Im on the verge of dropping Thief (new player)

[Sinderlok.6357]

Hi everyone. Need some opinion from this forum. From starters i say I really love aesthetics of this profession, i love how skills feel. Especially on Charr, i feel like some kinda predator jumping everywhere. But when it comes to pvp or even pve i suck so much. I dont understand what i can do better. Everyone burst me from 19k hp to zero in seconds, and when i try to do some damage it takes so long. Max crit number i saw is 6k from Heartseeker. Most skills and AA deal 1.5-4k damage. I tried multiple builds and had some luck only with rifle deadeye, but its kneel mechanic feels clunky and overall bad. I wasted hours trying to make something out of Thief, to not feel useless. PVE in open world also feel bad. When i played necro(harbinger/reaper), warrior(berserker/bladesworn) and vindicator it was so fun. I even could solo champion mobs on hero points, had a lot of success in WvW roaming. It feels like all those classes i can deal around 2-3 times more damage than thief and have better survivability. Hell, harbinger have almost same mobility as a thief with more ehp and damage. What is even worse is that when i go to youtube, i see all these videos where thief players just own people 1vX. Here is an example. But every time i try to go against 1 or 2 players i just get owned instantly. They just CC me, after i break cc they cc me again. When i go to stealth they just aoe me. I feel like a kittening looser. Is me or Thief is indeed this bad? Then why it looks like this guy can own everyone so effortlessly? And i see damage people do to him, its like nothing! He stays in players AOE and it does very little damage to him. When i get down to half HP almost immediately after starting a fight.

 

P.S. Sorry for my english.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Sinderlok.6357

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Thief is a very difficult class for a new player. You are easy to kill since you rely on dodges and evades to survive, and have generally weak AoE damage. In pvp you need to have a good understanding of the builds and classes you are fighting, as well as how to rotate in conquest.

Once you get to 80 pistol/pistol deadeye is good for single target in pve, but you lack AoE and are still squishy. Staff daredevil has decent aoe, but again you are squishy and rely on dodging entirely to survive. Spectre might be a bit easier since they have their shroud health, but they play more like a necromancer than a thief.

[Sinderlok.6357]

23 minutes ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Thief is a very difficult class for a new player. You are easy to kill since you rely on dodges and evades to survive, and have generally weak AoE damage. In pvp you need to have a good understanding of the builds and classes you are fighting, as well as how to rotate in conquest.

Once you get to 80 pistol/pistol deadeye is good for single target in pve, but you lack AoE and are still squishy. Staff daredevil has decent aoe, but again you are squishy and rely on dodging entirely to survive. Spectre might be a bit easier since they have their shroud health, but they play more like a necromancer than a thief.

Problem is, i cant understand why i deal a lot less damage than with other professions. Lets take survivability aside and talk about damage. Thief supposed to be this single target burst monster. But all i see is tiny 1.5-4k numbers with 6k here and there in pve. My warrior and harbinger does more single target damage than thief. Im wearing full marauder gear btw.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Sinderlok.6357

[Hotride.2187]

I've only dueled thieves (a lot), but I think thief along with rev are the highest skill professions (for power builds). You will probably need hundreds of hours on thief to be able to play like players do in montages 🙂

I don't know if there are any beginner guides for thief, I've tried watching Yama but not playing thief myself its kinda hard to tell what is going on (or make sense of the guides/explanations): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrWfJpn5mfLVlLjxRJBdD5Q

If you want a lot of dmg, the s/d core power build should be the most you can get from power. Though keep in mind that a lot of roamers are currently on tanky gear (cause playing glass is hard and wvw roamers are mostly into ganking, not into getting better at the game). You might want to try spvp conquest, though there thief has a different job (maybe that job will suit you better while you are still learning). Conquest should also match you with new players, at least for the first several games. In wvw all sorts of players roam, you can run into someone that has 10k+ hours, or someone with almost no competitive experience.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Sinderlok.6357]

12 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I've only dueled thieves (a lot), but I think thief along with rev are the highest skill professions (for power builds). You will probably need hundreds of hours on thief to be able to play like players do in montages 🙂

I don't know if there are any beginner guides for thief, I've tried watching Yama but not playing thief myself its kinda hard to tell what is going on (or make sense of the guides/explanations): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrWfJpn5mfLVlLjxRJBdD5Q

If you want a lot of dmg, the s/d power build should be the most you can get from power. Though keep in mind that a lot of roamers are currently on tanky gears (cause playing glass is hard and wvw players are mostly into ganking and blobbing). You might want to try spvp conquest, though there thief has a different job (maybe that job will suit you better while you are still learning). Conquest should also match you with new players, at least for the first several games. In wvw all sorts of players roam, you can run into someone that has 10k+ hours, or someone with almost no competitive experience.

