-Might- The one change to achieve a better balance!

[Swagger.1459]

49 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

50 player blob consists of 2/3 necros and guards -> this game is balanced for teams. Just leave.

Well, do you know what a team based gameplay is as opposed to solo play? Just wondering… 

[SeTect.5918]

Isnt this somehow a buff to condi in pve?

Reducing might for condi builds will reduce their overall damage.
Then they will buff condi again so it deals similar damage.

The only thing it does is basically that condi builds are less reliant on might and can pump out even better dps if they dont have might. (while condi is already far better in solo play than power)

And power builds will be nerfed because their benchmarks will grow.

Overall this change just pushes condi builds even more far away from power builds because it makes condi builds less reliant on might and power builds more reliant on might. And this while most condi builds have more access to might than power builds have. And not to forget, power builds also need fury.

Tbh this change buffs condi and nerfs power.

[Sahne.6950]

7 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Isnt this somehow a buff to condi in pve?

Reducing might for condi builds will reduce their overall damage.
Then they will buff condi again so it deals similar damage.

The only thing it does is basically that condi builds are less reliant on might and can pump out even better dps if they dont have might. (while condi is already far better in solo play than power)

And power builds will be nerfed because their benchmarks will grow.

Overall this change just pushes condi builds even more far away from power builds because it makes condi builds less reliant on might and power builds more reliant on might. And this while most condi builds have more access to might than power builds have. And not to forget, power builds also need fury.

Tbh this change buffs condi and nerfs power.

i suggested WvW/PvP only, because PvE people love their Benchmarks and i dont want to touch that.

[Dadnir.5038]

8 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Isnt this somehow a buff to condi in pve?

Reducing might for condi builds will reduce their overall damage.
Then they will buff condi again so it deals similar damage.

The only thing it does is basically that condi builds are less reliant on might and can pump out even better dps if they dont have might. (while condi is already far better in solo play than power)

And power builds will be nerfed because their benchmarks will grow.

Overall this change just pushes condi builds even more far away from power builds because it makes condi builds less reliant on might and power builds more reliant on might. And this while most condi builds have more access to might than power builds have. And not to forget, power builds also need fury.

Tbh this change buffs condi and nerfs power.

That's very good points.

The OP assume that strike damages and condition damages aren't currently in a state of balance while the devs probably think otherwise.

55 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i suggested WvW/PvP only, because PvE people love their Benchmarks and i dont want to touch that.

 

Let's just keep in mind that most people in WvW are killed by the strike damage part of the skills that apply conditions but they only register the fact that they were overloaded with conditions.

[Sahne.6950]

23 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Let's just keep in mind that most people in WvW are killed by the strike damage part of the skills that apply conditions but they only register the fact that they were overloaded with conditions.

ARCDPS has another opinion on that... atleast if we are speaking about Celestialrenegade, Celeweaver, Celefirebrand. Others i have not really paid attention to. For Celerenegade on average its like 60%condi 40%strikedamage. and the other two are close to 70% condidamage.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Hotride.2187]

39 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

ARCDPS has another opinion on that... atleast if we are speaking about Celestialrenegade, Celeweaver, Celefirebrand. Others i have not really paid attention to. For Celerenegade on average its like 60%condi 40%strikedamage. and the other two are close to 70% condidamage.

Is that tested vs players who don't cleanse? Or on tower lords? Cause I expect the condi dmg to be even higher without cleanses.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Sahne.6950]

8 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Is that tested vs players who don't cleanse? Or on tower lords? Cause I expect the condi dmg to be higher without cleanses.

Its the average when duelling. i was fighting a spectre and a Harbinger during the tests. I had a debate with my brother, wether Celerenegade is more Condi or more powerbased, because i felt like the Power part was hitting harder than the Condis, and he was like HELL NO! your condis hit way harder. And he was right. The conditions hit harder, even on someone with good cleansing. After that we did some testing with other builds. And for Fireweaver and firebrand it  leans even further into Condi. But i speced those to maximaze Burndamage/duration so that might be a factor, whereas i play the Celerenegade more powerfocused. I even use Powerbuffood, but still the Condis are the bigger part of the damage, but thats mainly because the shortbow has some REALLY nice condiscalings. But i am almost sure that that would look diffrent for other builds, mainly i am thinking about Celeboonbeast.. Power should be the main damage here. So it kinda depends on what you are playing... but for my 3 Celebuilds it is true that Condi is the bigger portion of the damage.

BUT lets not forget that "Sevenshot" can still hit upwards of 5k damage... so it is still responsible for those "WHY AM I DEAD all of a sudden" moments. But overall the Condidps is bigger than the sustained strikedamage.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Might isn't the problem on celestial, boon duration is.  

