Celestial Harbinger

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Just now, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

Before they added that extra component, the elixirs were really boring, and aside from the elite, a bit weak. Personally I absolutely love the way they added the offensive aspect to them, both in terms of impact and flavor. Not saying that the numbers are tuned perfectly though. Also I don't think comparing it to Berserker is the best approach, as in my eyes that whole elite spec redesign made it a horribly designed gimmick (from an outsider's perspective, at least).

Well they can either make a bursty spec like that have extreme damage on its utilities, or gut, destroy, absolutely eviscerate, elixir damage and make elite elixir simply corrupt a number of boons, instead of granting all conditions. So you get more offensive value out of it in any gear set, but you don't have the oppresive elite that it is now.

 

CMC was like "hurr durr brrrrr 😭😭💀 hell no this is a scary elite skill " then they decide to mega buff it.

Uncreative, unfun, garbo. 

And oh goodness gracious! I wonder which stat enables all these dumb EoD builds that arived in the form of condi supports like Specter, Harbinger or weird condition traits in relatively power specs (Virtuoso, Willbender). COULD NEVAH BE CELE!

Goddamn then people say "why the salt?". Well, not all people enjoy abusing dumb gameplay mechanics.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

So, finally found a good harbinger roamer:

 

 

I think the main issue I have with it is the instant all boon applications (similar to ranger plasma but don't have random roll on it and don't have to pick it up) and the impressive amount of cleanse.  I don't have an opinion on the stuns at the moment other than I think those were well timed and I was tapped out due to attrition anyway.

Can a good cele harb be beaten? Probably by a stronger druid than myself.  Is it powerful? I think very, very powerful.  

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

So, finally found a good harbinger roamer:

 

 

I think the main issue I have with it is the instant all boon applications (similar to ranger plasma but don't have random roll on it and don't have to pick it up) and the impressive amount of cleanse.  I don't have an opinion on the stuns at the moment other than I think those were well timed and I was tapped out due to attrition anyway.

Can a good cele harb be beaten? Probably by a stronger druid than myself.  Is it powerful? I think very, very powerful.  

you ate almost all his attack 😄

[Gotejjeken.1267]

46 minutes ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

you ate almost all his attack 😄

 

Not a problem; that build is running Trailblazer so was never worried about HP.  Was specifically the boon reapplication / stab access and good clear.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Celestial is OP on any class that can effectively stack boons particularly might. Celestial has all rounded stats which means along with the might stacking you effectively have WAY more offensive stats on both condi and power then a glass build. Glass build cannot sustain the boon duration because there is no concentration. Considering how this game works even healing power works generally for everyone as it helps scale your heals whether it be your heal skill or regens.

As far as gear optimization goes, I love how people use this as a way to downplay celestial stats, you are still losing a chunk of a stat that celestial provides. You can optimize your gear all you want it still wont give the extra stats celestial can provide.

Again you pit 2 classes a glass vs celestial same knowledge of the class same build same a lot of things I can tell you celestial will always one up the glass build.

The reason why Harbinger in particular is so strong with celestial stats is because it has tons of boon uptime, along with how it scales with healing power.

Again people defending celestial stats are 1. abusing it themselves and don't want their training wheel to be taken away. 2. really have no clue how strong celestial stats is.

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Celestial is OP on any class that can effectively stack boons particularly might. Celestial has all rounded stats which means along with the might stacking you effectively have WAY more offensive stats on both condi and power then a glass build. Glass build cannot sustain the boon duration because there is no concentration. Considering how this game works even healing power works generally for everyone as it helps scale your heals whether it be your heal skill or regens.

As far as gear optimization goes, I love how people use this as a way to downplay celestial stats, you are still losing a chunk of a stat that celestial provides. You can optimize your gear all you want it still wont give the extra stats celestial can provide.

Again you pit 2 classes a glass vs celestial same knowledge of the class same build same a lot of things I can tell you celestial will always one up the glass build.

The reason why Harbinger in particular is so strong with celestial stats is because it has tons of boon uptime, along with how it scales with healing power.

Again people defending celestial stats are 1. abusing it themselves and don't want their training wheel to be taken away. 2. really have no clue how strong celestial stats is.

 

3. The people losing live in denial...I have been accused of running celestial even when I was full diviner+couple of cavalier gear....it's mental, even more sad people thinking that removing celestial will suddenly make things change for them.

After celestial you'll realize that the same players can replicate more or less the same results with other gear stats...so you lot will go after another gear stat..."remove X, makes everything OP QQ"

[Gotejjeken.1267]

21 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

3. The people losing live in denial...I have been accused of running celestial even when I was full diviner+couple of cavalier gear....it's mental, even more sad people thinking that removing celestial will suddenly make things change for them.