Thanks. Yeah, probably should try out conquest. Its just i don't really like pvp modes like that, that put you in artificial environment(arena) to pvp. Roaming feels more fun, but i guess conquest is better for learning profession. Its just so strange for me, i found that Revenant is quite easy, so i cant say that it is hard to master profession. Same with necro and warrior. But Thief gives me so many troubles.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Sinderlok.6357

[Dadnir.5038]

You lack experience and would like to be as effective as experienced players on builds that they've long mastered. All in all that's you're issue.

As a learning player you just shouldn't expect to perform well 1vX in competitive modes. Your favored encounter will be 1v1 on unsuspecting foes. Until you learn how to achieve reliably the "big hits" and proper combos. You need to carefully choose your fights and reset it through teleport and stealth whenever you feel things are going south, that something important for a thief. Be aware of your positioning and boons on your foes, thief need to flank it's foes to really be effective.

In open world PvE, thief is pretty simple. Take D/P to use skill#5 and AA only on mobs that don't have defiance and most of the time you'll "win". On Mobs that have defiance (and assuming you're alone), go for pistol main-hand and kite. If you're in a group/zerg, engage and disengage when you need to (sword main-hand can be useful to learn to do that). To farm pack of mobs in a zerg, just rely on the good old shortbow, anyway, anything drop like flies in zergs.

[Sinderlok.6357]

1 minute ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You lack experience and would like to be as effective as experienced players on builds that they've long mastered. All in all that's you're issue.

As a learning player you just shouldn't expect to perform well 1vX in competitive modes. Your favored encounter will be 1v1 on unsuspecting foes. Until you learn how to achieve reliably the "big hits" and proper combos. You need to carefully choose your fights and reset it through teleport and stealth whenever you feel things are going south, that something important for a thief. Be aware of your positioning and boons on your foes, thief need to flank it's foes to really be effective.

In open world PvE, thief is pretty simple. Take D/P to use skill#5 and AA only on mobs that don't have defiance and most of the time you'll "win". On Mobs that have defiance (and assuming you're alone), go for pistol main-hand and kite. If you're in a group/zerg, engage and disengage when you need to (sword main-hand can be useful to learn to do that). To farm pack of mobs in a zerg, just rely on the good old shortbow, anyway, anything drop like flies in zergs.

What would you advice on weapon switch. Or is it not so critical on thief and i can stick to 1 combination of main and offhand until i can feel it is okay to make it a bit harder and start to switch between weapons? I feel like half of my brain power goes to figuring out when is better time to switch to d/p or s/d in the middle of combat.

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, Sinderlok.6357 said:

What would you advice on weapon switch. Or is it not so critical on thief and i can stick to 1 combination of main and offhand until i can feel it is okay to make it a bit harder and start to switch between weapons? I feel like half of my brain power goes to figuring out when is better time to switch to d/p or s/d in the middle of combat.

Most thiefs used to have shortbow to get out and rely on a single weapon skillset to fight. I'd say, that you should try to master 1 weaponset as much as possible first, afterall, thief's weapons are only gated by initiative.

[Asur.9178]

Play a better spec, like Willbender or Herald. Your class will get more attention and love in balance patches. They (Guardian/Revenant) also have VERY strong presence in PvE - more relevant than Thief.

Furthermore, after you use a skill, you won't be stuck auto attacking and desperately running away as those specs, since they don't have a global c/d on their skills (initiative)...unless you enjoy using 1 skill and then standing around waiting for initiative regen to use another/same skill again.

You also won't find yourself in a position where you are HARDLOCKED into a traitline (Trickery) for over 9 years (and further locked thanks to reduction in initiative and increased initiative costs) with those specs...and sitting around with a completely irrelevant traitline (Acrobatics) for years.

Once upon a time, thief used to be kings of mobility...that is no longer the case (especially after EoD). Thief is currently a neutered class thanks to constant nerfs over the years. They also used to have solid burst...that is also no longer the case. Specs like Willbender and Herald has MUCH higher bursts while having much better sustain.

