This is silly.

[Funky.4861]

Firstly, they fixed a bug.Secondly i care very little for pvp/wvw- warr/zerker with banners still beats spellbreaker in raids.Glasscannon necro has only 1 defence which they have to build up first, automatically degenerates (faster if reaper) and has no immunities, scant access to stability, no invulns, blocks, reflects, teleport skills (outside scourge- no-one takes flesh wurm) and you're telling me it's somehow more durable?

Core mes is more durable, mirage more so, whilst still dealing more damage than necro.

[OriOri.8724]

The definition of a glass cannon build is that it takes few to no defensive utilities, period. The one shot burst mesmer has distortion (usually 1 sec, seeing how if they pop it, its because their burst, which uses MW, failed, so they won't have any illusions out), which they can't run without, and stealth. Necro will always have shroud, even as a glass cannon build. You're welcome to debate the effectiveness of it, but don't pretend like it won't help you eat damage if you pop it. And something is wrong if your shroud is being tore through in 1 second. Not necessarily with your playstyle, but something is wrong if that is happening.

[Carighan.6758]

@zealex.9410 said:Nah i want to see them both nerfed. But ele should be higher still since it has no utility. Unlike mesmer which has a tone of it.

A ton. But we also have a tone of DPS, mostly it's all interrupts and we can respec to Chrono to be a buffer. But you're wrong in saying Ele has no support, they are the strongest healer in raw healing output among other things.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Funky.4861 said:Firstly, they fixed a bug.Secondly i care very little for pvp/wvw- warr/zerker with banners still beats spellbreaker in raids.Glasscannon necro has only 1 defence which they have to build up first, automatically degenerates (faster if reaper) and has no immunities, scant access to stability, no invulns, blocks, reflects, teleport skills (outside scourge- no-one takes flesh wurm) and you're telling me it's somehow more durable?

Core mes is more durable, mirage more so, whilst still dealing more damage than necro.

Core mesmer is more durable if played like a piano and had about 1/2 the damage of necromancer for over 5 years until August 8th this year.

Mirage received a huge buff 1 day before PoF and has been buffed since because it was in such a sorry state. It now is in a very good spot due to a bug.

The fact that you do not play spvp or wvw only shows that you are basing your entire argument on 1/3 of the game modes in this game. Maybe quantify your arguments based on this limitation. Also no, Scourge was not only overpowered in spvp and wvw but also in pve being 3rd highest dps behind totally broken 57k Firebarnd and 47k "I can play a super complex rotation on a huge target which doesn't move" weaver. Scourge was an easy 40k+ golem (28-30k boss) dps with barrier and corruption pve class.

Necro in general has a ton of anti condition damage utilities as well as removal and corruption. Guess what is current meta in spvp and wvw?

As far as pve, if you can't survive on reaper in pve, learn to play. Better yet, play some of the other classes in this game, then switch back to your necro. I have no issue surviving on mine with a fraction of the effort I have to put in compared to any other class while happily spamming epidemic in group content.

The only issue necro has right now is no viable raid spec. That's it.

[Amenon.9126]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Funky.4861 said:

@Kas.3509 said:Id prefer for it to be worth to use phantasms. I mean.. I believe in PVE mesmer SHOULD be top dmg (as we provide nothing useful outside of dmg really...), but not that higher than others. It should be on par with other builds that provide nothing for the party :P.

On the other hand -> on everyboss that cleaves/does aoe dmg/moves a lot these clones wont live or keep up. So its just good on slow single target with no cleave or aoe attacks.

As for necros... necros will never do much damage on currents specs. The problem is they have too much survivability that allows you to face tank everything due to shrouds/shields (reaper/scourge), shields also bring a lot to party, and they have epi which is a great thing in many places with current condi meta. So they cant have top survivability and top dmg.

Necros have nowhere near the survivability of other classes, esp since last patch nerf to RS (and the previous patchs' vital persistance and speed of shadows nerfs to DS/SS which also affect RS). By 'shield' i'm assuming u mean barrier, which is not wanted in most raid groups, epidemic is only useful if there are adds (more so if the adds last long enough for an epi bounce). So they don't have top survivabilty and at best mediocre damage (apart from a few niche situations). Necros bring no real utility to a group and even if their dps was buffed by a flat 50% it still wouldn't be as high as an ele, which also has utility.

Yes after having to get toned down from Scrouge overpoweredness at PoF launch. The 1 class which beat Spellbreaker in how overpowered it was when PoF hit, so much that arenanet actually nerfed it even befor the balance patch released.