After celestial you'll realize that the same players can replicate more or less the same results with other gear stats...so you lot will go after another gear stat..."remove X, makes everything OP QQ"

 

I mean I'm on the fence with the celestial deal, but can say that the added concentration + expertise is over the top.  You said you stacked diviner + cavalier, but doing that you miss a slight toughness increase and a whole lot of vitality.  

I think the problem people are getting at here is 'more or less the same results' != 'the same results'.  As in a perfect world Celestial should be non-viable for any build that isn't a hybrid--and even then should do less than if you mix your gear stats. 

Really the reason I'm on the fence is it's not an easy issue, because boons also play a role in this.  Like the above duel I'm not mad about cele  gear, but do think the boon application + cele gear is most likely over the top.  Having one or the other won't break that build.

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

deadeye deadeye deadeye, nerf this stealth..... can't fight what you can't see. why does this class gets pass.

[Dr Meta.3158]

I think we need some good sic em soulbeast players to start roaming wvw a bit harder. Show the people in this thread what true oppression looks like.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

10 minutes ago, Metaologist.2487 said:

I think we need some good sic em soulbeast players to start roaming wvw a bit harder. Show the people in this thread what true oppression looks like.

 

Trying, but anet thought it was cool to give every class and their mother a hate bubble against projectiles 😂. 

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

i'd take 20 cele harbingers over 3 thieves or 10 rangers... idk what u weird people always gotta cry about

[Hotride.2187]

4 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

thinking that removing celestial will suddenly make things change for them.

Well then nerfing it is a no brainer? Since with "skillful" min-maxing you get "equal" results. What do you care then?

[Salt Mode.3780]

5 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

3. The people losing live in denial...I have been accused of running celestial even when I was full diviner+couple of cavalier gear....it's mental, even more sad people thinking that removing celestial will suddenly make things change for them.

After celestial you'll realize that the same players can replicate more or less the same results with other gear stats...so you lot will go after another gear stat..."remove X, makes everything OP QQ"

I dont know if you know how to do math, putting diviner+cavalier is still a stat loss compare to full celestial. Not only do you not have Condi+Expertise but you are also missing out on a chunk of toughness and healing power.

Again read carefully to posts before quoting them.

The concentration and expertise added to celestial is the same as the concentration in minstrels gear and same expertise as trailblazer gears. 

You can min max all you want again "As far as gear optimization goes, I love how people use this as a way to downplay celestial stats, you are still losing a chunk of a stat that celestial provides. You can optimize your gear all you want it still wont give the extra stats celestial can provide." 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Bizgurk.5639]

2 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

The concentration and expertise added to celestial is the same as the concentration in minstrels gear and same expertise as trailblazer gears.

I agree with your opinion and almost everything you said. But this one is not entirely right. Celestial gear has slightly more expertise and concentration on certain gear slots than trailblazer or minstrel. Not much though, it's just six stats. But having six more on several attributes is almost like having a few infusion slots more compared to "the same as", which is why I had the urge to correct you.

[GoldenPants.1870]

On 4/20/2022 at 10:44 AM, bluberblasen.9684 said:

Harbinger and specter need big nerfs in wvw.

No, neither does tbh, Have you ever tried power harb or power spectre ? 

 

Both are miserable compared to the condition versions.

[Arheundel.6451]

10 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I dont know if you know how to do math, putting diviner+cavalier is still a stat loss compare to full celestial. Not only do you not have Condi+Expertise but you are also missing out on a chunk of toughness and healing power.

Again read carefully to posts before quoting them.

The concentration and expertise added to celestial is the same as the concentration in minstrels gear and same expertise as trailblazer gears. 

You can min max all you want again "As far as gear optimization goes, I love how people use this as a way to downplay celestial stats, you are still losing a chunk of a stat that celestial provides. You can optimize your gear all you want it still wont give the extra stats celestial can provide." 

You can assume all you want...but I won't be here spoiling all I accomplished by theorycrafting, min/max and go out there testing builds, fail and go back to drawing board.....I do that rather than come on the forums after a single loss using a copy/paste build and that's where better knowledge of the game comes from.

I am not here trying to convince anybody...oh god no....it's a waste of time trying to convince the angry mob...I am here though just to make things right, first and foremost, you lot must stop talking about "balanace" like you give an actual kitten what balance is really about, we had celestial amulet even in PvP...the lots of you cried even there asking it to be removed...and after they removed it..you simply went after another amulet.....and then another...and then another ...then another...then you moved to the skills...then utilities. The gamemode got abandonded then, the meta got stale, no diversity available, no options available and only few professions able to make use of what's left.......all because a bunch of "know better than anybody else" lost their little duel with their cookiecutter build and the world came down crushing on their over inflated ego.

