Can Phase Traversal be un-nerfed for PvE please?

[FirebrandFrog.7603]

For context:

>May 17,2016: The cost of this skill has been increased from 20 to 35.

A change for PvP and WvW that ended up badly hurting PvE players in the process.

>August 28, 2018: The energy cost of this skill has been reduced from 35 to 30 in PvE and WvW.

A "minor" buff for the skill aimed at the non-PvP gamemodes...but 30 Energy for this kind of skill hurts.

But...can't this skill just cost 20 Energy again, now that it's very much possible to keep such changes contained to PvE?

[Dadnir.5038]

The 10 extra points are probably the payment for the 3s of quickness.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

48 minutes ago, FirebrandFrog.7603 said:

For context:

>May 17,2016: The cost of this skill has been increased from 20 to 35.

A change for PvP and WvW that ended up badly hurting PvE players in the process.

>August 28, 2018: The energy cost of this skill has been reduced from 35 to 30 in PvE and WvW.

A "minor" buff for the skill aimed at the non-PvP gamemodes...but 30 Energy for this kind of skill hurts.

But...can't this skill just cost 20 Energy again, now that it's very much possible to keep such changes contained to PvE?

The one thing I've learned by playing this game since 2012 is that A-net will NEVER revert changes like that. They'll do absoletuly everything beside changing it back how it was before.
So don't expect energy cost back to 20, but expect some weird buffs that no one asked for them to justify the cost in PvE...

[Buran.3796]

15 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

The one thing I've learned by playing this game since 2012 is that A-net will NEVER revert changes like that. They'll do absoletuly everything beside changing it back how it was before.

   Actually that's not true. With exactly that same skill (Phase Traversal) they introduced a nerf wich canceled the teleport when the target was out of the range. But since they didn't do the same to the rest of teleports in game (as Judge's Intervention) the outrage was so loud that they backpedaled 180º and entirely restored the functionality.

   But at that time they probably had like a dozen of people designing the balance patches so in that sense, yeah the probabilities now are very low. But don't say "ANet never reverts a change" since albeit rare, they sometimes do it.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Buran.3796

[FirebrandFrog.7603]

On 5/15/2022 at 4:00 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

The 10 extra points are probably the payment for the 3s of quickness.

I would disagree since the 3s of quickness still isn't enough to push the button. Even going full Diviner doesn't justify it, you only get maybe one or two extra seconds.

[Virdo.1540]

Shiro generally is a mess for PvE. Phase Traversal is too bad for the energy cost, same with Riposting Shadows AND ESPECIALLY Jade Winds.

[Shao.7236]

As Shiro if you want damage, Impossible Odds is all that's needed anyway.

 

1 hour ago, FirebrandFrog.7603 said:

On 5/15/2022 at 5:00 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

The 10 extra points are probably the payment for the 3s of quickness.

I would disagree since the 3s of quickness still isn't enough to push the button. Even going full Diviner doesn't justify it, you only get maybe one or two extra seconds.

100% Boon Duration means double so 6 seconds.

[FirebrandFrog.7603]

7 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Shiro generally is a mess for PvE. Phase Traversal is too bad for the energy cost, same with Riposting Shadows AND ESPECIALLY Jade Winds.

godddddd tell me about it

50 Energy for a CC button that does less barbreak than flesh golem charge, an overcosted gap closer, an underwhelming lifesteal heal...and apparently if you buff any of these Shiro somehow ends up too strong because Impossible Odds is bonkers (which, it *is*, don't get me wrong) and the entire skillset is balanced around/orbiting that skill.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

20 hours ago, FirebrandFrog.7603 said:

godddddd tell me about it

50 Energy for a CC button that does less barbreak than flesh golem charge, an overcosted gap closer, an underwhelming lifesteal heal...and apparently if you buff any of these Shiro somehow ends up too strong because Impossible Odds is bonkers (which, it *is*, don't get me wrong) and the entire skillset is balanced around/orbiting that skill.