Also glasscanon necro is more durable than most other classes even with reduced shroud unless in a group enviroment where people cover each other. There is a reason why many people still run 4 necro comps in T4 fractals even though they are far FAR away from performing as efficiently as a meta group. The 2 main reasons being, shroud and epidemic share.

Do necros need love? Yes, but don't come here being all sad and moppy 1 week after a balance patch changed the classes survivability. This is double true for pre PoF.

People run 4 necro fractal groups? Best joke I've heard this November!

[Cyninja.2954]

@Amenon.9126 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Funky.4861 said:

@Kas.3509 said:Id prefer for it to be worth to use phantasms. I mean.. I believe in PVE mesmer SHOULD be top dmg (as we provide nothing useful outside of dmg really...), but not that higher than others. It should be on par with other builds that provide nothing for the party :P.

On the other hand -> on everyboss that cleaves/does aoe dmg/moves a lot these clones wont live or keep up. So its just good on slow single target with no cleave or aoe attacks.

As for necros... necros will never do much damage on currents specs. The problem is they have too much survivability that allows you to face tank everything due to shrouds/shields (reaper/scourge), shields also bring a lot to party, and they have epi which is a great thing in many places with current condi meta. So they cant have top survivability and top dmg.

Necros have nowhere near the survivability of other classes, esp since last patch nerf to RS (and the previous patchs' vital persistance and speed of shadows nerfs to DS/SS which also affect RS). By 'shield' i'm assuming u mean barrier, which is not wanted in most raid groups, epidemic is only useful if there are adds (more so if the adds last long enough for an epi bounce). So they don't have top survivabilty and at best mediocre damage (apart from a few niche situations). Necros bring no real utility to a group and even if their dps was buffed by a flat 50% it still wouldn't be as high as an ele, which also has utility.

Yes after having to get toned down from Scrouge overpoweredness at PoF launch. The 1 class which beat Spellbreaker in how overpowered it was when PoF hit, so much that arenanet actually nerfed it even befor the balance patch released.

Also glasscanon necro is more durable than most other classes even with reduced shroud unless in a group enviroment where people cover each other. There is a reason why many people still run 4 necro comps in T4 fractals even though they are far FAR away from performing as efficiently as a meta group. The 2 main reasons being, shroud and epidemic share.

Do necros need love? Yes, but don't come here being all sad and moppy 1 week after a balance patch changed the classes survivability. This is double true for pre PoF.

People run 4 necro fractal groups? Best joke I've heard this November!

The last nerf might have pushed the lazy meta down to a minimum, it's still being run though which goes to show how lazy people are and that it works.

Most other groups are running 1 Scourge in fractals in their meta comp.

True, the 4 necro + 1 druid setup has been reduced even further after November 7th. Don't pretend like it was non existant before that though.

[Funky.4861]

Made a change from the 4 warr 1 mes which was meta for years...

[Cyninja.2954]

@Funky.4861 said:Made a change from the 4 warr 1 mes which was meta for years...

Which part of timewarp and portal bot did you miss? Also towards the end of vanilla 5 warriors beat 4 war+1mes performance and speedwise. So why are you not on the warrior boards complaining there? Warrior has been undeniably in a far better spot through the entire GW2 phase compared to mesmer.

Doesn't change a thing about any of the other issues I brought up.

[apharma.3741]

I feel this is pertinent to the discussion at hand.

[zealex.9410]

Large45.6 Mirage42.5 Weaver Staff Arcane41.7 Weaver Staff Air33.5 Daredevil Condi w/fields (calculated)31.7 DH Radiance31.4 Elementalist (calculated)~30.8 Tempest

Small40.3 Mirage (stationary target)38.7 Mirage34.3+ Soulbeast34.0 Mirage Phantasms33.8 Weaver Staff Arcane33.5 Weaver Staff Air32.7 Firebrand32.4 Holosmith32.3 Renegade31.9 Weaver Sword/Dagger31.8 Engineer31.7 Daredevil Condi30.5 Daredevil Staff30.4 Berserker (calculated)30.3 DH Radiance30.1 Engineer (easy rotation)30.0 Berserker w/ Banners+EA~30.0 Condi Scourge28.4 Deadeye~27.0 Power Reaper25.2 Condi PS14.5 Condi Druid10.4-14.0 Chronomancer

??? Condi Weaver(29.5k?) Condi Reaper(28k?) Power Revenant/Herald/Renegade??? (under 14) Power Druid

[Ballads.2509]