Also, in regards to your comment about the video. Realize the following: montages are pick and choose fights/clips. You're not going to see a montage include fights where they got trolled and rolled, unless they are specifically making one to show that.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Asur.9178

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

One thing that I don't think is stated enough is that for thief, you really have to be a little knowledgeable on other professions when fighting them. Due to health, you have to be precise with your attacks, dodge, etc. This again makes it hard for newer players until they learn other professions. 

 

That said, if you need help, hit me up. I play mostly wvw and roam on my thief A LOT but can help in pve as well. (I haven't played pvp in ages tho) What wvw server are you? I'm Eredon Terrace (North America).

[Szymon.5369]

Hey, I watched the linked vid, so first thing said - this is NOT a simple or typical meta thief build lol. Deadeye is the most risky spec to play because you don't get port on steal and people easily notice being marked so they'll expect you attacking. Usually the safe choice for DE is to play Rifle and be a general nuisance. There's a lot of well executed moves there and the poster has their mechanics well practiced, I'll list you a few select highlights to point out how the damage is happening:

 

In 4:15-4:20 a classic, smoke field + leap + backstab, note how fast and accurate it is. Also note that weavers have a lot of bonus evade + invuln frames, so you have to time it well. Another clean one in 10:55-11:00, executed after the Weaver dodges.

5:32 note the speed of the dagger5 - weapon swap - backstab combo, same thing happens in 8:57.

In 4 seconds in 6:17 to 6:21 you got mark, close distance, smoke, leap and backstab landed. Immediately after you get a comparison on a spellbreaker who didn't get stabbed so easily so you can compare how much decisive execution + surprise matters in landing that high damage.

7:52 - 8:05 a short fight against a trap DH with another showcase trick - smoke+leap while simultaneously using Shadowstep, then face turn + backstab.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Szymon.5369

[Spatula.5136]

For PVE, try out a condition damage Daredevil. I use shortbow + D/D with trailblazers and krait runes for open world, with the condi dodge. Fights usually go like this:

Swipe in, D/D 3, dodge out

Swap shortbow and drop 4+2 

By this point there are a ton of condis on the target. With trailblazers and 3 dodges you'll be very tanky. I did almost all the Return To achievements with this build, and ive started to add in vipers gear for more damage. 

[Sahne.6950]

Thief is mainly a +1 class in spvp. You should not expect to win 1vs1´s, nor should you aim at doing them. You are a ganker. You use your insane mobility to +1 fights (turning them into 2v1). If you are just starting out.. i suggest playing ranger. All of the things are straight forward and the pet help you alot.

Thief also doesnt hold alot of damage outside of Heartseeker,Backstabs and you stolenskills. You should try things like doing a stealthcombo (smokefield+Heartseeker) Then use your f1 right after casting the Heartseeker. The Steal will teleport you to the target. Heartseeker hits -> you become stealthed because of the combo-> you can backstab -> another heartseeker = alot of damage. Also i see alot of theifs not using ther bow properly. It actually does ALOT of damage, and i advise to just pew pew a bit from range before committing. A nice "2" from the bow can hit upwards of 6k easily. Its a nice opener. If you get a good bow2 hit and then do the combo above. you can put some serious damage into your enemy.

Thief is all about those quick ~8k damage that you bring into a already ongoing 1v1, to quickly down your opponent. Then you run off to gank the next 1v1 fight. 

Actually winning 1v1s on your own requires alot of practice, intiative management and knowing what your enemy is playing. As a Thief you ARE the mappressure. Use the mobility to decap points and gank/help in already ongoing 1v1 fights.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Sahne.6950]

18 hours ago, Sinderlok.6357 said:

What would you advice on weapon switch. Or is it not so critical on thief and i can stick to 1 combination of main and offhand until i can feel it is okay to make it a bit harder and start to switch between weapons? I feel like half of my brain power goes to figuring out when is better time to switch to d/p or s/d in the middle of combat.

you are NEVER running d/p and s/d together.

You are running:

d/p + Shortbow     or

S/d + Shortbow     or

rifle + d/p

everything else is VERY VERY niche....