I doubt they balance the other costs around Impossible Odds. The truth is they probably just don’t care about/haven’t even looked at the costs for the other stuff since they know Shiro is at least functional with IO in PvE. Remember, they used to balance PvE around PvP and didn’t skill split, so the kit was originally designed for PvP and then nerfed for PvP without any proper PvE skill splits later. This is definitely a case of “we have bigger fish to fry/we forgot” more than anything else 
 

All of Shiro’s costs in PvE (besides IO/heal) should be examined though. They’re currently way too high and they could absolutely be buffed to be cheaper without making Shiro OP 

Edited May 17, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Manpag.6421]

On 5/16/2022 at 11:03 AM, FirebrandFrog.7603 said:

I would disagree since the 3s of quickness still isn't enough to push the button. Even going full Diviner doesn't justify it, you only get maybe one or two extra seconds.

For quickness alone, Scavenger Burst is so much better that it's hard to justify PT.

3s with a 5s cooldown vs 4–9s with a 3s cooldown which also gives 4–9s of fury without  dropping another 30 energy on Ripposting Shadows.

Granted, the nerf bat hasn't really touched the Luxon alliance skills yet and that could change, but Shiro really does need buffing to compete with it. The only advantage PT has is the making attacks unblockable. The instant 1200 range shadowstep is nice, but Nomad's advance range isn't terrible considering the radius extends its effective range beyond the stated 600 units.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Manpag.6421

[Curennos.9307]

I'd like to see: 

- PT: Remove unblockable, remove damage. Neither are really relevant in PvE and are either too strong or useless in pvp (the unblockable) or just overkill and imo disproportionately impacts the value anet thinks the skill gives (the damage), resulting in increased cost for something the rev doesn't actually want or need. Reduce cost to 30, 25 if anet is feeling generous. Reduce quickness duration to 2 sec if needed, or figure out a way to make the quickness expire after it's used to boost 1-2 skills. It's pretty easy to unload every single weapon skill with 3 sec of quickness.

 

- Riposting Shadows: Stunbreaks should consistently be 30 energy, imo. Remove the endurance regen and leave it at that, if it needs any nerf at all as the +end gain has itself been nerfed and at this point is relatively negligible imo.

 

- Jade Winds: This needs to actually be usable - as it is, it drains the rev entirely. It's also tuned as a mass AoE stun, but has wonky benefits - 50 energy for something easily blinded, stab'd, big tell, etc just isn't worth it. I'd prefer a CC that I can actually use consistently. If possible, I'd enjoy some sort of scaling mechanic that increases the cost based on # of targets so that it can be used in 1v1s to stun a single person without being charged the energy cost of an AoE stun. Ideally, reduce the stun duration to 1 sec or 1.5 sec (3 sec is just bonkers, imo, and completely unneeded - I think this game has a big issue with unnecessarily long CC's). Reduce cost to 20 energy, increasing by 5 per additional target up to a maximum of 35 (not including pets, clones, etc), after which it can increase up to target cap of 5 without an energy cost increase. This would also help make it more valuable in pve, as the rev no longer neuters their dps rotation for a weak CC. 

 

- Impossible Odds: Saw posters above mention it was bonkers - I've never really felt it was OP, but maybe it could be trimmed a bit. I know it's had some oppressive interaction with multi-hit abilities, and if other Shiro costs are decreasing, revs will no longer be completely drained after executing certain burst combos combined with IO. Fiddle with the damage numbers and application interval to give it more consistent, and possibly slightly lower, damage when combined with multi-hit skills while still keeping it actually usable and a choice to make on whether or not to increase burst or save energy for something else.

[FirebrandFrog.7603]

7 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

I'd like to see: 

- PT: Remove unblockable, remove damage. Neither are really relevant in PvE and are either too strong or useless in pvp (the unblockable) or just overkill and imo disproportionately impacts the value anet thinks the skill gives (the damage), resulting in increased cost for something the rev doesn't actually want or need. Reduce cost to 30, 25 if anet is feeling generous. Reduce quickness duration to 2 sec if needed, or figure out a way to make the quickness expire after it's used to boost 1-2 skills. It's pretty easy to unload every single weapon skill with 3 sec of quickness.