@zealex.9410 said:Large45.6 Mirage42.5 Weaver Staff Arcane41.7 Weaver Staff Air33.5 Daredevil Condi w/fields (calculated)31.7 DH Radiance31.4 Elementalist (calculated)~30.8 Tempest

Small40.3 Mirage (stationary target)38.7 Mirage34.3+ Soulbeast34.0 Mirage Phantasms33.8 Weaver Staff Arcane33.5 Weaver Staff Air32.7 Firebrand32.4 Holosmith32.3 Renegade31.9 Weaver Sword/Dagger31.8 Engineer31.7 Daredevil Condi30.5 Daredevil Staff30.4 Berserker (calculated)30.3 DH Radiance30.1 Engineer (easy rotation)30.0 Berserker w/ Banners+EA~30.0 Condi Scourge28.4 Deadeye~27.0 Power Reaper25.2 Condi PS14.5 Condi Druid10.4-14.0 Chronomancer

??? Condi Weaver(29.5k?) Condi Reaper(28k?) Power Revenant/Herald/Renegade??? (under 14) Power Druid

TBH most of these Benchmarks are done very unrealistically and many of them are outdated. a more realistic look at it here.https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_statsWhere you can see Weaver outperforming Mirage about 11 out of 13 bosses. Condi Weaver being the highest Spec overall currently.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Amineo.8951 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@takatsu.9416 said:After 5 years, mesmer finally has a viable DPS spot? Lol I think it's a reason to celebrate even if you don't play mesmer loll something new after all!

The issue is that it is doing too much damage. I had a Mirage outdpsing Weavers on Samarog. The DPS needs to be toned down by 5-8k.

No where is it a written rule Weavers should be the top DPS in all scenerio'sFaulty logic.

And Why are people still making a big deal out of a bug?

Weaver still has the AOEs and Fire fields which makes it better than Mirage in most scenarios, and they don't need to change their gear to play Tempest. I think Mirage maybe needs to be toned down a bit, but it surely deserves to deal a lot of DPS because it's more dangerous to play than everything else unlike Soulbeast for example.

Stuff that needs adjustements atm:-Firebrand Support-Power Reaper and Condi Scourge-Power Daredevil and Deadeye-Spellbreaker-Herald

Not a tone down, a bug fix, bug fix puts it in line with everything else..

except weaver

and I'm betting not a single person wanting mes to get nerfed to the ground is even going to care about weaver being Top of the class again

Nah i want to see them both nerfed. But ele should be higher still since it has no utility. Unlike mesmer which has a tone of it.

That doesn't make sense. What "utility" does mirage offer? If you bring mirage, you bring it for damage (usually after you ask the player why they didn't just play chrono and after exhausting any other options that might provide some utility!). Given that, mirage deserves to be among the top damage dealers in the game.

[apharma.3741]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Amineo.8951 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@takatsu.9416 said:After 5 years, mesmer finally has a viable DPS spot? Lol I think it's a reason to celebrate even if you don't play mesmer loll something new after all!

The issue is that it is doing too much damage. I had a Mirage outdpsing Weavers on Samarog. The DPS needs to be toned down by 5-8k.

No where is it a written rule Weavers should be the top DPS in all scenerio'sFaulty logic.

And Why are people still making a big deal out of a bug?

Weaver still has the AOEs and Fire fields which makes it better than Mirage in most scenarios, and they don't need to change their gear to play Tempest. I think Mirage maybe needs to be toned down a bit, but it surely deserves to deal a lot of DPS because it's more dangerous to play than everything else unlike Soulbeast for example.

Stuff that needs adjustements atm:-Firebrand Support-Power Reaper and Condi Scourge-Power Daredevil and Deadeye-Spellbreaker-Herald

Not a tone down, a bug fix, bug fix puts it in line with everything else..

except weaver

and I'm betting not a single person wanting mes to get nerfed to the ground is even going to care about weaver being Top of the class again

Nah i want to see them both nerfed. But ele should be higher still since it has no utility. Unlike mesmer which has a tone of it.

That doesn't make sense. What "utility" does mirage offer? If you bring mirage, you bring it for damage (usually after you ask the player why they didn't just play chrono and after exhausting any other options that might provide some utility!). Given that, mirage deserves to be among the top damage dealers in the game.

Mirage offers Moa on a 180s CD which destroys breakbars, but realistically it’s 140s due to alacrity even if your chrono is slacking and can slot in reflect, cleanses or stab as needed with minimal loss of dps. Mirage doesn’t suddenly lose access to base mesmer and its amazing utilities. Core ele utilities can be decent but are largely damage orientated or selfish, same with stances and the heal stance is plain rubbish.

