Gw2 Pay to Win or Skill to Win, Core Buids Outdated.

[Labjax.2465]

11 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Then every MMO is pay to win since you go up levels is pretty much all the MMOs making you more powerful.  WoW is pay to win by your definition but no one calls WOW pay to win. Do you want to know why?

Because expansions were never factored into the pay to win equation ever. You're taking a term that had a meaning and trying to make it mean what the words mean exactly. So if you say a phone booth is out of order, what order is it supposed to be in? Should I move it there?  Terms made of multiple words are only literally translated at the peril of the translator.

Pay to win came out at a time when games allowed you to buy power in the cash shop and you had to keep paying money to the cash shop to continue to compete.  It was endless.  MMOs sell expansions because they provide new content.  It really is that simple. If you think expansions are pay to win, you weren't there when the word was first coined. And if every MMO is pay to win then there's no point in having the term at all.

The choice to make elite specs to begin with, to balance them as better, to tie them to expansions, we can argue until we're blue in the face about whether it's "technically" "pay to win," but the reality is, it's a way to push people to spend and it relates to player power if you do competitive play. Something that is very out of place in a game that goes out of its way to remove gear treadmills from the most competitive play, but starts making sense when you consider the monetization model.

And while we're being fiddly about definitions, and this relates to what we're talking about: tons of people get the F2P model (and its cousin, the B2P model) very wrong. They talk about it as if the expectation is that everyone pays a certain amount they considered to be the "correct" amount (usually anything that relates to not paying for something considered "content" is considered taboo, meanwhile paying for cosmetics is sometimes considered taboo by the same people... yikes). But if everyone did that, it'd defeat the whole point of the model, which is the include people who can't afford to pay as much (if at all) to pad player numbers. Whether that's actually ever what the F2P or B2P model has been in reality, that's what it was sold as way back when it was getting going in games. It was never sold as "here is a way for people to money shame other players about how much they are spending on a game and look down on them at the slightest hint that they might not be putting the 'correct' amount of money possible into supporting the game." That type of stuff is very disturbing.

[Freya.9075]

3 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

The choice to make elite specs to begin with, to balance them as better, to tie them to expansions, we can argue until we're blue in the face about whether it's "technically" "pay to win," but the reality is, it's a way to push people to spend and it relates to player power if you do competitive play. Something that is very out of place in a game that goes out of its way to remove gear treadmills from the most competitive play, but starts making sense when you consider the monetization model.

And while we're being fiddly about definitions, and this relates to what we're talking about: tons of people get the F2P model (and its cousin, the B2P model) very wrong. They talk about it as if the expectation is that everyone pays a certain amount they considered to be the "correct" amount (usually anything that relates to not paying for something considered "content" is considered taboo, meanwhile paying for cosmetics is sometimes considered taboo by the same people... yikes). But if everyone did that, it'd defeat the whole point of the model, which is the include people who can't afford to pay as much (if at all) to pad player numbers. Whether that's actually ever what the F2P or B2P model has been in reality, that's what it was sold as way back when it was getting going in games. It was never sold as "here is a way for people to money shame other players about how much they are spending on a game and look down on them at the slightest hint that they might not be putting the 'correct' amount of money possible into supporting the game." That type of stuff is very disturbing.

The expectations for buying any expansion is non existent. I doubt anyone would “shame” anyone for not buying them. It’s their choice to do so or not. Even players who paid for all expansions choose to play core specs. They don’t get “shamed” for doing so either. You’re creating issues where there are none 

[Vayne.8563]

6 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

The choice to make elite specs to begin with, to balance them as better, to tie them to expansions, we can argue until we're blue in the face about whether it's "technically" "pay to win," but the reality is, it's a way to push people to spend and it relates to player power if you do competitive play. Something that is very out of place in a game that goes out of its way to remove gear treadmills from the most competitive play, but starts making sense when you consider the monetization model.

And while we're being fiddly about definitions, and this relates to what we're talking about: tons of people get the F2P model (and its cousin, the B2P model) very wrong. They talk about it as if the expectation is that everyone pays a certain amount they considered to be the "correct" amount (usually anything that relates to not paying for something considered "content" is considered taboo, meanwhile paying for cosmetics is sometimes considered taboo by the same people... yikes). But if everyone did that, it'd defeat the whole point of the model, which is the include people who can't afford to pay as much (if at all) to pad player numbers. Whether that's actually ever what the F2P or B2P model has been in reality, that's what it was sold as way back when it was getting going in games. It was never sold as "here is a way for people to money shame other players about how much they are spending on a game and look down on them at the slightest hint that they might not be putting the 'correct' amount of money possible into supporting the game." That type of stuff is very disturbing.