 

- Riposting Shadows: Stunbreaks should consistently be 30 energy, imo. Remove the endurance regen and leave it at that, if it needs any nerf at all as the +end gain has itself been nerfed and at this point is relatively negligible imo.

 

- Jade Winds: This needs to actually be usable - as it is, it drains the rev entirely. It's also tuned as a mass AoE stun, but has wonky benefits - 50 energy for something easily blinded, stab'd, big tell, etc just isn't worth it. I'd prefer a CC that I can actually use consistently. If possible, I'd enjoy some sort of scaling mechanic that increases the cost based on # of targets so that it can be used in 1v1s to stun a single person without being charged the energy cost of an AoE stun. Ideally, reduce the stun duration to 1 sec or 1.5 sec (3 sec is just bonkers, imo, and completely unneeded - I think this game has a big issue with unnecessarily long CC's). Reduce cost to 20 energy, increasing by 5 per additional target up to a maximum of 35 (not including pets, clones, etc), after which it can increase up to target cap of 5 without an energy cost increase. This would also help make it more valuable in pve, as the rev no longer neuters their dps rotation for a weak CC. 

 

- Impossible Odds: Saw posters above mention it was bonkers - I've never really felt it was OP, but maybe it could be trimmed a bit. I know it's had some oppressive interaction with multi-hit abilities, and if other Shiro costs are decreasing, revs will no longer be completely drained after executing certain burst combos combined with IO. Fiddle with the damage numbers and application interval to give it more consistent, and possibly slightly lower, damage when combined with multi-hit skills while still keeping it actually usable and a choice to make on whether or not to increase burst or save energy for something else.

To answer your changes:

Phase Traversal: Unblockable damage is one of Shiro's gimmicks, I wouldn't cut this from PT and especially with the blegh state Power is in at the moment. But with all the changes you intend...PT would *still* be unusuable unless it costed like 10 Energy (because, as stated by someone else, it's competing with Nomad's Advance for a gapcloser and Scavenger Burst for Quickness application...and *both* skills are better than PT, albeit only because the nerf bat hasn't been pointed at Vindi yet).

Riposting Shadows: Honestly I think it's fine as-is, though I would personally cut the distance travelled by...I want to say half? This would all be PvE-only, mind you, but endurance regen is super important for Vindicator specifically so I wouldn't touch it.

Impossible Odds: The thing about it being bonkers is that it has a *lot* of interaction with passives and abilities that are based on hits instead of damage, so e.g. Thief Poisons, Soulbeast Stances, Necromancer's Vampirism trait, etc. (And, of course, Battle Scars pre-nerfs.) Buffing it is a tightrope act because it's a very easy skill to break and ANet tends to overnerf things that overperform... Ideally, I would turn IO into a six-second Unique Buff that lets you double-attack and has a modest but still long-ish cooldown, giving Shiro a playstyle that's still balanced around IO but balanced around it being a burst-strike damage playstyle where other buttons can still be pressed instead of "optimized" gameplay where you maintain IO but press as few buttons as possible. 

Jade Winds: I disagree with lowering the stun duration but only on the premise of "if you lower the CC then lower the cost, too", maybe give it something else that still makes it worth pressing instead of being ignored for everything but mobbing. Strong CC is needed for certain fights where enemies can pack some really thick breakbars and having piddling CC will leave your team in a rough spot for that kind of fight. Mostly, I just want either a cheaper elite or a stronger CC from something so debilitatingly expensive.

[ArthurDent.9538]

There no real argument for impossible odds being op. Impossible odds is simply the primary damage skill for the shiro kit so obviously for an energy management class optimal dps rotations are going to dump all energy not used on weapon skills into it. The other skills in the shiro kit provide much more utility and serve their purpose well enough and the only way to make them the new dps energy dump they would have to be insanely op. Its like staff thief, they spam staff 2 for dps instead of 5 not because 5 is bad, 2 is just better for pure dps, 5 gives an evade and more mobility so that is its merit and it is fine that way. Occasionally you get dumb people thinking anet should be balance staff thief to use both 2 and 5 in a pure dps rotation which will never happen (baring thief initiative rework which would be dumb) it will always be one or the other.