Mirage doesn’t deserve to be the top damage dealer but it also doesn’t deserve to be trash either, it at least brings some cleave while using axe auto but realistically it’s still fairly poor and mostly single target however it does make up for this by having the ability to slot really strong utility skills with minimal loss of dps which should be accounted for just like with guards.

[Solori.6025]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Amineo.8951 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@takatsu.9416 said:After 5 years, mesmer finally has a viable DPS spot? Lol I think it's a reason to celebrate even if you don't play mesmer loll something new after all!

The issue is that it is doing too much damage. I had a Mirage outdpsing Weavers on Samarog. The DPS needs to be toned down by 5-8k.

No where is it a written rule Weavers should be the top DPS in all scenerio'sFaulty logic.

And Why are people still making a big deal out of a bug?

Weaver still has the AOEs and Fire fields which makes it better than Mirage in most scenarios, and they don't need to change their gear to play Tempest. I think Mirage maybe needs to be toned down a bit, but it surely deserves to deal a lot of DPS because it's more dangerous to play than everything else unlike Soulbeast for example.

Stuff that needs adjustements atm:-Firebrand Support-Power Reaper and Condi Scourge-Power Daredevil and Deadeye-Spellbreaker-Herald

Not a tone down, a bug fix, bug fix puts it in line with everything else..

except weaver

The amount of AoE's i> @apharma.3741 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Amineo.8951 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@takatsu.9416 said:After 5 years, mesmer finally has a viable DPS spot? Lol I think it's a reason to celebrate even if you don't play mesmer loll something new after all!

The issue is that it is doing too much damage. I had a Mirage outdpsing Weavers on Samarog. The DPS needs to be toned down by 5-8k.

No where is it a written rule Weavers should be the top DPS in all scenerio'sFaulty logic.

And Why are people still making a big deal out of a bug?

Weaver still has the AOEs and Fire fields which makes it better than Mirage in most scenarios, and they don't need to change their gear to play Tempest. I think Mirage maybe needs to be toned down a bit, but it surely deserves to deal a lot of DPS because it's more dangerous to play than everything else unlike Soulbeast for example.

Stuff that needs adjustements atm:-Firebrand Support-Power Reaper and Condi Scourge-Power Daredevil and Deadeye-Spellbreaker-Herald

Not a tone down, a bug fix, bug fix puts it in line with everything else..

except weaver

and I'm betting not a single person wanting mes to get nerfed to the ground is even going to care about weaver being Top of the class again

Nah i want to see them both nerfed. But ele should be higher still since it has no utility. Unlike mesmer which has a tone of it.

That doesn't make sense. What "utility" does mirage offer? If you bring mirage, you bring it for damage (usually after you ask the player why they didn't just play chrono and after exhausting any other options that might provide some utility!). Given that, mirage deserves to be among the top damage dealers in the game.

Mirage offers Moa on a 180s CD which destroys breakbars, but realistically it’s 140s due to alacrity even if your chrono is slacking and can slot in reflect, cleanses or stab as needed with minimal loss of dps. Mirage doesn’t suddenly lose access to base mesmer and its amazing utilities. Core ele utilities can be decent but are largely damage orientated or selfish, same with stances and the heal stance is plain rubbish.

Mirage doesn’t deserve to be the top damage dealer but it also doesn’t deserve to be trash either, it at least brings some cleave while using axe auto but realistically it’s still fairly poor and mostly single target however it does make up for this by having the ability to slot really strong utility skills with minimal loss of dps which should be accounted for just like with guards.

If you bring Moa you arent taking Jaunt, which I think contributes to your overall DPS ( think someone I raided with said it was 7% loss overtime without it)So you can take moa, and lose the original purpose you were their for, and still be out DPS'd by a weaver sooooo. . . .

Also guys please remember, this is a bug.

[Cyninja.2954]

@apharma.3741 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Amineo.8951 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@takatsu.9416 said:After 5 years, mesmer finally has a viable DPS spot? Lol I think it's a reason to celebrate even if you don't play mesmer loll something new after all!

The issue is that it is doing too much damage. I had a Mirage outdpsing Weavers on Samarog. The DPS needs to be toned down by 5-8k.

No where is it a written rule Weavers should be the top DPS in all scenerio'sFaulty logic.

And Why are people still making a big deal out of a bug?

