Group Quickness for Warrior confirmed. [Merged]

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

47 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

 

A flicker of clarity.

We don't have to do the whole "argument" thing tonight, I'm tired. but I found that surprisingly lucid.

Warriors don't hate banners. They don't hate the option. They hate that the rest of the class is so hot-dog water that the only reason they get slotted into teams is because their least engaging build happens to be optimal, and that Anet is insisting on fixing that instead of anything else.

Like please.

Fix the rest first. 

Silver lining Azure: if they divorce the support build and DPS build from each other then they can raise the damage on the DPS build while making sure the support build stays in it's lane with boon duration requirements.

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, Mesket.5728 said:

Fighting fire with fire.

There isn't a fight to be had here though. We are getting banners with quickness. It's a done deal. I don't get what your disagreement with me is about. What I said was true. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Lighter.5631]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There isn't a fight to be had here though. We are getting banners with quickness. It's a done deal. I don't get what your disagreement with me is about. What I said was true. 

And you never had any point to make posts here as well, if all you say is truth, which we all know that the truth is warrior sucks, and is the reason why we post complaints here, to complain about truth and reality, that is why people argue with you.

if all you do is say something we all already know, why keep posting? why waste your own time? are you that pointless? 90% of your posts are basically pointless.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Lighter.5631

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

And you never had any point to make posts here as well, if all you say is truth-.

 

Not true.

Obtena makes it very easy to construct arguments against the current balancing direction, since they constantly take the stance of "Arenanet's gonna do/has done/is doing it, so it must be right.". While arguing to change their mind is unwinnable (since they never take a stance that deviates from [Anet has not made a bad decision, therefore any complaints are wrong]), always argue for the people who may see the post in the future. 

Basically, treat this as Target Golem [Indestructible]

Odds are a good portion of the changes made in the game are deliberate, which means arguing in this way aligns Obtena at least partially with the systems developers. 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lighter.5631]

2 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Not true.

Obtena makes it very easy to construct arguments against the current balancing direction, since they constantly take the stance of "Arenanet's gonna do/has done/is doing it, so it must be right.". While arguing to change their mind is unwinnable (since they never take a stance that deviates from [Anet has not made a bad decision and should change it], always argue for the people who may see the post in the future. 

 

Basically Target Golem [Indestructible]

i'm pretty sure it's not really they, but mostly Obtena.

tbh we can make easily make arguments against the reality that is already presented to us by anet. without this Obtena, since we all can read what anet wrote.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 minute ago, Lighter.5631 said:

i'm pretty sure it's not really they, but mostly Obtena.

tbh we can make easily make arguments against the reality that is already presented to us by anet. without this Obtena, since we all can read what anet wrote.

 

True, but that's also boring. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Lighter.5631 said:

And you never had any point to make posts here as well

That's untrue ... it's pretty obvious to me people are not aware of Anet's communication about these changes. I'm giving that information to them. Even if they want to ignore it, other people can go and see for themselves if they want to not be ignorant about what's happening. 

But by all means ... apply your double standard. I don't see you chirping anyone else because of not having a point to make. You just do it to me because you don't like what I have to say and I'm ruining your banner hate party. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Mesket.5728]

17 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Seems to me you are just being pedantic to argue ... about what I'm not sure because what I said is true. 

Again, if you are having problems remembering what Anet said ... here you go:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/news/guild-wars-2-end-of-dragons-strike-missions-balance-and-rewards/

 

 

"Since banners and spirits are unique effects, warrior and ranger break from the simple system of shared boons and conditions that allows professions to share common roles. While this creates certain unique group roles like the banner warrior, it also strongly limits play.

Warrior players have been telling us for years that they’d like to be something other than a banner warrior in groups! We agree, and we’re going to rework banners and spirits to fit our shared boon system and open new options for warrior and ranger players. Both professions will have access to new boon support roles using revamped banners, spirits, and related traits."

 

This article is precisely why you are wrong and lying.

 

On 6/10/2022 at 11:31 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

What you say just isn't true. Anet TOLD us the reason they are changing banners is to give warriors a quickness role,

 

17 hours ago, Mesket.5728 said:

No. They TOLD us they are changing banners and spirits to standarize buffs. Then they said they'll toss quickness here and alacrity there.

 

Nothing better than beating someone at their own game, with their very own signature moves.

 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Mesket.5728 said:

 

"Since banners and spirits are unique effects, warrior and ranger break from the simple system of shared boons and conditions that allows professions to share common roles. While this creates certain unique group roles like the banner warrior, it also strongly limits play.