[Buran.3796]

   Impossible Odds should revert to its former version,  to provide self quickness in PvE. Between the nerfs in damage fron sword skills, the removal of vulnerability procs across the traits, the removal of quickness and the general damage nerfs across all the classes from Feb 2018?  2019? there's no reason to run power Rev in PvE. Aside from low damage, the energy cost in Shiro are so high that you're basically camping autoattacks. A bad autoattack bot.

[Curennos.9307]

3 hours ago, FirebrandFrog.7603 said:

To answer your changes:

Phase Traversal: Unblockable damage is one of Shiro's gimmicks, I wouldn't cut this from PT and especially with the blegh state Power is in at the moment. But with all the changes you intend...PT would *still* be unusuable unless it costed like 10 Energy (because, as stated by someone else, it's competing with Nomad's Advance for a gapcloser and Scavenger Burst for Quickness application...and *both* skills are better than PT, albeit only because the nerf bat hasn't been pointed at Vindi yet).

Riposting Shadows: Honestly I think it's fine as-is, though I would personally cut the distance travelled by...I want to say half? This would all be PvE-only, mind you, but endurance regen is super important for Vindicator specifically so I wouldn't touch it.

Impossible Odds: The thing about it being bonkers is that it has a *lot* of interaction with passives and abilities that are based on hits instead of damage, so e.g. Thief Poisons, Soulbeast Stances, Necromancer's Vampirism trait, etc. (And, of course, Battle Scars pre-nerfs.) Buffing it is a tightrope act because it's a very easy skill to break and ANet tends to overnerf things that overperform... Ideally, I would turn IO into a six-second Unique Buff that lets you double-attack and has a modest but still long-ish cooldown, giving Shiro a playstyle that's still balanced around IO but balanced around it being a burst-strike damage playstyle where other buttons can still be pressed instead of "optimized" gameplay where you maintain IO but press as few buttons as possible. 

Jade Winds: I disagree with lowering the stun duration but only on the premise of "if you lower the CC then lower the cost, too", maybe give it something else that still makes it worth pressing instead of being ignored for everything but mobbing. Strong CC is needed for certain fights where enemies can pack some really thick breakbars and having piddling CC will leave your team in a rough spot for that kind of fight. Mostly, I just want either a cheaper elite or a stronger CC from something so debilitatingly expensive.

Is it really a gimmick for the legend if it's basically two stacks on a gap closer out of the entire spec? 

 

That aside, I don't really care for the unblockable either way - just figured I'd point out things I was willing to give up in the context of, if anet thinks things are fine for Shiro right now, just plain 'ol 'reduce energy cost' probably isn't going to cut it. I also don't like feast or famine stuff, which is really what it is right now - how many times can anyone say they've used PT and actually benefitted from the unblockable? 

 

It also very much doesn't compete with Scav Burst and Nomad's the way one might think - the most obvious of which is that those are **two separate skills** and PT does both to a certain extent, AND is a 1200 port (compared to Nomad's leapiness), which is extremely valuable in pvp but nobody really cares about ports in pve. Is it really 'competing' and losing out if you have to compare it to two skills - both of which are in of themselves no slouch?

 

That said, I really don't see a use for PT in PvE no matter what you do with it, except for just moving around a little quicker. Could buff it sideways to add more usage - vuln stacks, cripple, etc. Who knows tho, maybe with all the mobility and ports anet is handing out like candy these days they'll be fine iwth just reducing the cost without asking for payment in blood.