Weaver still has the AOEs and Fire fields which makes it better than Mirage in most scenarios, and they don't need to change their gear to play Tempest. I think Mirage maybe needs to be toned down a bit, but it surely deserves to deal a lot of DPS because it's more dangerous to play than everything else unlike Soulbeast for example.

Stuff that needs adjustements atm:-Firebrand Support-Power Reaper and Condi Scourge-Power Daredevil and Deadeye-Spellbreaker-Herald

Not a tone down, a bug fix, bug fix puts it in line with everything else..

except weaver

and I'm betting not a single person wanting mes to get nerfed to the ground is even going to care about weaver being Top of the class again

Nah i want to see them both nerfed. But ele should be higher still since it has no utility. Unlike mesmer which has a tone of it.

That doesn't make sense. What "utility" does mirage offer? If you bring mirage, you bring it for damage (usually after you ask the player why they didn't just play chrono and after exhausting any other options that might provide some utility!). Given that, mirage deserves to be among the top damage dealers in the game.

Mirage offers Moa on a 180s CD which destroys breakbars, but realistically it’s 140s due to alacrity even if your chrono is slacking and can slot in reflect, cleanses or stab as needed with minimal loss of dps. Mirage doesn’t suddenly lose access to base mesmer and its amazing utilities. Core ele utilities can be decent but are largely damage orientated or selfish, same with stances and the heal stance is plain rubbish.

Mirage doesn’t deserve to be the top damage dealer but it also doesn’t deserve to be trash either, it at least brings some cleave while using axe auto but realistically it’s still fairly poor and mostly single target however it does make up for this by having the ability to slot really strong utility skills with minimal loss of dps which should be accounted for just like with guards.

I often agree with you apharma, but not losing a lot of dps on utility skills? 180 condition damage on one signet as well as 20% condition duration on the other is both a significant dps loss if exchanged. Crystal Sands and Jaunt getting exchanged is also a dps loss. Our utility comes at a significant cost. Now this is true for most dps, yet some of them bring a lot of utility on top of dps currently or with less dps loss (firebrand, renegade) or with strait up good cleave and damage (weaver).

Moas superior usefulness is debatable at 180s (or 140s with good alacrity) cooldown. It is the strongest one time use defiance break in-game (but the timer makes it not be up for a majority of repeat break bars in raids), quite a few other defiance breaks will do more over the same period of time (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_Bar). For example, one of the best bar breaks Head Butt will do 300 defiance bar damage every 20 seconds. That's 9 uses (180/20) over the same period of time as Moa for a total of 2,700 defiance bar damage. Signet of Humility is okayish at best without Continuum Split. The only other significant utility we can bring is reflect (as main reflect for say Matthias to releave chrono and allow for wells), condi cleanse as backup for fights like Sloth or an extra SoI.

With a bug fix and a top tier (among the top 3) positioning Mirage would be fine, top tier being around 33-35k atm. Anything below that would mean the class becomes niche for certain bosses again with its low cleave.

[musu.9205]

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/4/area-15429https://lucky-noobs.com/dps-tabelle-07-11-17/

i don't know why you guys are arguing over a bug .

and funny how even with bug , weaver (both condi and power )is still outdps mirage on many bosses .after the bug fix , mirage will be back to bad state . it only has dps . but it is bad at dps . even it will still top 3 after bug fix why you want to bring a mirage instead of holosmith or dragon hunter when it will only be 1k dps difference . also keep in mind , without double druid and war , other classes have to do cc on few bosses now .you still jump into aoe by casting axe 3 , meta builds still have many skills on the bar that we never use due to dps loss .clone build even has unused traits and many close to useless traits .it's still a melee spec with shorter range .almost no cc , no utility , no aoe .

[Carighan.6758]

Melee range is actually 130 units, @musu.9205 .

But otherwise I agree. Plus our dodge doesn't get us out of boss AEs, so we're pretty screwed in some fights.

[apharma.3741]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Amineo.8951 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Mikeskies.1536 said:

@takatsu.9416 said:After 5 years, mesmer finally has a viable DPS spot? Lol I think it's a reason to celebrate even if you don't play mesmer loll something new after all!

The issue is that it is doing too much damage. I had a Mirage outdpsing Weavers on Samarog. The DPS needs to be toned down by 5-8k.

No where is it a written rule Weavers should be the top DPS in all scenerio'sFaulty logic.

And Why are people still making a big deal out of a bug?

