Group Quickness for Warrior confirmed. [Merged]

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, Odin.6487 said:

this change doesn't remove the banner slave dilemma. it just doubles down on it. 

Probably because Warriors delivering their team support role through banners was always the intent. 

Quote

 

Banners should be part of an overall support identity, not the main identity of the support role. 

 

just my 2 cents though. 

OK, but banners being removed and replaced with more DPS is not a solution to Banners being the main identity of the support role either. It's debatable banners being the main identity of warrior support role is even a problem in the first place; most (if not all) classes deliver their team support through a specific feature on the class. Why does warrior have to be different? How about you just admit you don't like banners even if they are inline with how warrior is intended to support the team and with how other classes do team support?

Again, check the link and make sure you understand why this change is being made. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[anbujackson.9564]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Probably because Warriors delivering their team support role through banners was always the intent. 

OK, but banners being removed and replaced with more DPS is not a solution to Banners being the main identity of the support role either. It's debatable banners being the main identity of warrior support role is even a problem in the first place; most (if not all) classes deliver their team support through a specific feature on the class. Why does warrior have to be different? How about you just admit you don't like banners even if they are inline with how warrior is intended to support the team and with how other classes do team support?

Again, check the link and make sure you understand why this change is being made. 

To be fair, placing a banner every 60 seconds and calling that support is NOT engaging or fun at all. Its the most passive "support" in this game. 

Then again we dont know how they will turn out but how likely is it that they will have a lower duration? Or active skills for that matter (like they used to).

Even the shout spam is hardly fun at all. I mentioned this multiple times already. Its just press and forget, no animations. Imo you want to see something happening to make it feel like you actually do something. Isnt that part of motivating you as a player, too?

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

To be fair, placing a banner every 60 seconds and calling that support is NOT engaging or fun at all. Its the most passive "support" in this game. 

Then again we dont know how they will turn out but how likely is it that they will have a lower duration? Or active skills for that matter (like they used to).

Even the shout spam is hardly fun at all. I mentioned this multiple times already. Its just press and forget, no animations. Imo you want to see something happening to make it feel like you actually do something. Isnt that part of motivating you as a player, too?

Not being fun or engaging is subjective ... but that doesn't change the fact that banners ARE the method to deliver the team support role on Warrior. LIke you say, we don't know how it's going change so, it's WAY to early to complain about how 'not fun' the quickness implementation will be. 

Animations don't motivate me as a player; success does. I don't care what things are called or how they work ... as long as I can use them effectively to get results. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Odin.6487]

13 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK, but banners being removed and replaced with more DPS is not a solution to Banners being the main identity of the support role either.

of course it doesnt solve it. my first statement was coming from a place that most warrior players dont like being banners slaves. its not fun, nor is it engaging. 

 

But, since you and anet seem to think alike, and think banners are so cool and hip, then banners need more than just a boon and squad change. 

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

banners ARE the method to deliver the team support role on Warrior.

therein lies the issue, a large majority of warriors don't want banners to be the delivery method. It just shows that once again, Anet is out of touch with what the players actually want and instead either listens to the vocal minority or forces a playstyle that no one wants. 

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Odin.6487 said:

therein lies the issue, a large majority of warriors don't want banners to be the delivery method. It just shows that once again, Anet is out of touch with what the players actually want and instead either listens to the vocal minority or forces a playstyle that no one wants. 

Except not catering to a portion of players isn't a problem ... because Anet can't do that anyways.

Anet have to choose SOMETHING to allow warriors to support the team and banners as that choice was established since the beginning of the game. It's banners. Don't like it? Make another choice. Anet has given us LOTS of options to choose from. The fact you (or anyone else) don't like banners isn't a reason for Anet to reconsider how they implement team support. 

It's funny to see all the hate on banners ...it's literally the only reason warrior had any appeal to being included in an optimal team since forever. But you convinced yourself something 'not-banners' would somehow be better. You have no idea if that's true, but it's the premise of your desire to hate on them. Weird. 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[felix.2386]

16 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Probably because Warriors delivering their team support role through banners was always the intent. 

 

yes a trash lazy design thats also boring.

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, felix.2386 said:

yes a trash lazy design thats also boring.

Sure, the current implementation is ... no reason to use the current implementation to complain the new one will be the same. We just don't know ... but of course that doesn't stop people from complaining about something they know nothing about I guess. 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[felix.2386]

14 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

Anet have to choose SOMETHING to allow warriors to support the team and banners as that choice was established since the beginning of the game.

Yes, and clearly now they also CHOOSE to redo banner, when they finally realize clearly nobody like this BS design.

it's also their choice, finally after years, by looking at how people are disgusted by it and how they game started plummet after all these garbage designs

Edited June 10, 2022 by felix.2386

[Obtena.7952]

12 minutes ago, felix.2386 said:

Yes, and clearly now they also CHOOSE to redo banner, when they finally realize clearly nobody like this BS design.