If they remove boon duration / expertise again I doubt anyone will play cele all that much.  Because without that extra boon duration you can't maintain might.  

[Hotride.2187]

31 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Its the average when duelling. i was fighting a spectre and a Harbinger during the tests. I had a debate with my brother, wether Celerenegade is more Condi or more powerbased, because i felt like the Power part was hitting harder than the Condis, and he was like HELL NO! your condis hit way harder. And he was right. The conditions hit harder, even on someone with good cleansing. After that we did some testing with other builds. And for Fireweaver and firebrand it  leans even further into Condi. But i speced those to maximaze Burndamage/duration so that might be a factor, whereas i play the Celerenegade more powerfocused. I even use Powerbuffood, but still the Condis are the bigger part of the damage, but thats mainly because the shortbow has some REALLY nice condiscalings. But i am almost sure that that would look diffrent for other builds, mainly i am thinking about Celeboonbeast.. Power should be the main damage here. So it kinda depends on what you are playing... but for my 3 Celebuilds it is true that Condi is the bigger portion of the damage.

What I mean is, vs cele you normally cleanse at every good opportunity and you take chunks of power dmg you outsustain (e.g. autos, or whatever skill is applying the condis). So power has a way longer time to deal damage than the condi part of skills (since you cleanse those). You usually take condi dmg only from a few stacks of the condi type, as soon as it gets above 4-5 stacks you must cleanse (or you melt). It never gets to really do dmg like in pve (since it never got to stack). Condi usually gets to do "real" dmg to you once you run out of cleanses. I.e. I expect sustained condi dmg of cele in wvw to be way higher than the sustained power dmg (more than what you measured).

Unless ofc your duel partner had insane sustain so was cleansing sparingly. Though its hard for me to imagine someone not cleansing 10 stacks of torment or similar and living.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

ARCDPS has another opinion on that... atleast if we are speaking about Celestialrenegade, Celeweaver, Celefirebrand. Others i have not really paid attention to. For Celerenegade on average its like 60%condi 40%strikedamage. and the other two are close to 70% condidamage.

And I'm talking of WvW where most people follow the zerg and enjoy large condi cleanse.

As for the disparity for duelling, if the specific build focus on condition damage (whether it's celestial or not) it's natural that there is a difference in the percentage of damage. Both Celefirebrand and Celeweaver focus on applying burn, I mean even metabattle say it: "this build is all about stacking burning". For renegade, the difference come from the fact that runes and food push on the condi side of the damage (You could have encountered the power variant with power runes instead of antitoxin or aristocracy and have the %age switched).

In a way those example of yours prove that strike damages and condi damages are balanced atm. If you were to trait, build and mainly use skills fit for strike damage with a cele gear and find that you do more condi damage than strike damage then, you could say that there is imbalance. But in this case all 3 example focus on condition damage.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Sahne.6950]

16 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

And I'm talking of WvW where most people follow the zerg and enjoy large condi cleanse.

As for the disparity for duelling, if the specific build focus on condition damage (whether it's celestial or not) it's natural that there is a difference in the percentage of damage. Both Celefirebrand and Celeweaver focus on applying burn, I mean even metabattle say it: "this build is all about stacking burning". For renegade, the difference come from the fact that runes and food push on the condi side of the damage (You could have encountered the power variant with power runes instead of antitoxin or aristocracy and have the %age switched).

In a way those example of yours prove that strike damages and condi damages are balanced atm. If you were to trait, build and mainly use skills fit for strike damage with a cele gear and find that you do more condi damage than strike damage then, you could say that there is imbalance. But in this case all 3 example focus on condition damage.

agreed all 3 builds favor condi. I use Antitoxin on the renegade, altho i use power/ferocity buffood/enhancement on the Renegade.

[Coldtart.4785]

So renegade has a ranged condi weapon with power coefficients that wouldn't look out of place on a melee power weapon and a might stacking trait that's three times stronger in wvw than in pvp but it's definitely the cele gear that's making it strong.

[Sahne.6950]

19 minutes ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

So renegade has a ranged condi weapon with power coefficients that wouldn't look out of place on a melee power weapon and a might stacking trait that's three times stronger in wvw than in pvp but it's definitely the cele gear that's making it strong.

You are right with what you are saying, but this is not about Celerenegade being bonkers. It is about the slow but sure shift in the roamingmeta. People are playing more and more bunkerspecs. The mightchange would take some wind out of the sails of this "Condi/Cele ship".