Weaver still has the AOEs and Fire fields which makes it better than Mirage in most scenarios, and they don't need to change their gear to play Tempest. I think Mirage maybe needs to be toned down a bit, but it surely deserves to deal a lot of DPS because it's more dangerous to play than everything else unlike Soulbeast for example.

Stuff that needs adjustements atm:-Firebrand Support-Power Reaper and Condi Scourge-Power Daredevil and Deadeye-Spellbreaker-Herald

Not a tone down, a bug fix, bug fix puts it in line with everything else..

except weaver

and I'm betting not a single person wanting mes to get nerfed to the ground is even going to care about weaver being Top of the class again

Nah i want to see them both nerfed. But ele should be higher still since it has no utility. Unlike mesmer which has a tone of it.

That doesn't make sense. What "utility" does mirage offer? If you bring mirage, you bring it for damage (usually after you ask the player why they didn't just play chrono and after exhausting any other options that might provide some utility!). Given that, mirage deserves to be among the top damage dealers in the game.

Mirage offers Moa on a 180s CD which destroys breakbars, but realistically it’s 140s due to alacrity even if your chrono is slacking and can slot in reflect, cleanses or stab as needed with minimal loss of dps. Mirage doesn’t suddenly lose access to base mesmer and its amazing utilities. Core ele utilities can be decent but are largely damage orientated or selfish, same with stances and the heal stance is plain rubbish.

Mirage doesn’t deserve to be the top damage dealer but it also doesn’t deserve to be trash either, it at least brings some cleave while using axe auto but realistically it’s still fairly poor and mostly single target however it does make up for this by having the ability to slot really strong utility skills with minimal loss of dps which should be accounted for just like with guards.

I often agree with you apharma, but not losing a lot of dps on utility skills? 180 condition damage on one signet as well as 20% condition duration on the other is both a significant dps loss if exchanged. Crystal Sands and Jaunt getting exchanged is also a dps loss. Our utility comes at a significant cost. Now this is true for most dps, yet some of them bring a lot of utility on top of dps currently or with less dps loss (firebrand, renegade) or with strait up good cleave and damage (weaver).

Moas superior usefulness is debatable at 180s (or 140s with good alacrity) cooldown. It is the strongest one time use defiance break in-game (but the timer makes it not be up for a majority of repeat break bars in raids), quite a few other defiance breaks will do more over the same period of time (

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defiance_Bar

). For example, one of the best bar breaks Head Butt will do 300 defiance bar damage every 20 seconds. That's 9 uses (180/20) over the same period of time as Moa for a total of 2,700 defiance bar damage. Signet of Humility is okayish at best without Continuum Split. The only other significant utility we can bring is reflect (as main reflect for say Matthias to releave chrono and allow for wells), condi cleanse as backup for fights like Sloth or an extra SoI.

With a bug fix and a top tier (among the top 3) positioning Mirage would be fine, top tier being around 33-35k atm. Anything below that would mean the class becomes niche for certain bosses again with its low cleave.

I was meaning swapping out crystal sands not the signets and you probably wouldn’t swap out both jaunt and sand through glass unless the group was really that bad that they needed it in which case your dps dropping isn’t the biggest issue.

Compare it to other classes though and you realise how much easier mesmer does have it though on the utilities, the ability to swap out a single utility skill for stab, reflect, condi clear or CC is really good when some classes can’t do that or would have to swap traits to achieve the same effect. Guardian is in this same boat, thief, ranger, necro and engineer have some useful utilities they can swap in if needed but it’s not as versatile as mesmer.

We will have to see where this fix if it ever happens puts mesmer, I like the clone build and would love to see it performing competitively with other classes. We also have to consider that we now have room for 6 dps classes which allows for something like a dedicated single target damage dealer like mesmer which will do great damage to the boss and can have some utility if needed.

Edit: corrected my error, sand through glass changed to crystal sands.

[Levetty.1279]

This is becoming increasingly obvious that apharma is just one of those people that thinks Mesmer is OP when it can do what other classes can do. Yes Mesmer can slot out damage utilities for actual utilities but so can most other classes, you admit this yourself, but there is no spare slot for them (nobody uses sand through glass). Every slot is used for damage and some even used to help keep up clones so any utility you bring is going to be a big damage loss.

Its also funny when other classes bring up any minor thing that can mess up their rotation to show how their DPS is alright while ripping Mesmer apart. Those other classes aren't relying on bugs, throwing away dodges that they need to save to avoid damage, clones that can be killed and having minimal cleave when doing damage either.