And WoW raises its level cap, which gives people more power, more health, more damage.  The weakest kitten that drops from mobs in the WoW expansions is better than the raid loot you got from the last expansion.  But no one calls WoW pay to win.  Call it like it is.

If this game is pay to win, WoW and other MMOs are MORE pay to win. If you won't use the term for them, don't use the term here. If I'm playing on a PvP server in WoW and a guy 10 levels above me attacks me, I'm toast. End of story. Here you have some sort of chance, if you're better at least. Not the case in WoW.

[Labjax.2465]

Just now, Freya.9075 said:

The expectations for buying any expansion is non existent. I doubt anyone would “shame” anyone for not buying them. It’s their choice to do so or not. Even players who paid for all expansions choose to play core specs. They don’t get “shamed” for doing so either. You’re creating issues where there are none 

You were literally just on here in this thread going on about how you get what you pay for and F2P is supposed to be a worse experience and blah blah, and you're going to tell me I'm making up issues about money shaming. The nerve of some people.

[Labjax.2465]

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

And WoW raises its level cap, which gives people more power, more health, more damage.  The weakest kitten that drops from mobs in the WoW expansions is better than the raid loot you got from the last expansion.  But no one calls WoW pay to win.  Call it like it is.

If this game is pay to win, WoW and other MMOs are MORE pay to win. If you won't use the term for them, don't use the term here. If I'm playing on a PvP server in WoW and a guy 10 levels above me attacks me, I'm toast. End of story. Here you have some sort of chance, if you're better at least. Not the case in WoW.

I'm fine with calling others games pay to win in that way too, actually. Shady is shady.

[Vayne.8563]

Just now, Labjax.2465 said:

I'm fine with calling others games pay to win in that way too, actually. Shady is shady.

Dude, it's not shady because no one calls it shady. No one but you is calling WoW pay to win, that's the point. Expansions were NEVER part of the pay to win expectation. In fact, find a long time MMO player that doesn't expect to have to buy expansions. It's even worse in other games, because the tier of gear keeps going up. You can't have BIS gear without expansions in other games. Here, you can.  It'll take longer but it can be done.

Sorry, but if ALL the games are pay to win them none of them are. The term was designed to differentiate games that sold power in the cash shop from games that didn't. You can redefine it if you want, but why should anyone care.

[Westenev.5289]

Core staff ele is still useful in wvw. But from a roamer/duelists perspective, I can understand the annoyance. Maybe burn guard or some form of core warrior build might still be viable?

[Freya.9075]

6 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

You were literally just on here in this thread going on about how you get what you pay for and F2P is supposed to be a worse experience and blah blah, and you're going to tell me I'm making up issues about money shaming. The nerve of some people.

You do get what you pay for. How is that shaming anyone? If you choose to buy a used car instead of a brand new Ferrari would anyone shame you for it? You get what you pay for simple as that. No shaming in that whatsoever 

[Dawdler.8521]

8 minutes ago, Freya.9075 said:

The expectations for buying any expansion is non existent. I doubt anyone would “shame” anyone for not buying them. It’s their choice to do so or not. Even players who paid for all expansions choose to play core specs. They don’t get “shamed” for doing so either. You’re creating issues where there are none 

Just play WvW.

90% will be playing specs up to HoT, same 90% will have EoD because WvWers are really into PvE.

[RUB RUB RUB RUBZ.9136]

1 hour ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

 It's not a roaming build, but I'm not roaming, so....  I also see core specs from time to time, and while some are not competitive, that's been the case for a very long time.  I see a  lot of core necros in WvW to this day.

Finally, one shots?  You're upset about one shots now?  Why weren't  you before, because one-shot takedown builds have been with the game since it started.

1: I roam, and I prefer to scout and roam at the same time. Many roamers would agree, there are classes of roamers, and I roam on my Core Ranger. Its a stealth trap ranger, and fun, but when I come up against other roamers of the new variant such as the ele EOD meta type, or Necro, its best to stun them, and run. I stand literally no chance. I've hit them with double everything I had, every CC i had, and still couldn't get their health down to 75%, and they do 2 hits on me and I'm dead. This type of game play isn't fair at all. I'm no whiner, but my level of frustration has been boiling for "years" This isn't from just a few skirmishes and felt like ranting, this has been boiling over from years of anet creating an imbalance of builds. I'm seriously angry about this and you should too. 

2: The 1 shot kills have been around forever, but no contest, the skills in the new meta are just so powerful even the weak skills can 1 shot me, instant down or even instant KO. The Sniper Assassins are the exception because of their glass design, however the wars, guards, eles, revs, every class from literally EOD has 1 shot kill skills, and my core ranger, it takes like 5 minutes to kill some players like that. Its gotten to the point sometimes they will PM me and praise my success for using a core build and taking them down, which is sad. Being complimented for all the wrong reasons says alot about the difference in strength and isnt right. Anet should be ashamed of themselves. 

