsing weavers , so it should be toned down ?since when ele as top dps became a rule for balance ?

Thats pretty standard line of thought among eles.

It’s more that weaver dps is very rotation reliant as well as needing alacrity and quickness to get anything close to that level of damage. Mesmer suffers much less from not having alacrity or quickness as well as having a much more simple rotation which means many elementalist mains (including yours truly) then have the awkward question of “why should I play this class if I’m having to do twice the work as others?” I mean because it is fun is the reason but that only gets you so far when you have a kitten day and thus end up underperforming a little but that then translates over to underperforming a lot in dps.

TLDR: risk vs reward.

but if you look at meta build , even for ele themselves , risk vs reward balance was never majoy concern by anet .before hot even tho power engi was harder to play , ele still believed their icebow fgs burst in water attune are high risk /reward . there were /are so many misinformation and weird belief in gw2 community but they are often not true .

The risk vs reward is mostly about having to cast meteor the highest damage skill and the one that really pulls the ele ahead in damage, at 31/2s cast time, even with quickness it’s very easily to get shafted by one of the many mobs that has CC in raids. I’m also not talking about ele, I’m talking about weaver and it has got a lot to juggle, far more than mirage and way more than core ele.

@Levetty.1279 that was mostly for PvP and you know it, having to do way more work to be a 2nd rate feef.

@Zenith.7301 actually a lot of eles were a little resentful at DH on small targets but ele had an ok rotation that wasn’t too complex and rewarded them about the same so it wasn’t that vocal. Put simply the difference wasn’t so high. Condition engineer for a long time was one of the top (still is) dps builds in the game on small targets that don’t move or can be controlled easily and nobody complained at it because it had a complex rotation, the damage scaled with the difficulty and it did for a few others then DD came and ANet kept buffing easy high damage builds. I know many eles who refuse to run condi even though it’s a fairly simple rotation and does decent damage because they don’t believe simple and easy rotations should provide such high amounts of damage and they hate that the FGS variant even exists.

Yes ele gets better cleave, far better cleave but the boons it gives is inconsequential at best and not worth mentioning. When mesmer has the bug fixed and is pulling what 34-36k I think that’s a fair point to be at. Personally I think most builds could do with toning down a tad to the 30-35k level but that’s because you can really see the creep since PoF with most top builds capable of 10% more damage than the top builds of August and weaver completely decimating large targets, though I guess that’s gone down since the icebow nerf.

Just remember there are people like Azukas who are ele mains too, don’t judge everyone by the same standard.