Warrior players have been telling us for years that they’d like to be something other than a banner warrior in groups! We agree, and we’re going to rework banners and spirits to fit our shared boon system and open new options for warrior and ranger players. Both professions will have access to new boon support roles using revamped banners, spirits, and related traits."

 

This article is precisely why you are wrong and lying.

The article tells us we are getting a rework of banners to fit the shared boon system for shared common roles ... which we knew was including alacrity and quickness. Anet later confirmed Warrior with quickness. Therefore, Anet DID tell us they are changing banners to give quickness role. That is what I told you. There isn't a lie here.

I mean, if you want to accuse me of lying, then explain exactly the part of what I said that isn't true, THEN we can talk about it. Otherwise, you are dismissed.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

 

20 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Silver lining Azure: if they divorce the support build and DPS build from each other then they can raise the damage on the DPS build while making sure the support build stays in it's lane with boon duration requirements.

 

There is no silver lining until I see patch notes on the live build supporting it. I learned my lesson years ago.

 

Put it in my hand, then I'll be optimistic. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

55 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

 

There is no silver lining until I see patch notes on the live build supporting it. I learned my lesson years ago.

 

Put it in my hand, then I'll be optimistic. 

True...

[Groggyfrog.9754]

I think they should make the banners super uninspired and alac or quickness giving. Let them tank the profession into the ground. Maybe then they'll take a look at revamping the profession as a whole, It needs some update.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Groggyfrog.9754
Format

[God.5728]

On 6/12/2022 at 10:04 AM, Groggyfrog.9754 said:

I think they should make the banners super uninspired and alac or quickness giving. Let them tank the profession into the ground. Maybe then they'll take a look at revamping the profession as a whole, It needs some update.

 

Just watch Anet spend months 'reworking banners' only to replace swiftness for quickness on banner summon/pick up. 🤣

And you'd have to build something like full Diviners to get uptime to 50%.

I don't have legendaries and I do not want to have to replace all my berserker/assassin gears.

Edited June 13, 2022 by God.5728

[Geoff Fey.1035]

38 minutes ago, God.5728 said:

Just watch Anet spend months 'reworking banners' only to replace swiftness for quickness on banner summon/pick up. 🤣

And you'd have to build something like full Diviners to get uptime to 50%.

I don't have legendaries and I do not want to have to replace all my berserker/assassin gears.

If the banners work similar to current, I'm hopeful that they'd make it so that while inside the banners radius you can maintain 100% quickness without diviners. Being restricted to a small area for melee in a highly mobile combat game is already a huge hinderance (as every single person who has touched Bladesworn is intimately aware of). The "downside" is that there's still a cooldown when you pick up the banner and/or if you let it expire, so that means the group loses out on quickness until you get it slammed back down.

It all depends on what their big change is going to be. They were talking a big game with Banners & Spirits being "overhauled" but ANet's overhauls range from "no warriors use offhand sword we're adding 10 might to the flipover skill which does power instead of condi for some reason but we'll nerf this if it turns out to be OP" (Warrior offhand sword) to "changed the animation, changed the skill name, changed it from a pull combo to a shadowstep that causes a secondary attack, additional effects, changed the animation, changed the resource costs but over the course of 4 years we'll return it to nearly the exact same as the original version except no cc and lower damage" (Revenant offhand sword, Grasping Shadows->Deathstrike".

I'm hopeful they are actually going to do a meaningful balance update for Warrior but to me it feels much more likely they'll just "change swiftness to quickness on banners" and that's it...

 

[Jzaku.9765]

2 hours ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

If the banners work similar to current, I'm hopeful that they'd make it so that while inside the banners radius you can maintain 100% quickness without diviners. Being restricted to a small area for melee in a highly mobile combat game is already a huge hinderance (as every single person who has touched Bladesworn is intimately aware of). The "downside" is that there's still a cooldown when you pick up the banner and/or if you let it expire, so that means the group loses out on quickness until you get it slammed back down.

It all depends on what their big change is going to be. They were talking a big game with Banners & Spirits being "overhauled" but ANet's overhauls range from "no warriors use offhand sword we're adding 10 might to the flipover skill which does power instead of condi for some reason but we'll nerf this if it turns out to be OP" (Warrior offhand sword) to "changed the animation, changed the skill name, changed it from a pull combo to a shadowstep that causes a secondary attack, additional effects, changed the animation, changed the resource costs but over the course of 4 years we'll return it to nearly the exact same as the original version except no cc and lower damage" (Revenant offhand sword, Grasping Shadows->Deathstrike".

