Oh its monday again? here´s your weekly "Nerf Celestial" Thread!

[Sahne.6950]

Is it a bird? is it a plane? NOO, its just celestial being miles above every other statcombination for roaming!

Seriously. Celestial is pushing every build that doesnt have a ton of sustain or stealth out of the roaming meta. Alot of the builds just cant break thru the sustainwall that alot of the popular Celestialbuilds have. The Celestialbuilds then win the fights by slowly draining the enemy sustain until they have no cleanses left and die.

If you are not running Celestial... are you even roaming?

 

OHH before anyone comes around the corner with that smart "just play spvp" argument: NO! WvW is not only largescale. we can NOT ignore roaming. If we do that... its GG for the whole gamemode.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Hotride.2187]

I'm not running cele and I'm not roaming 👍 It was pointless, now its also unenjoyable on top.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Is this going to turn into the Shattered Aegis joke thread meme?

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

I hope that you're aware that X celestial build != Y celestial build though.
Celestial is a blank paper, it really shows how broken some stuff is in WvW, because some classes are 10x stronger with celestial than others, is it a stat being a reason for that or a poor balance?

[Junkpile.7439]

Just neef specs that use celstial

[Telgum.6071]

Remove Celestial just like you did with the Celestial amulet in pvp.

[Kozumi.5816]

Devs want a sustain heavy button mashing PvP game. It's their vision, mintrel, nomad, cele etc will never get nerfed.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Devs want a sustain heavy button mashing PvP game. It's their vision, mintrel, nomad, cele etc will never get nerfed.

As evident by the fact that they gutted damage AND hard CC's damage was completely nullified in Feb2020.

Someone must have really gotten tired of their Ele going into downstate so much on the balance team...

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

No nerf to cele until you remove stealth from game.

[Coldtart.4785]

So condi builds being able to work with just 1278 stats dedicated to condi while power builds need 2977 stats (marauder ascended no rune) dedicated to power damage is somehow about the gear and not about condi?

[Odin.6487]

24 minutes ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

No nerf to cele until you remove stealth from game.

and immob spam. 

[Hotride.2187]

2 hours ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

So condi builds being able to work with just 1278 stats dedicated to condi while power builds need 2977 stats (marauder ascended no rune) dedicated to power damage is somehow about the gear and not about condi?

Well there was a thread also for that... "fix that condi kitten". Cele stats would die a natural death if they "fix" condi. Only from what I've seen, the devs way of fixing something is making it so bad it doesnt see play anymore. I wouldnt trust them with that...

But I play power only in competitive, so more or less same to me. And who knows maybe not having to slot so much cleanse will open up more dmg options. Or power builds will instead slot more bunker utils and power matchups will become a slugfest too.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Sahne.6950]

14 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I hope that you're aware that X celestial build != Y celestial build though.
Celestial is a blank paper, it really shows how broken some stuff is in WvW, because some classes are 10x stronger with celestial than others, is it a stat being a reason for that or a poor balance?

i Agree. Some builds REALLY stand out when it comes to performance with Celestial. Imo this is what Builds need to perform with celestial: They need good power AND condiscalings on both of their weapons, and they need something that scales with healing. Those are the builds that perform well. A builds starts to dominate when it has alot of Mightgeneration. The might rises the Powerstat and the Condistat VERY close to that of Marauder / Trailblazer, While also having the same ammount of Ferocity and Conditionduration of those two and also having same concentration as full minstrels, Having Tougness, Vita,yada yada... And i think this is where the problems begin. MIGHT.

Some builds have some ridicilous mightgeneration just baked into their kit. The in 2021 Added Concentration, allows those builds to have some pretty nice mightuptime.

The problem here is, that you really dont want to nerf the Power version of builds. How can we balance those outliner celebuilds, without touching their respective Powervariant?