[Hotride.2187]

5 hours ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

So renegade has a ranged condi weapon with power coefficients that wouldn't look out of place on a melee power weapon and a might stacking trait that's three times stronger in wvw than in pvp but it's definitely the cele gear that's making it strong.

Yeah lets just nerf every trait and skill, nuking every build out of existance, cause its hard to admit cele is the problem.

Or only renegade roams on cele with great success?

[ZDragon.3046]

lmao the solution to solving celestial is nerfing celestial big surprise....

 

its suppose to be the all rounder stat comb that works and is passable but not particularly good at anything. The fact that its being used so heavily means its actually too good at a number of things rather being just sub average at everything which means a change to state values are needed which intern makes it dead and useless in everyone eyes... so if you really want to solve the cele problem your options are realistically nerfing to a point most people dont use it it or just removing it from the game all together but people want it in the game i dont think nerfing might is going to solve your problem at all if anything it will just make it worse.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I think that problem has more to do with Anet being boon happy while also being hybrid power/condi dps with the EoD specs and less to do with Cele itself. The problem is the current balance meta. Blaming Cele is like blaming the one-shot meta on zerker stats. It wasn't the stats that were the problem, it was the state of balance at the time. 

Cele usage isn't the problem, it is the specs. Nerfing cele is like removing amulets from PvP, it doesn't solve the actual problem, it just redirects the problem to an alternate stat set.

[JunkJunk.8971]

Just nerf conditions.    It is horrible 

[Coldtart.4785]

17 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Yeah lets just nerf every trait and skill, nuking every build out of existance, cause its hard to admit cele is the problem.

Or only renegade roams on cele with great success?

Put cele on a d/p thief and tell me how much better it is.

[The Boz.2038]

Cele isn't a problem.
The role of might is to provide an absolute increase to your stats, not a relative one.

If there is a problem in the set of issues you've raised, it is lack of access or reluctance to equip boon strip.

[Hotride.2187]

1 hour ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

Put cele on a d/p thief and tell me how much better it is.

I'll put it on specter. Players already are.

mY poWEr oNLy SkiLls DOnT wOrK wITh cELE, blAMe THe cOndI bUiLd

Edited May 5, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Coldtart.4785]

Interesting that power skills don't work with cele but condi skills do when it has 50% more power stats than condi stats. Don't you always say cele is too strong because it has more stats than other types? So why doesn't that relation hold true within cele itself? You understand that not all builds work well with cele, that there are good builds that cannot benefit from cele and that throwing cele on anything won't automatically make it strong yet you still somehow think it's an issue of cele gear and not class balance.

[Bakeneko.5826]

I have better fix - corrupt or rip boons.

[Hotride.2187]

12 hours ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

Interesting that power skills don't work with cele but condi skills do when it has 50% more power stats than condi stats. Don't you always say cele is too strong because it has more stats than other types? So why doesn't that relation hold true within cele itself? You understand that not all builds work well with cele, that there are good builds that cannot benefit from cele and that throwing cele on anything won't automatically make it strong yet you still somehow think it's an issue of cele gear and not class balance.

I say cele is too strong because the sustain is way too high for the dmg it does. If you have such sustain you should do way less dmg - pick one of the 2. Ofc with how broken condi stacking is that can never work. You can always bunker on condi but cele does it way too well.

The total stats is an argument used by others, personally I don't care about that. Remove the healing+vit+toughness stats or remove the concentration+expertise, or nerf the overall numbers, I don't really care. Do something.

As for builds being the issue and not cele, how many traits/skills do you want nerfed then? As opposed to nerfing the enabler cele and letting players min-max with gear (as I read all the time, that is even better than cele so no big deal then)? You will put a lot of condi builds out of business, assuming the devs can even make an effort of this scale. And who knows what can of worms you'll open once everyone stops running the mandatory tons of condi cleanses.

Or by all means try to balance condi, I don't see a world in which that can happen. The condi vs cleanse design is a trainwreck.

Also cele doesn't have 50% more power stats than condi, effectively it has less power stats. You are missing out on condi dmg yes, but the expertise is the same (also same precision when compared to vipers). Whereas compared to marauder you are missing out on power and ferocity (to not even compare with berserker). This is another point of difference between power and condi, for condi you can inherently build tankier as you need only 2 stats (in theory). Though lets suppose condi needs to be tankier (as in, dmg mitigation via stats, and not broken sustain via boons and stats).

Edited May 6, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[HowlKamui.5120]

I imagine this will work for one reason:

The celestial roamer duels that already take forever will now take even longer leading to people getting bored of it. Hope they dont quit though.