[RUB RUB RUB RUBZ.9136]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Just play WvW.

90% will be playing specs up to HoT, same 90% will have EoD because WvWers are really into PvE.

You play WvW? What class do you play normally, and do you use core builds? I see core builds alot in "zergs" but not many core roamers unless new and don't have many SP for new elite specs yet. I've killed my fair share of players with my core ranger, but been killed more. You cant sit there, and tell me you don't see imbalance in wvw. Not without lying. And any1 who says otherwise is a liar too. 

[Cheddar.7103]

I understand your point that powerful builds gated behind a paywall make for a P2W feeling in WvW. The argument could be made of "why not just reduce the numbers on these OP builds to make everything more balanced?" The answer is that in competitive games, they intentionally design things to be imbalanced, and rotate what is OP. That way players are constantly changing builds and playing new things, and yes, buying more content. This extends the time people are playing the game, something that is extremely important for MMOs where the expected lifespan is intended to be far longer than other games. League of Legends is a prime example of this. The meta constantly shifts to new "OP" champion pools to keep the game fresh.

 

Unlike LoL, GW2s business model requires people to pay money for access to these new builds. If you don't like the business model, then there's nothing more to say. I for one love GW2s business model. I'm going to pay for the expansions because of how much else it brings to the table beyond WvW/PvP so it's a complete non-issue for me. If WvW / PvP was the main focus of the game then I would completely agree with you. But GW2 mainly caters to a casual MMO open world PVE player with it's horizontal progression. If you want more focus on PvP and WvW, encourage people to pay them more money and buy expansion sso they can devote more resources to it.

 

Though personally I would prefer that money go towards new attack animations for the new specializations *cough cough Vindicator and Reaper greatsword cough cough*

[Tukaram.8256]

I never knew the core game was released as free to play, until a few months ago.  When I started (at launch) we bought the core game.  There has never been a subscription - but the game was not free.  Now they offer the core game for free, but as far as I can tell, that is like  giant free sample. You want the full game? Buy the expansions.

There is no problem with the current model. 

[Einsof.1457]

Solution: grind gold until you can buy the elite specs. You're welcome. 

[Vayne.8563]

30 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Solution: grind gold until you can buy the elite specs. You're welcome. 

You can't buy elite spec or expansions with gold.

[Darklord Roy.2514]

8 hours ago, RUB RUB RUB RUBZ.9136 said:

It angers me severely because it was designed this way by people who don't give a crap about us anymore but just use the game for a steady $ now. 

They do intentionally overtune Especs at the beginning of each expansion launch because they want to encourage people to play with their new toys. The specs end up getting nerfed later to bring them more in line with the others, but you're just as likely to get smashed by the flavor of the month with a HoT spec as you are with a core build. Plenty of core builds are also still viable in all game modes (core Guardians are completely insane, tbh) so I'm not even really sure where this thread comes from.

 

Also, what's up with this idea that game designers work for free? Why on earth would they NOT make the game as a steady source of income when it's literally their only product? Do you expect them to cater to you as a completely free game?

 

GW2 has never been fully "free." You have always had to either but the core game or buy the expansions for the full experience. Nothing about that is P2W just because the expansions come with game changing features just like any other game expansion would.

[Tukaram.8256]

45 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

You can't buy elite spec or expansions with gold.

Yep. More proof that GW2 is not pay to win ha ha 😎

[Vayne.8563]

Just now, Tukaram.8256 said:

Yep. More proof that GW2 is not pay to win ha ha 😎

Well, if you need to buy expansions to be more powerful, every MMO I've ever played is pay to win. If you're applying it here you also have to apply it to WoW.  Everything goes up in WoW, levels, stats, everything. A guy 10 levels above you meeting you in open world PvP WILL kill you. That's not the case here.

It's easy to laugh and try to score points that way, but the truth of the matter is the game isn't pay to win, unless they all are, in which case the term loses all meaning.  You guys obviously weren't around when pay to win was first defined, however, that doesn't really give you the right to make up your own definitions.

[Yanosh.2631]

I got all xpacs and in WvW roaming I use core necro almost exclusively. It's perfectly viable.

Also, I completely disagree that buiyng xpacs with a lot of content in it should be considered p2w.

You need to consider as well that if the developer doesn't earn any money then the game will stop beeing developed. People need to get paid for their work. Otherwise they go look for a new job...

[Demented Lemur.7861]

So buying an expansion is now considered pay to win by some people.