Right ... I don't disagree with that. I mean, Anet has shown they are willing to completely revamp these kinds of things ... so maybe people should stop being so hung up about the name and wait until it's actually in game before trashing on something they have no idea about. 

Frankly, if they maintain the concept of 'banners', it's still likely to be some kind of ... banner. I don't think the concept is terrible, but I think it's dated based on the structure of the new content we have which requires a high degree of mobility. Stationary banners do this poorly and THAT will be the deciding factor in whether the new implementation is effective or not. Other team buffs from other classes tend to be centric on the player, not an object. I hope this is considered in Anet's new implementation. THAT will be my platform for a complaint. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's funny to see all the hate on banners ...it's literally the only reason warrior had any appeal to being included in an optimal team since forever. But you convinced yourself something 'not-banners' would somehow be better. You have no idea if that's true, but it's the premise of your desire to hate on them. Weird. 

I don't think you truly grasp why people hate banners in their current form...

[Xaylin.1860]

24 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I don't think you truly grasp why people hate banners in their current form...

To be fair, Turrets, Glyphs, Shouts or Mantras - or Elixirs for that matter - are no bit more engaging than Banners when looking at their impact on gameplay. Some might be 'mobile' but it's still just a fire and forget playstyle. Even Wells or Spirits are basically only fancier animations in the end. Meaning, that's not really a Banner issue. ANet won't reinvent the wheel in the next update. Banners will most likely gain boons and remain somewhat similar to Spirits or Turrets. It's overall skill design of certain Utilities in GW2 so it's probably better to not expect too much change in this department.

 

Since people talked about crit chance earlier: Elementalists and, until Virtuosos were introduced, Mesmers were basically in the same boat as Warriors. So let's not have a 'We are the only ones...'-discussion here. It's not true. I do agree that Arms trait might have to be looked at. However, I also think that adding crit chance to Berserker could be a more interesting (and thematically fitting) approach than changing Arms.

[Hotride.2187]

20 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Not being fun or engaging is subjective ... but that doesn't change the fact that banners ARE the method to deliver the team support role on Warrior.

"I think in a box and so should you"

fb mantras are boring AF and are still 50 times more interesting (well, were, before they got turned to ammo) than banners

Edited June 10, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I don't think you truly grasp why people hate banners in their current form...

Well, considering they are going to change and the game can't cater to some people, it's not really that valuable for me to think about it. 

1 hour ago, Hotride.2187 said:

"I think in a box and so should you"

fb mantras are boring AF and are still 50 times more interesting (well, were, before they got turned to ammo) than banners

It's not about thinking in a box; it's about recognizing that Anet is using banners as the method to implement team support roles. OK. I mean, this isn't a discussion about why the current banner implementation isn't interesting so ?

Edited June 10, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, considering they are going to change and the game can't cater to some people, it's not really that valuable for me to think about it. 

Then you fail to understand what people are concerned about and why they dislike banners to begin with. It isn't because they are something tangentially related to support. Warriors want a support build that is distinct from banners. What they don't want is the constant babysitting of the banners and ferrying them around. But because speed clearing like the extra stats there is concern that removing of those stats and putting something bland in their place will leave warrior in a no mans land where they are not wanted in any game mode.

However, since they are supposedly getting rid of the stats that lets them buff Warrior damage elsewhere as they will no longer be getting increased stats from the 'support but actually DPS' build.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Then you fail to understand what people are concerned about and why they dislike banners to begin with. It isn't because they are something tangentially related to support. Warriors want a support build that is distinct from banners. What they don't want is the constant babysitting of the banners and ferrying them around. But because speed clearing like the extra stats there is concern that removing of those stats and putting something bland in their place will leave warrior in a no mans land where they are not wanted in any game mode.

However, since they are supposedly getting rid of the stats that lets them buff Warrior damage elsewhere as they will no longer be getting increased stats from the 'support but actually DPS' build.

Maybe, but that's neither here nor there for this discussion. The change isn't about some people not liking banners, it's about Anet bringing Warrior into the fold of 'roles' for team instanced content. 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, felix.2386 said:

The change is about peoiple not liking banners, because it already bring warrior in the fold of roles for team instance content

What you say just isn't true. Anet TOLD us the reason they are changing banners is to give warriors a quickness role, inline with the three roles they spec'ed for team instanced content. Warriors do NOT currently fill any of those three roles. 

Also, if the change is about people not liking banners, then why isn't the change getting rid of the banners people don't like? 🤔

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Lighter.5631]

14 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

What you say just isn't true. Anet TOLD us the reason they are changing banners is to give warriors a quickness role, inline with the three roles they spec'ed for team instanced content. Warriors do NOT currently fill any of those three roles. 