For all of the weaponcombinations above the following rule applys: Your first weaponset is your mainset. You use it basicly 90% of time, for damage, evasion, stealth, yada yada. Your secondweapon ( Shortbow) you kinda only use it for the mobility from 5. Sometimes it is worth to fire your 1 into the enemys ( especially if its 2 and your arrow can bounce between them). If you have d/p as your secondset ( you only have that on DE really) you use it  only to stack stealth(Riflekneeled 2 into Heartseeker; for stealth, or for the occasional 15k Backstab:D (Yeah Deadeye backstab HURTS)

Edited May 9, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

You can also double up on your weapon sets,  like rifle-rifle or even d/p-d/p with cleansing sigil to help get those condis off when you don't want to actually change to a shortbow or something. 

[Roche.7491]

On 5/9/2022 at 12:11 AM, Sinderlok.6357 said:

Hi everyone. Need some opinion from this forum. From starters i say I really love aesthetics of this profession, i love how skills feel. Especially on Charr, i feel like some kinda predator jumping everywhere. But when it comes to pvp or even pve i suck so much. I dont understand what i can do better. Everyone burst me from 19k hp to zero in seconds, and when i try to do some damage it takes so long. Max crit number i saw is 6k from Heartseeker. Most skills and AA deal 1.5-4k damage. I tried multiple builds and had some luck only with rifle deadeye, but its kneel mechanic feels clunky and overall bad. I wasted hours trying to make something out of Thief, to not feel useless. PVE in open world also feel bad. When i played necro(harbinger/reaper), warrior(berserker/bladesworn) and vindicator it was so fun. I even could solo champion mobs on hero points, had a lot of success in WvW roaming. It feels like all those classes i can deal around 2-3 times more damage than thief and have better survivability. Hell, harbinger have almost same mobility as a thief with more ehp and damage. What is even worse is that when i go to youtube, i see all these videos where thief players just own people 1vX. Here is an example. But every time i try to go against 1 or 2 players i just get owned instantly. They just CC me, after i break cc they cc me again. When i go to stealth they just aoe me. I feel like a kittening looser. Is me or Thief is indeed this bad? Then why it looks like this guy can own everyone so effortlessly? And i see damage people do to him, its like nothing! He stays in players AOE and it does very little damage to him. When i get down to half HP almost immediately after starting a fight.

 

P.S. Sorry for my english.

My opinion for pvp, just drop thief. It requires a very high skill cap to make it work. You won’t make it. I highly suggest to just create a level 1 character of the meta class and hit sPVP.

My opinion for pve is to just have fun. Spam 2, 2, 2 & dodges with your daredevil staff. Spam 3, 3, 3 & kites with your deadeye pistols. Spam Alac wells & autoattacks with your specter.

But overall you are totally right, both DD & DE dps are inferior to revenant & others. And thief is the underdog class in the game but is also the coolest.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Roche.7491

[kash.9213]

There's good feedback in this thread.

I posted in a similar thread Struggling with Thief - Thief - Guild Wars 2 Forums and would probably echo some of those points and some from the other posts there.

You might be trying to take in all at once from that video and missing the intent from their body language. You might be able to pickup up on what's in their head a little by watching their foot work and how they use space and how their skills use space and how they keep the area around them in consideration or how they'll move and face the target where they want them.

His three GM trait picks kind of tell you how they might play and might answer a couple of your questions. You might see how they're not getting blown out and can sustain a little while still pressuring and why they weapon swap at certain times.

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by kash.9213

[ASP.8093]

4 hours ago, Roche.7491 said:

My opinion for pvp, just drop thief. It requires a very high skill cap to make it work. You won’t make it.

I disagree.

The thing with SPvP thief, in contrast to all these WvW roaming/dueling videos, is that you never need to win a "fair" fight.

To be a worthwhile thief in 5v5 conquest, your map awareness and tactical awareness matter a lot more than precise execution. Your main job is to progress the map and most of your combat time involves jumping in on a fight already in progress to ruin an already-vulnerable enemy's day. Taking 1v1s is a pretty small part of that.

…

To the OP:

To be honest, I think that video in particular is also really hard to follow because this particular player has a *really* jerky camera control style. Which is very disorienting when you're not the person who's controlling the camera.

Edited May 10, 2022 by ASP.8093

[Doggie.3184]

Asur's words are very true. I stick with it out of habit as I been playing it for 10 years despite constantly being tempted to reroll myself. So the way you feel honestly will likely never change. If you don't want to have to deal with such worries for the rest of your life, rerolling early is the best option because that is just the playstyle they want for Thief.