 

JW stun duration: I find anything longer than 1, maybe 2 second duration CC absolutely absurd in this game. There's no reason whatsoever for someone to run out of stunbreaks and eat 3 whole seconds of whatever anyone wants to do to them. Admittedly, this is a design flaw across the entire game right now. Imo, CC should be strictly limited to landing one, maybe two skills total and should never exceed that limit (hence 1-2 sec). I find the whole 'out of stunbreaks? get caught in an inescapable CC chain and immediately die'. I much prefer CC -> one, two max hits of a 'burst' skill tops. That said, I was speaking from strictly a spvp perspective - I actually forgot about breakbar damage >_> If anet requires the whole 1 sec duration = 100 breakbar damage so it needs 3 sec = 300 to actually be useful, well....Fair point. Maybe a pvp skill split is due there to not screw over pve revs.

 

Riposting Shadows - fair, but I dearly hope anet changes vindicator to not have one dodge. That sort of thing has never worked out and idk why they keep trying to push it when they're clearly not willing to dedicate the resources or skill to actually making it work. If vind is reverted to two dodges + gains a f2 skill that is the 'super' dodge, I think it'd be fine. 

 

IO: Yes, all for this as well, whatever form the fixes take. Just tired of Shiro being so energy hungry that it feels like a 1-2 skill legend. I really like IO as a skill concept and would love to actually get more consistent use out of it.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Curennos.9307

[otto.5684]

For PvE, I think it is fine as is. It is a gap closer that provides quickness. It could use a 5-10 energy shave, but it does need to do more. 

[otto.5684]

4 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Impossible Odds should revert to its former version,  to provide self quickness in PvE. Between the nerfs in damage fron sword skills, the removal of vulnerability procs across the traits, the removal of quickness and the general damage nerfs across all the classes from Feb 2018?  2019? there's no reason to run power Rev in PvE. Aside from low damage, the energy cost in Shiro are so high that you're basically camping autoattacks. A bad autoattack bot.

One of the reasons IO was changed was that it became completely useless in a team setting. If they drop the cost down to 5 it should be in a good place. 
 

Power builds lacking damage should get buffs through elite line traits and utilities.

[Buran.3796]

6 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

One of the reasons IO was changed was that it became completely useless in a team setting. If they drop the cost down to 5 it should be in a good place. 

   Doesn't people in power builds drop Shiro for Jalis due Vengeful Hammers provide better damage while also provide damage mitigation? So the legendary Assasin legend is worse at its task than a bunker oriented legend (which also has better tools for things like breaking bars)...

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

3 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Doesn't people in power builds drop Shiro for Jalis due Vengeful Hammers provide better damage while also provide damage mitigation? So the legendary Assasin legend is worse at its task than a bunker oriented legend (which also has better tools for things like breaking bars)...

No, that’s not correct. Jalis is lower DPS than Shiro by a decent margin 

[ArthurDent.9538]

34 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

No, that’s not correct. Jalis is lower DPS than Shiro by a decent margin 

Except for cleave dps, impossible odds procs are single target due to the icd while jalis hammers not only cleave but they don't seem to have a target cap. Im not sure how many targets you need to be cleaving for hammers to pull ahead in overall dps but it's probably only 1 extra enemy. Fortunately impossible odds hits focus your targeted enemy so you won't waste dps on less important adds generally. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

12 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Except for cleave dps, impossible odds procs are single target due to the icd while jalis hammers not only cleave but they don't seem to have a target cap. Im not sure how many targets you need to be cleaving for hammers to pull ahead in overall dps but it's probably only 1 extra enemy. Fortunately impossible odds hits focus your targeted enemy so you won't waste dps on less important adds generally. 

True! if you need cleave then Hammers are better. I don't think Vindicator needs it though and like you say IO focuses the target so I'd say unless you need Stab that Shiro is almost always better

[otto.5684]

17 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Doesn't people in power builds drop Shiro for Jalis due Vengeful Hammers provide better damage while also provide damage mitigation? So the legendary Assasin legend is worse at its task than a bunker oriented legend (which also has better tools for things like breaking bars)...

No it is not. The PvE meta is Shiro + whatever elite you are using. IO does more damage than VH.