Theres a few options.

a)shave stats from Celestial. in 2021 They added Concentration and Expertise on Celestial without lowering the per stat value of the remaining stats. They should Change it so that Celestial has around the same ammount of totalstats, that it had prior to the buff. Or if thats to much reduce the totalstats just a bit. This is just a straight nerf, but also affects builds that use cele and do not overperform, so... its debatable.

b) Mightgeneration needs to be looked at. some Builds can maintain 25 stacks might by simply pressing 1.... This should not be the case.... i remember a time where stacking to blast a firefield was a thing, only so you could have some good might for the next 8 seconds...  Nowadays its like "Renegade go BRRRRRR" or "Elixir go POPPP" and you are sitting on 25 stacks of might comfortably. Boons are just WAY to accessible. This would be a nerf to Alot of builds and it would also affect the respective power/purecondi builds and thats not really something i am looking for here.

c) They have to change how might works. It should NOT give a flat +30 power and condistat, rather a 1% increase. This way might would not be as valuable for Bunkerbuilds as they dont have a high basevalue to scale the % with. However squishy/glassbuilds will not be affected by this as much. For example if you have 2900 power, a stack of might would still give 29 power, if you have 3100 power it would even be a buff and give 31power. However a celebuild sitting on 1700 power and 1000 Condi would only got 17 power and 10 Condi for a mightstack. This one is a weird Blanketchange and might have some unexpected outcomes.... but just on paper... it looks like the way to go, to fight the growing Celestialmeta.

its just some random thoughts.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 hours ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

So condi builds being able to work with just 1278 stats dedicated to condi while power builds need 2977 stats (marauder ascended no rune) dedicated to power damage is somehow about the gear and not about condi?

^ This ^

Feb2020: Nerfs all the power damage

Feb2020: Also doesn't nerf condition damage's coefficients on the condis.

[Sahne.6950]

2 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

^ This ^

Feb2020: Nerfs all the power damage

Feb2020: Also doesn't nerf condition damage's coefficients on the condis.

Well thats something we see basicly every balancepatch. I think there were 3 total balancepatches that followed EoD. Almost every spec saw some tweaking here and there. BUT NOT A SINGLE CONDITIONCOEFFICIENT WAS TOUCHED.

Seriously... i was going thru the changes of Harbinger and i was like.. okeee  power... power... power...power....  WHERE IS THE CONDICHANGES!?

i strongly believe they just dont have a clue how to balance condis, or they think that everything is fair and square. both things would be equally sad.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

i Agree. Some builds REALLY stand out when it comes to performance with Celestial. Imo this is what Builds need to perform with celestial: They need good power AND condiscalings on both of their weapons, and they need something that scales with healing. Those are the builds that perform well. A builds starts to dominate when it has alot of Mightgeneration. The might rises the Powerstat and the Condistat VERY close to that of Marauder / Trailblazer, While also having the same ammount of Ferocity and Conditionduration of those two and also having same concentration as full minstrels, Having Tougness, Vita,yada yada... And i think this is where the problems begin. MIGHT.

 

If all that were even true then Warrior with sword/sword + Longbow would do well with Cele as well.

Warrior sword/sword and longbow are both hybrid weapons with strong power and condi skills. Warrior only needs FGJ to maintain high might stacks, and can easily manage 25 stacks even on S/S + LB. Along with VS it can have high healing output as well.

So... how many Cele warriors of any spec do you see?

[Sahne.6950]

Just now, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

If all that were even true then Warrior with sword/sword + Longbow would do well with Cele as well.

Warrior sword/sword and longbow are both hybrid weapons with strong power and condi skills. Warrior only needs FGJ to maintain high might stacks, and can easily manage 25 stacks even on S/S + LB. Along with VS it can have high healing output as well.

So... how many Cele warriors of any spec do you see?

none... but lets not use the argument that warrior is p00p00 to justify the existance of Celestial... Thanks.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Well thats something we see basicly every balancepatch. I think there were 3 total balancepatches that followed EoD. Almost every spec saw some tweaking here and there. BUT NOT A SINGLE CONDITIONCOEFFICIENT WAS TOUCHED.

Seriously... i was going thru the changes of Harbinger and i was like.. okeee  power... power... power...power....  WHERE IS THE CONDICHANGES!?

i strongly believe they just dont have a clue how to balance condis, or they think that everything is fair and square. both things would be equally sad.

The condis have set coefficients with condition damage. BUT they've never been touched (other than reworked confusion's damage procs and flipping torment).