I'm hopeful they are actually going to do a meaningful balance update for Warrior but to me it feels much more likely they'll just "change swiftness to quickness on banners" and that's it...

 

In the history of PVE every time a class is able to be stacked to provide perma quickness uptime with 0% boon duration, it gets nerfed hard. Happened twice so far with Guardian and Chrono, and is about to happen again with Catalyst. You are supposed to have a significant DPS loss in exchange for providing these boons. Firebrand being an exception, unfortunately. Imagine competing with Firebrand. 

[Grand Marshal.4098]

2 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

In the history of PVE every time a class is able to be stacked to provide perma quickness uptime with 0% boon duration, it gets nerfed hard. Happened twice so far with Guardian and Chrono, and is about to happen again with Catalyst. You are supposed to have a significant DPS loss in exchange for providing these boons. Firebrand being an exception, unfortunately. Imagine competing with Firebrand. 

I seriously can't see how they will rework banners without raw stats to compete in this homogenized role that no one asked for warrior to cover. 

And they will still be immobile banners im sure. 😂

[Jzaku.9765]

4 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I seriously can't see how they will rework banners without raw stats to compete in this homogenized role that no one asked for warrior to cover. 

And they will still be immobile banners im sure. 😂

I fully disagree with this ridiculous notion - that the ~5 regular posters in this subforum keep insisting on - that "nobody asked for" Warrior to be less one-dimensional. I would implore you to broaden your horizon beyond this tiny little pond.

And specifically, to be open to the opinions of the endgame PVE side of the game, which is just as important as the PvP/WvW crowd. Which is to say, not very important, but it's literally what this Banner change was for. Throwing tantrums about how this change will probably barely affect Warrior's performance in PvP/WvW is almost as silly as complaining that your fries are bad because they gave you the wrong burger. 

Regardless, we have quite literally zero idea what this Banner change entails. It boggles me how this thread got to 8 pages with literally zero info. 

[Fueki.4753]

29 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

In the history of PVE every time a class is able to be stacked to provide perma quickness uptime with 0% boon duration, it gets nerfed hard. Happened twice so far with Guardian and Chrono, and is about to happen again with Catalyst. You are supposed to have a significant DPS loss in exchange for providing these boons. Firebrand being an exception, unfortunately. Imagine competing with Firebrand. 

Warrior DPS already has been nerfed through the ground and Arenanet will keep finding ways to unreasonably nerf it, so it'd deserve the 100% uptime without investing into concentration.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Jzaku.9765]

1 minute ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Warrior DPS already has been nerfed through the ground and Arenanet will keep finding ways to unreasonably nerf it, so it'd deserve the 100% uptime without investing into concentration.

DPS Warrior as it is right now is in a perfectly decent spot in terms of damage. The actual issue is that nobody really cares about a DPS that can only DPS - see also: something like Weaver. In current year GW2 the most valued DPS builds are ones that do dps while offering utility/support/ranged in some way (read: Firebrand, Scourge, Virt, Mech).

Which is why Warrior being so one-dimensional is the core issue. Take away banners and literally all Warrior has, with all 3 elite specs, is DPS. Everything else hasn't been updated in powerlevel since Core GW2 and totally insignificant in the face of today's builds.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

1 hour ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

I fully disagree with this ridiculous notion - that the ~5 regular posters in this subforum keep insisting on - that "nobody asked for" Warrior to be less one-dimensional. I would implore you to broaden your horizon beyond this tiny little pond.

And specifically, to be open to the opinions of the endgame PVE side of the game, which is just as important as the PvP/WvW crowd. Which is to say, not very important, but it's literally what this Banner change was for. Throwing tantrums about how this change will probably barely affect Warrior's performance in PvP/WvW is almost as silly as complaining that your fries are bad because they gave you the wrong burger. 

Regardless, we have quite literally zero idea what this Banner change entails. It boggles me how this thread got to 8 pages with literally zero info. 

You do you, I do me 😛

People get too sentimental over the forum anyway. It's not like good or bad suggestions are going to be reviewed. 

Tantrums? Im just a customer complaining about this dogshit balancing, I think we all can do this. 

 

Besides my meaningful suggestions outnumber my chill posts. Who cares about quickness anyway,not me for sure. What about broadening my horizons? People acting like balancing is some epic big brain strat that requires careful planning. 