We won't remove anything from WvW, if you want very few options...go PVP......if we want talk about actual balance then again prove that you know what you're talking about! Anybody who come rushing on the forum shouting :" Class X is broken" without specify exactly what it's OP...that person doesn't understand anything of balance, if you don't know what the problem is...that means you don't even know how to play the profession you're complaining about and that automatically invalidate anything you have to say! Let me tell you how smart feedback works :

-"Ok harbinger is overperforming, because those elixirs have poor animations, let's make animations clearer to understand, let's start from there and if more needed, we will work from there"

Removing celestial would not fix the lack of clear animations on harbinger or make grenades less oppressive or whatever more uses celestial, removing gear only makes the game worst, less options to play with, less build crafting, less fun.

FIX FIRST THE ACTUAL kitten ISSUE WHICH IS THE SPEC ITSELF

[Exzen.2976]

25 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

You can assume all you want...but I won't be here spoiling all I accomplished by theorycrafting, min/max and go out there testing builds, fail and go back to drawing board.....I do that rather than come on the forums after a single loss using a copy/paste build and that's where better knowledge of the game comes from.

I am not here trying to convince anybody...oh god no....it's a waste of time trying to convince the angry mob...I am here though just to make things right, first and foremost, you lot must stop talking about "balanace" like you give an actual kitten what balance is really about, we had celestial amulet even in PvP...the lots of you cried even there asking it to be removed...and after they removed it..you simply went after another amulet.....and then another...and then another ...then another...then you moved to the skills...then utilities. The gamemode got abandonded then, the meta got stale, no diversity available, no options available and only few professions able to make use of what's left.......all because a bunch of "know better than anybody else" lost their little duel with their cookiecutter build and the world came down crushing on their over inflated ego.

We won't remove anything from WvW, if you want very few options...go PVP......if we want talk about actual balance then again prove that you know what you're talking about! Anybody who come rushing on the forum shouting :" Class X is broken" without specify exactly what it's OP...that person doesn't understand anything of balance, if you don't know what the problem is...that means you don't even know how to play the profession you're complaining about and that automatically invalidate anything you have to say! Let me tell you how smart feedback works :

-"Ok harbinger is overperforming, because those elixirs have poor animations, let's make animations clearer to understand, let's start from there and if more needed, we will work from there"

Removing celestial would not fix the lack of clear animations on harbinger or make grenades less oppressive or whatever more uses celestial, removing gear only makes the game worst, less options to play with, less build crafting, less fun.

FIX FIRST THE ACTUAL kitten ISSUE WHICH IS THE SPEC ITSELF

But the issue IS celestial stats (as well as some overperfoming skills etc).

 

Stop speaking down to everyone because you think they are only saying it because they lost a duel. There is no need to resort to that kind of behaviour when you have no idea what people have experienced. I win the vast majority of my duels, vs cele or not, but I am fully aware cele is currently op. I have also used cele and incorporated it in my builds before. Even used it in strictly full power FA builds, because it still offers so much value with the power/boon duration and defensive stats. It offers the best value for small scale and currently is actually killing diversity in roaming/small scale because other stat combinations are inferior.

 

I actually thought it was fine before it got the unnecessary buff to add concentration and expertise. Remove those in wvw only and we're golden. It doesn't need to be removed completely like the pvp amulet and it can then still be used in build craft. 

[Swagger.1459]

14 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

I win the vast majority of my duels, vs cele or not, but I am fully aware cele is currently op.

What kind of logic is that? You win most duels vs cele, yet it’s OP? Like what? Sounds like the gear needs a buff then since you win the majority of the time anyway… Right? 

 

This is wvw btw, we don’t care about your duels dictating what happens to gear in this mode that was primarily designed from large scale grouping “war” fights. The devs created an entire mode, and spent hundreds of thousands of hours and dollars combined to make and update spvp. Use it for your small scale and duel stuff. 

 

 

 

 

[Hotride.2187]

3 hours ago, Swagger.1459 said:

What kind of logic is that? You win most duels vs cele, yet it’s OP? Like what? Sounds like the gear needs a buff then since you win the majority of the time anyway

Cause he outskills most roamers and duelists by a lot. Not a difficult concept.

Stop going on about not wanting balance, if you dont want balance then you dont care about whatever the outcome is of threads like this (if there even is an outcome). If the state of the game is whatever to you and you will adapt either way, you will live also with harbringer out of the equations.

Edited April 23, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Arheundel.6451]

1 hour ago, Exzen.2976 said:

But the issue IS celestial stats (as well as some overperfoming skills etc).

 

Stop speaking down to everyone because you think they are only saying it because they lost a duel. There is no need to resort to that kind of behaviour when you have no idea what people have experienced. I win the vast majority of my duels, vs cele or not, but I am fully aware cele is currently op. I have also used cele and incorporated it in my builds before. Even used it in strictly full power FA builds, because it still offers so much value with the power/boon duration and defensive stats. It offers the best value for small scale and currently is actually killing diversity in roaming/small scale because other stat combinations are inferior.