Seems to me that they are do for nerfs in competitive. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, Sahne.6950 said:

none... but lets not use the argument that warrior is p00p00 to justify the existance of Celestial... Thanks.

poopoo warrior balance aside, does that not shed light on the fact that cele itself isn't the problem, since said class fullfills all the criteria you mentioned that makes cele a problem?

It isn't the stat set, its the specs that are using it. I'm sure we won't agree on this, and that is fine, but I encourage you to try out some of the other specs with cele gear if you have not yet.

[KrHome.1920]

19 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

^ This ^

Feb2020: Nerfs all the power damage

Feb2020: Also doesn't nerf condition damage's coefficients on the condis.

Condi damage is not just damage but also duration and stacks and both has been nerfed.

Celestial fixes a lot of things in WvW. Before it was buffed Marauder was as imbalanced as people now claim that celestial is. Just organize a WvW smallscale tournament where just marauder is allowed. Any necro and ele build will be food while guardians and thieves will dominate. Celestial vs. celestial is remarkably balanced.

[Hotride.2187]

41 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

poopoo warrior balance aside, does that not shed light on the fact that cele itself isn't the problem, since said class fullfills all the criteria you mentioned that makes cele a problem?

No regen, no prot though? You need traits to invest in sustain, those are not suitable for condi on war?

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

poopoo warrior balance aside, does that not shed light on the fact that cele itself isn't the problem, since said class fullfills all the criteria you mentioned that makes cele a problem?

It isn't the stat set, its the specs that are using it. I'm sure we won't agree on this, and that is fine, but I encourage you to try out some of the other specs with cele gear if you have not yet.

I am not to familiar with the specific warrior build you are referring too, but i think the weaknesses it has originate from the Traits/utilityskills of Warrior and the weaponset missing some keyutilitys that you need to survive in a WvW environment like mobility and defenses. Just having 2 weapons that scale with power and condi and having 25 might doesnt make a build.

I am aware that the supremacy of those Celebuilds doesnt come from the stats alone. It originates from bad interactions from traits with the Celestialset. mainly having braindead mightgeneration. It is not the set alone that is busted. Its the traits and boons that allow those builds to have a serious wall of sustain that alot of builds fail to break thru, and therefore are being pushed out of the roamingmeta.

I still think that the mightgeneration of certain professions paired with the Concentraiton on Celestial is the root of alot of the problems. and no " buT ceLe waRrIoR is tRaSH tHo" argument is gonna change that. IDK saying that celewarrior is trash is not really a solid argument is it? we all know that warrior succs....

Every profession, besides Thief and Warrior are 100% stronger with a wellthought out Celestialbuild than any other Marauder or Trailblazer build will ever be on the same profession. And i stand by that.

 

Celesignetmirage /Celevirtuoso; Celeboonbeast ; Celeharbinger ; Celeburnguard ; Celescrapper/holo ; Celerenegade

all of those are significantly stronger than any other Build for their specific profession. If we measure that by the celebuilds fighting against their respective powerversion. Some power version might be better for ganking or similar stuff... but in any other scenario you are better off running the Celestialversion.. and i dont think that that should be the case. Cele should not overshadow basicly any other option for their professions.

I agree tho. Cele is not the only thing that needs to be looked at here. Some professions seriously need a shave in their boonuptimes... but having +40% boonduration on Celestial surely is a factor here aswell.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Hotride.2187]

34 minutes ago, KrHome.1920 said:

Celestial vs. celestial is remarkably balanced.

Just lol. And every other statline vs cele? What sort of an argument is that?

Also you are out of your mind if you think a 10+ min cele vs cele staring contest is "balanced".

Edited May 10, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Sahne.6950]

8 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Just lol. And every other statline vs cele? What sort of an argument is that?

Also you are out of your mind if you think a 10 min cele vs cele staring contest is "balanced".

Those are the type of people that never had a 20+ Minutes fight against a "Cele-enjoyer"

Seriously i have had fights that went for over 30 minutes... GREAT GAMEPLAY! (ofc we were both using Celestial... what else should you run as a soloroamer atm?

[Hotride.2187]

18 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Seriously i have had fights that went for over 30 minutes... GREAT GAMEPLAY! (ofc we were both using Celestial... what else should you run as a soloroamer atm?

The future of roaming, once the last power players quit.