Since god tier gamers actually exist they balance things based on their top-tier-MLG performance and not by the general publics'. Ini isn't all that exciting anymore when other classes get like 5 second cooldowns on huge damage hits and ours has been nerfed to drain whole bar on a single skill so calling it a global cooldown is pretty appropriate. Everyone has more mobility now, especially if you nerf yours by not being a Daredevil~ Specter is actually pretty slow. You'll always be putting in more effort than everyone else. If that's not the life you want then run naow.

[Zacchary.6183]

Up until a few years ago, thief was a regular target of nerfs due to anet's balancing decisions being based off the cries of people who regularly die to them. This happened up to the point thief mains dropped it for heavy professions and then thief was kind of left where it was up until EoD. Thief had some of its range taken away, a lot of its damage taken away, active defenses nerfed, etc. There also was a mentality that thief was and should always remain a +1/decap bot which kept it there for a long time. 

That said, in spite of its high skill floor there are things you can do to survive and feel useful elsewhere. And the very first thing you need to do to get to that point is start with easy content to get a hang of the traits and the flow of combat and then work your way up. You could also post your build to see if anything could be improved. http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/

[Roche.7491]

1 hour ago, Doggie.3184 said:

Since god tier gamers actually exist they balance things based on their top-tier-MLG performance and not by the general publics'.

 

46 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Up until a few years ago, thief was a regular target of nerfs due to anet's balancing decisions being based off the cries of people who regularly die to them.

This is SO SO TRUE! Devs only serve 1% of the population instead of the 99%.

No wonder why a lot of casual players stopped playing right after finishing the story or getting obliterated in pvp lol. Next!

On 5/9/2022 at 12:11 AM, Sinderlok.6357 said:

I feel like a kittening looser. Is me or Thief is indeed this bad?

TC I know you feel like shiit but you are not a loser. Assassins in this game are just designed unfriendly.

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Roche.7491

[Roche.7491]

19 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

To be a worthwhile thief in 5v5 conquest, your map awareness and tactical awareness matter a lot more than precise execution. Your main job is to progress the map and most of your combat time involves jumping in on a fight already in progress to ruin an already-vulnerable enemy's day.

Sounds more like a job of a scout.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Roche.7491

[ASP.8093]

1 hour ago, Roche.7491 said:

Sounds more like a job of a scout.

Lol, no it doesn't.

As a thief, you are the fastest player on the team and you can use stealth to surprise your opponents or cover your retreat. You do not have top damage, but you have the ability to stick to targets and compress your bursts quite effectively.

Higher-tier players learn to flee to "no port spots" precisely to avoid getting mopped up by a thief when they've been focused by the enemy team.

[Sindrener.1592]

Specter is the gigaslayer

[Rogue.8235]

On 5/9/2022 at 8:08 PM, ASP.8093 said:

The thing with SPvP thief, in contrast to all these WvW roaming/dueling videos, is that you never need to win a "fair" fight.

To be a worthwhile thief in 5v5 conquest, your map awareness and tactical awareness matter a lot more than precise execution. Your main job is to progress the map and most of your combat time involves jumping in on a fight already in progress to ruin an already-vulnerable enemy's day. Taking 1v1s is a pretty small part of that.

 

Seconding this.  A thief's job in sPvP is to grief the opposing team.  Use your mobility to constantly sabotage the map (such as decapping).  Also use your mobility and high burst to kill an enemy player already engaged in a fight and dip out to the next task.  At the very least, damage the enemy player so badly that they have to blow all their defensive cooldowns, allowing your teammates to quickly complete the kill.  The thief is a busybody in sPvP in that you are constantly running around messing up the enemy team in every possible way.  You, alone, are the full court pressure.

Essentially, as you play a match ask yourself what the enemy team wants to accomplish.  Then run around doing everything you can to prevent them from doing that.  You're win condition is to screw the enemy team out of theirs.  The other 4 players on your team worry about the conventional stuff.  The more frustrating you are to your opponents, the better you are doing.  As well, don't die.  You want as much up-time as possible to continuously lay on the full map pressure.  Also keep in mind that your team may need you at a specific place and time, so don't ignore them.  

 

Please note, you are to grief the enemy team, not your own team.  Griefing your own team is done by the AFK profession.