 

I actually thought it was fine before it got the unnecessary buff to add concentration and expertise. Remove those in wvw only and we're golden. It doesn't need to be removed completely like the pvp amulet and it can then still be used in build craft. 

I don't think you understand the message I am trying to convey:

In Open WvW, people are free to run whatever the hell they want, you are not forced to fight anybody and only large scale balance matter, whoever want to force their idea of balance....can go here:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Obsidian_Sanctum

There you can create your own Fight club and put your own rules for combat, I hate the idea the entire playerbase must bend over to please a handful of individuals so they can have their little duel and upload on youtube for whatever ego boost they can get out of commenting sycophants . 

Remove this...and remove that....been there and done that, but the same lot will come again asking to remove more....because they keep losing fight , all because somebody playing a bruiser spec that survive their wambo combo and they get upset

[Exzen.2976]

43 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

What kind of logic is that? You win most duels vs cele, yet it’s OP? Like what? Sounds like the gear needs a buff then since you win the majority of the time anyway… Right? 

 

This is wvw btw, we don’t care about your duels dictating what happens to gear in this mode that was primarily designed from large scale grouping “war” fights. The devs created an entire mode, and spent hundreds of thousands of hours and dollars combined to make and update spvp. Use it for your small scale and duel stuff. 

 

 

 

 

How about no. WvW allows for many types of play. I much prefer playing wvw for smallscale/roaming.

 

I may not care about large-scale fights but I'm not being arrogant or dismissive enough to suggest that it is irrelevant and that you are playing the game mode wrong. I would appreciate the same respect in return. 

 

Also, please read posts before you come in and take things out of context. I was not using winning duels as a reason for why celestial is op. 

[Exzen.2976]

1 minute ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

I don't think you understand the message I am trying to convey:

In Open WvW, people are free to run whatever the hell they want, you are not forced to fight anybody and only large scale balance matter, whoever want to force their idea of balance....can go here:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Obsidian_Sanctum

There you can create your own Fight club and put your own rules for combat, I hate the idea the entire playerbase must bend over to please a handful of individuals so they can have their little duel and upload on youtube for whatever ego boost they can get out of commenting sycophants . 

Remove this...and remove that....been there and done that, but the same lot will come again asking to remove more....because they keep losing fight , all because somebody playing a bruiser spec that survive their wambo combo and they get upset

I'm not upset though (although it seems you are?). I'm just pointing out that cele is overpowered. It is just an opinion (fact) and it is not unreasonable to want balance in the game modes you play. 

 

And since when does only large scale balance matter? It might be that only large scale matters to you, sure, but not for everyone. WvW allows for many types of play. Especially when we consider certain classes aren't usually welcome in large scale (thief etc), that would mean anyone who plays thief should basically not play wvw according to your logic...

 

Also, why the need to throw personal insults? It's completely unnecessary.

[Zyreva.1078]

@Swagger.1459 @Arheundel.6451

Claiming "I don't care" and "small scale balance doesn't matter", yet you are trying very hard to defend blatantly op stuff. Not caring looks differently, just saying.

Also insults and derogatory comments just show your lack of actual arguments.

Edited April 23, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Swagger.1459]

49 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Cause he outskills most roamers and duelists by a lot. Not a difficult concept.

Stop going on about not wanting balance, if you dont want balance then you dont care with whatever the outcome is of threads like this (if there even is an outcome). If the state of the game is whatever to you and you will adapt either way, you will live also with harbringer out of the equations.

Oh, I see, so skill is the determining factor in the equation, not gear. Since that player can beat the majority of players in a duel who use cele, then obviosly it's not the gear... it's the players involved. So there we have it, players who struggle against someone in cele gear is because the other player is better. Thank you for helping to reinforce that!

 

No, you are right, I don't care about "duel balance" inside of wvw. You want small scale balance, then there is spvp for ya. Problem solved. 

[Exzen.2976]

2 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Oh, I see, so skill is the determining factor in the equation, not gear. Since that player can beat the majority of players in a duel who use cele, then obviosly it's not the gear... it's the players involved. So there we have it, players who struggle against someone in cele gear is because the other player is better. Thank you for helping to reinforce that!

 

No, you are right, I don't care about "duel balance" inside of wvw. You want small scale balance, then there is spvp for ya. Problem solved. 

Or your narrow-minded opinion can be ignored and the game can be balanced around all different playstyles. Problem solved.

 

Skill and gear are both factors, of course. However just because you can outskill someone who is using cele stats doesn't mean it's balanced. It's not a difficult concept to understand.