EDIT: PvE warriors will be bannerslaves forever, with or without quickness. /shrug

Edited June 13, 2022 by Grand Marshal.4098

[Mesket.5728]

37 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

DPS Warrior as it is right now is in a perfectly decent spot in terms of damage. The actual issue is that nobody really cares about a DPS that can only DPS - see also: something like Weaver. In current year GW2 the most valued DPS builds are ones that do dps while offering utility/support/ranged in some way (read: Firebrand, Scourge, Virt, Mech).

Which is why Warrior being so one-dimensional is the core issue. Take away banners and literally all Warrior has, with all 3 elite specs, is DPS. Everything else hasn't been updated in powerlevel since Core GW2 and totally insignificant in the face of today's builds.

I think his point is: trying to make up for delivering 3 dps specs with just a banner tweak is stupid.

Warrior didn't need better banners. Warrior needed a dedicated support mechanic. Banners as a mechanic is outdated and dull. They are iterating on a dead end. Core Warrior has no mechanic to sinergy with banners and neither do their specs. Without a proper mechanic attached to the skill (banners) the hole thing is lackluster and will never be on par or balanced against other truly dedicated support specs. What support is my F1 providing? Why am I to loose lots of dps for a standing tool? Where is then fun in that? 

In the future if they truly make a support warrior, wth are they going to do with the current banners? Change them again?

 

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

If the banners work similar to current, I'm hopeful that they'd make it so that while inside the banners radius you can maintain 100% quickness without diviners. Being restricted to a small area for melee in a highly mobile combat game is already a huge hinderance (as every single person who has touched Bladesworn is intimately aware of). The "downside" is that there's still a cooldown when you pick up the banner and/or if you let it expire, so that means the group loses out on quickness until you get it slammed back down.

It all depends on what their big change is going to be. They were talking a big game with Banners & Spirits being "overhauled" but ANet's overhauls range from "no warriors use offhand sword we're adding 10 might to the flipover skill which does power instead of condi for some reason but we'll nerf this if it turns out to be OP" (Warrior offhand sword) to "changed the animation, changed the skill name, changed it from a pull combo to a shadowstep that causes a secondary attack, additional effects, changed the animation, changed the resource costs but over the course of 4 years we'll return it to nearly the exact same as the original version except no cc and lower damage" (Revenant offhand sword, Grasping Shadows->Deathstrike".

I'm hopeful they are actually going to do a meaningful balance update for Warrior but to me it feels much more likely they'll just "change swiftness to quickness on banners" and that's it...

 

I'm going to call it right now ... being in the quickness role is highly anticipated to require some amount of concentration stat to have 100% quickness uptime on team. Also consider no other class has any accommodation to avoid this requirement for their roles ... they use Diviners as well to achieve their 100% uptime boons. I would be shocked if Anet had some special consideration for warriors to avoid concentration stat to achieve 100% quickness uptime. Set your expectations according to what is real, not what you think should happen.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Jzaku.9765]

9 minutes ago, Mesket.5728 said:

I think his point is: trying to make up for delivering 3 dps specs with just a banner tweak is stupid.

Warrior didn't need better banners. Warrior needed a dedicated support mechanic. Banners as a mechanic is outdated and dull. They are iterating on a dead end. Core Warrior has no mechanic to sinergy with banners and neither do their specs. Without a proper mechanic attached to the skill (banners) the hole thing is lackluster and will never be on par or balanced against other truly dedicated support specs. What support is my F1 providing? Why am I to loose lots of dps for a standing tool? Where is then fun in that? 

In the future if they truly make a support warrior, wth are they going to do with the current banners? Change them again?

 

Boon access through a core utility series is a huge step in the direction we are both advocating for. Perfection is the enemy of good - I don't see a reason to be angry at progress. Yes, I agree that it probably won't be enough for a full support build, but to be enough to compete in the dps-quickness space just requires Firebrand to be nerfed - all the current quickdps builds face the same wall that is competing with Firebrand. Firebrand alone sees more play than all of the potential quickdps builds combined. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Jzaku.9765

[Hotride.2187]

On 6/11/2022 at 4:45 AM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

their least engaging build happens to be optimal, and that Anet is insisting on fixing that instead of anything else.

Like please.

Fix the rest first. 

But the drive for the fix is not to improve warrior, its to remove unique buffs - I assume so they have less to worry about when designing the rest of the game.

[Fueki.4753]

21 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

But the drive for the fix is not to improve warrior, its to remove unique buffs - I assume so they have less to worry about when designing the rest of the game.

If they truly end up removing the unique buffs, it will be for no other reason than to simply make Warrior another little bit worse, so it gets played even less in organized group content.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Fueki.4753