 

What a world we live in.

[omgdracula.6345]

Elite specs are not P2W. Expansions are not P2W. Saying a game is P2W from a competitive area of gameplay would insinuate that a low skill WvW player could beat a skilled WvW player. That's simply not true. In any aspect. For example I main thief. If I hopped on a Necro with whatever flavor of the month build it has. I would get stomped because I have 0 understanding of the class. 

 

In order to be P2W I would have to be able to buy stuff that ensures I will always win, and negate player skill or strategy. GW2 isn't P2W

Edited April 27, 2022 by omgdracula.6345

[Xenesis.6389]

12 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

P2W generally doesn't include expansions or DLC otherwise there's no point to threads like these as pretty much every single MMO nowadays would be P2W.  In which case, maybe a different genre would be preferable.

No there's a difference with most other mmos, the players they have using new upgrades or specs are usually in new areas away from base game or previous expansion players, because most of those games are constant vertical progressions, even their pvp sections where they have their arena start at max level or there's separate level based brackets for other pvp like battlegrounds.

The problem with gw2 pvp is that it's open to every type of account, they all play together in spvp and wvw, so in a sense the pvp side of this game is p2w, if you consider elite specs to be superior to core specs. Now, I believe many of the core specs are still viable, but there are certain ones that have definitely been left behind in the power, and the elite spec power creep is present for the most part(but that could just be blamed on anet's terribad and neglected balancing). In terms of pve, that's just pay to play new content, unless they are outright selling uber legendary sword +100 stats on the gem store, there's pretty much nothing p2w in that section. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[JWiLL.7514]

12 hours ago, RUB RUB RUB RUBZ.9136 said:

It's gotten to the point where people coming into the game are getting wrecked so bad in wvw they just refuse to ever go back after such a bad experience, even if they are BEGGED to go back. Some just never come back. 

It's literally always and forever been like that. New players come in with their PVE builds and gear and have little idea of what to do or to expect and they can run into almost anyone who knows their way around WvW and get wrecked within seconds. New players stick out in more ways than one and their low/beginner rank can make them an easy target.

 

Some players after suffering that dig in, get educated and get the necessary gear and builds to compete in that game mode and some run and never look back and at times blame everything but themselves. To blame this on the xpac elites though...Just no bro.

[subversiontwo.7501]

None of this has any broad conclusion one way or the other. It is mostly design and balance issues tbh.

There are classes where the especs have always been sidegrades and different.

There are other classes where the especs have always been upgrades and have built functionality ontop of the core.

It should also be noted that how strong or impactful the class mechanics are also differ quite wildly between classes. This is especially true since some of the core functionality of certain classes has become more or less baseline across more or all classes over time.

For example, the initiative system has not been duplicated. The shroud system has been duplicated. At the same time the (necro-) shroud system is a rather impactful system and a good example of strong design where each spec has unique and obvious function so core has a place among the specs. On the other side you have Ranger for example with a core system that never was well implemented and especs that struggles with being straight upgrades even though the devs have attempted a core-improvement project on the class. Another rather interesting example is Guardian that has remained important in alot of content even though it has rather anonymous core functionality thanks to certain boons being an important part of its core design and even though those boons have been duplicated on alot of other specs over time, they are so important that Guardians having more of them have kept them in high demand.

It's a very interesting example of whether the design/function is strong or whether the context/result is strong that often go woosh above the head of people. We have good examples of this in both recent Celestial threads and in things like the WvW class overview stream with Teapot and Roy a couple of days ago.

So, err, to bring this back to something relatable: Some classes have core specs that stay relevant, other classes have not. It is how they have always been designed. How stand-out their especs are, but also how stand-out their core mechanics are to begin with.

Edited April 27, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[RUB RUB RUB RUBZ.9136]

3 hours ago, Yanosh.2631 said:

I got all xpacs and in WvW roaming I use core necro almost exclusively. It's perfectly viable.

Also, I completely disagree that buiyng xpacs with a lot of content in it should be considered p2w.

You need to consider as well that if the developer doesn't earn any money then the game will stop beeing developed. People need to get paid for their work. Otherwise they go look for a new job...

Of course the devs need money to live, and work, and continue to keep Gw2 running, but they are escalating the power lvls of the new characters to much that core builds cant even compete against them. How is it so hard for you to understand this? Did you not read the opening argument? This game IS Pay to win now. It has been since HoT, with new builds being more powerful than core game. Of course they weren't too OP where core players couldn't kill them, but now with EOD the lvl of power is way beyond being able to kill them, its not even close to even. The only way I could kill a EOD build is if they stood still for 2-3 minutes and let me pummel them. If they fought back I'm dead.