[Carighan.6758]

@Levetty.1279 said:Its also funny when other classes bring up any minor thing that can mess up their rotation to show how their DPS is alright while ripping Mesmer apart. Those other classes aren't relying on bugs, throwing away dodges that they need to save to avoid damage, clones that can be killed and having minimal cleave when doing damage either.

But but... when @apharma.3741 fights a Mesmer, those clones never ever die, they're invincible. And they always hit instead of wandering off randomly to kill a frog! And their axes don't just fail to connect either, there's always a billion of them, every ambush, and they all hit for 65000 confusion stacks!

(this is basically how complaints about Mesmers always read, while ofc Thieves and Warriors are pr0-skill classes only able to be played at 400+ APM which ofc every such player has, their rotation relies on quantum calculations you need to do in your head and even then you barely do as well as a Mesmer who is asleep in LA whose axes still hit you in the borderlands!)

[OriOri.8724]

@Levetty.1279 said:This is becoming increasingly obvious that apharma is just one of those people that thinks Mesmer is OP when it can do what other classes can do. Yes Mesmer can slot out damage utilities for actual utilities but so can most other classes, you admit this yourself, but there is no spare slot for them (nobody uses sand through glass). Every slot is used for damage and some even used to help keep up clones so any utility you bring is going to be a big damage loss.

Its also funny when other classes bring up any minor thing that can mess up their rotation to show how their DPS is alright while ripping Mesmer apart. Those other classes aren't relying on bugs, throwing away dodges that they need to save to avoid damage, clones that can be killed and having minimal cleave when doing damage either.

What is with this recent trend on the mesmer forums of trying to discredit someone who disagrees with you by saying that they hate mesmer? You are the second person I've seen in as many days pull this off and I don't get it.

Mesmer players are some of the most rational that I've seen, and can recognize when something is overperforming. If a class can do what other classes in the meta can do then yes, that class is overperforming. Mirage needs to have its bug fixed, then we can see if it needs to be toned down further in PvE. Some other classes/builds need to be toned down period instead of bringing mirage up to theri level and just increasing the powercreep.

[apharma.3741]

@Levetty.1279 said:This is becoming increasingly obvious that apharma is just one of those people that thinks Mesmer is OP when it can do what other classes can do. Yes Mesmer can slot out damage utilities for actual utilities but so can most other classes, you admit this yourself, but there is no spare slot for them (nobody uses sand through glass). Every slot is used for damage and some even used to help keep up clones so any utility you bring is going to be a big damage loss.

Its also funny when other classes bring up any minor thing that can mess up their rotation to show how their DPS is alright while ripping Mesmer apart. Those other classes aren't relying on bugs, throwing away dodges that they need to save to avoid damage, clones that can be killed and having minimal cleave when doing damage either.

Crystal Sands is in every single condi mesmer build as it’s pretty much one of the only damage increasing utilities, it isn’t a huge dps increase nor is it that big a loss if you slot in a feedback instead for Matthias or mantra of concentration for Sloth so you don’t worry about the fear. This is the same problem a lot of people had with firebrand doing top level dps and some still do, it’s the support it can throw out at the same time as doing that top level damage. When you look at the weaver and tempest builds they offer 0 support and have very little to no room for it, this is the same with many classes.

I am not nor have I said mesmer should not be aloud to do dps I have however said that their capacity to slot in a single exceptional support skill with minimal dps loss needs to be taken into account just as it should be with firebrand which is over performing too. If the bug ever gets fixed and the clone mirage build is doing about 32-34k that seems about right for a class that has some of the strongest utilities in the game for PvE and has one of the easiest set ups you can get.

Name any other build except firebrand doing more damage than condi mirage that will not lose a ton of damage for using another utility skill.

[FJSAMA.2867]

I love when i hear ppl talking about mirage too many dodges, too many sustain...Do they even realize that mesmer (and Necro) are the only classes that doesnt have endurance restore or improved regen traits/skills?Mesmer actually have a lot traits with on dodge mechanic even more with mirage (having to waste dodges offensivly) and nada about raw endurance bonus. They can only rely on vigor, which is not the best class at applying it either, and without other boons to cover is easily ripped or corrupted in this meta be it scourge spellbreaker thief or wep sigils.

Sustain now: The only heal comes with the healing skill, and to get the most of it you either need 3 clones or wait the hot of the new heal. Nothing extraordinary either way in terms of ammount. No water fields access to combo with.