 

Yes, remake the irreplaceable stats role to a easily replaceable quickness role.

if it's not for people being too unsatisfied with banners, then it is just a straight downgrade and a waste of development money and poor management decision.

[Obtena.7952]

48 minutes ago, Lighter.5631 said:

Yes, remake the irreplaceable stats role to a easily replaceable quickness role.

if it's not for people being too unsatisfied with banners, then it is just a straight downgrade and a waste of development money and poor management decision.

Hey ...better buckle up then because it's banners and quickness. Outside of that, we don't know what is in store. Personally, I suspect they won't remove the static stats, because banners still need to be relevant to a single player not using the trait somehow while still being unique across 5 banner skills in the set. The quickness will be introduced through the trait. HOPEFULLY, banners become more 'mobile'. 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Grand Marshal.4098]

56 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Hey ...better buckle up then because it's banners and quickness. Outside of that, we don't know what is in store. Personally, I suspect they won't remove the static stats, because banners still need to be relevant to a single player not using the trait somehow while still being unique across 5 banner skills in the set. The quickness will be introduced through the trait. HOPEFULLY, banners become more 'mobile'. 

That would give life to them in competetive modes as wel, since so far the only support warrior has seen in the form of shout support, which is redundant in all of it's forms, as heals and cleanses are far better in other professions and shouts don't provide anything outside of some occasional might and cleanse via rune that is and after the warrior sacrfices all their bar for these insignificant spammable heal/cleanse effects.

I would want to see some form of mobility in the banners with the flipover skill we have discussed in the forum, as to provide some raw stats and an unique quick buff in the form of a boonburst (the greatest game changer for me would be the flip to finish/revive in battle standard and a flip to aoe stunbreak/give 5 stab stacks to allies via banner of defense) with no clunky pick-up gameplay involved.

Could not care less about quickness, Firebrands and Scrappers in zergs already cover that and funnily enough PvE is even more covered, since you are not looking directly for the role there, but also the DPS to justify the pick in the comp. A commander can turn an eye to the other side in a wvw squad of 25+ if you build is gimmicky, but in PvE it will be even worse for warrior to compete, should it lose the raw stats and has very bad access to other boons.

I am hoping for a simultaneous Discipline/Tactics rework in terms of splitting some support options between the two and the least I'd want for shouts is to share a boon each to promote some of that team focus. At which I'd argue for less boons in the potential new banners and more of a strong active effect (like Facets) which affects allies positively in a form (stunbreak aoe, heal aoe, % dmg increases buff, next 3 attacks will crit buff and the classic revive/finish for elite).

The possibilities are endless, Anet will manage to mmake the worst out of this rework, not for us 10 players, but for everyone who knows warrior. I am sure of it. 

Not to mention how warrior would need some built-in AoE heal and other things before becoming a support. But I went in detail over some things I would want to see in the past and don't want to repeat myself. It's not like they will see.

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

The possibilities are endless, Anet will manage to mmake the worst out of this rework, not for us 10 players, but for everyone who knows warrior. I am sure of it.

 

Well, if that's the case, it really doesn't matter what anyone thinks or wants does it. 

[Mesket.5728]

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

What you say just isn't true. Anet TOLD us the reason they are changing banners is to give warriors a quickness role

No. They TOLD us they are changing banners and spirits to standarize buffs. Then they said they'll toss quickness there and alacrity there.

[Obtena.7952]

47 minutes ago, Mesket.5728 said:

No. They TOLD us they are changing banners and spirits to standarize buffs. Then they said they'll toss quickness there and alacrity there.

Seems to me you are just being pedantic to argue ... about what I'm not sure because what I said is true. 

Again, if you are having problems remembering what Anet said ... here you go:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/guild-wars-2-end-of-dragons-strike-missions-balance-and-rewards/

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

 

20 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

It's funny to see all the hate on banners ...it's

 

Literally the only reason warrior had any appeal to being included in an optimal team since forever.

 

But you convinced yourself something 'not-banners' would somehow be better. You have no idea if that's true, but it's the premise of your desire to hate on them. Weird. 

 

A flicker of clarity.

We don't have to do the whole "argument" thing tonight, I'm tired. but I found that surprisingly lucid.

Warriors don't hate banners. They don't hate the option. They hate that the rest of the class is so hot-dog water that the only reason they get slotted into teams is because their least engaging build happens to be optimal, and that Anet is insisting on fixing that instead of anything else.

Like please.

Fix the rest first. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Mesket.5728]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Seems to me you are just being pedantic to argue

Fighting fire with fire.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Seems to me you are just being pedantic to argue ...

 

Pot meet Kettle much?