Condi clear: The meta build has 3 skills that cure 1 condi each: 1 wep skill, 1 utility skill, 1 trait. The wep skill is also used on opening burst. It is actually where most of the damage comes from (ppl complaining about 12 confu when the 7 burning dmg is where most of the dmg comes from), super predictable damage since it has a fixed timer. 24s / 30s cd 1 condi.The utility is jaunt, another offensive/movement utility. 1condi 20s cd.The trait is mirage gm. Well again on dodge.... Use dodge to clear 1 condi and risk to get 3condis applied cause u didnt dodge 1 skill...Apart all this, no real blast and Light field access and just sword 2 to add on evades.Every class has better defensive options on their meta wep skills than mirage. More condi clears, more healing options and par (at worst) on vigor application with additive endurance or passive regen to boot or cover boons to ensure vigor stays.

Now i rly want to know where those builds comes from... I play at around the tops 250 eu and never saw that build... Silver builds new meta?

[musu.9205]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:This is becoming increasingly obvious that apharma is just one of those people that thinks Mesmer is OP when it can do what other classes can do. Yes Mesmer can slot out damage utilities for actual utilities but so can most other classes, you admit this yourself, but there is no spare slot for them (nobody uses sand through glass). Every slot is used for damage and some even used to help keep up clones so any utility you bring is going to be a big damage loss.

Its also funny when other classes bring up any minor thing that can mess up their rotation to show how their DPS is alright while ripping Mesmer apart. Those other classes aren't relying on bugs, throwing away dodges that they need to save to avoid damage, clones that can be killed and having minimal cleave when doing damage either.

Sands through glass is in every single condi mesmer build as it’s pretty much one of the only damage increasing utilities, it isn’t a huge dps increase nor is it that big a loss if you slot in a feedback instead for Matthias or mantra of concentration for Sloth so you don’t worry about the fear. This is the same problem a lot of people had with firebrand doing top level dps and some still do, it’s the support it can throw out at the same time as doing that top level damage. When you look at the weaver and tempest builds they offer 0 support and have very little to no room for it, this is the same with many classes.

I am not nor have I said mesmer should not be aloud to do dps I have however said that their capacity to slot in a single exceptional support skill with minimal dps loss needs to be taken into account just as it should be with firebrand which is over performing too. If the bug ever gets fixed and the clone mirage build is doing about 32-34k that seems about right for a class that has some of the strongest utilities in the game for PvE and has one of the easiest set ups you can get.

Name any other build except firebrand doing more damage than condi mirage that will not lose a ton of damage for using another utility skill.

while i agree this axe ambush bug should be fixed asap , so they can balance mirage which is mess .

i think after bug fix it will go down to 30-34k dps , so lets check other build around there

https://lucky-noobs.com/dps-tabelle-07-11-17/

spec that has build in support :

DH (f2 f3 )banner zerkerholo (healing turret ,blind , immob)condi rev (might stack , group heal ,backup alacrity )firebrand ( they have like everything with reasonable cost of their dps )tempest (rebound ,water overload for no dmg phase, gale song )soulbeast(stance share )

spec that has good cc with their meta dps buildHoloDHZerker

skills that can be replaced with other utilityshattering below on zerkerToF on DHviper nest on soulbeast .

before changing any skills , mirage is already behind other class in term of utilities.the only spec that has literally no utilities like mirage is power staff weaver and their dps is also broken level without any bug .

"If the bug ever gets fixed and the clone mirage build is doing about 32-34k that seems about right for a class that has some of the strongest utilities in the game for PvE and has one of the easiest set ups you can get."

problem with this is your arguably strongest utilities aren't going to save you from wiping if your group doesn't have enough aoe dmg or cc .let's say for sloth you can take a mirage with nearly zero aoe and feedback or you can take a DH with actual aoe and WoR which has longer duration than feedback .and if you have good aoe you don't even need that much reflection to begin with .really , the only places mirage can shine after bug fix are still cairn and matt .

feedback is not strong ,it's only strong at matt coz condi mes is good at that boss , other wise other spec will take reflection duty instead .mantra of concentration , guess why every pug likes tempest on slothmoa , 180s cd

and here is gw2 raidar link for reality checkhttps://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/4/area-17188you can see mirage dps is broken on few bosses ,so does weaver . but for many other bosses , it is not that impressive at all and it's not even top dps for few bosses .i tried mirage in raid ,so far beside some good dps numbers i don't feel i contribute to squad much even with moa .

[Refia Montes.3205]

@apharma.3741 said:Sands through glass is in every single condi mesmer build as it’s pretty much one of the only damage increasing utilities.

It's called Crystal Sands, not Sands Through Glass. Different skills.