Teapot Tournament Stats

[DoomNexus.5324]

Interesting but kinda irrelevant imho. All of them are full pre-teams and most/all of them have voice com and a ton of experience in playing together.

Elementalist for example - according to you, I didn't verify - tied for the lowest win rate, yet ele was on both teams in the grand EU vs NA final, so what is the take away here now?
For me it's clear that individual player skill and team coordination and composition heavily outweigh class choice, I mean.. R55 and Team USA would've probably stomped most other teams on EU and NA respectively, even if they'd played off-meta compositions/builds.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

12 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

They can beat the dead horse that Revenant is, when Bunker is the only viable solution in the spamtastic meta we have, I couldn't care less for trying. I know they won't take the time to fine tune anything. EoD really slowed down the game with the over abundance of soft CC, to think having merely 12 seconds total of weakness was enough to have players complain at me, guess they forgot about the triple amount that was just introduced with the new content.

its the thing feb patch did, you just didnt notice cuz you played one of the blessed classes that didnt get nerfed properly.
this is what most build experienced post feb patch, good thing we had people like you praising the patch to high heavens.
 

[FarmBotXD.1430]

Despite this data, the entire community would flip their kitten at a mesmer buff 😄

[otto.5684]

7 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

Yeah and this is why this data is even more uncertain. Behind each match is a team. So 5 players who seek to win by choosing the best teamcomp. By taking this stance multiple factors are added to the evaluation like synergy between classes, the purpose of each build (roamer, bruiser, bunker, support), etc. This inflatuates the already poor data even more.

 

I dont deny that you can see a trend. Necro and guard is played often. This is backed by player experience from SPVP. But to deduct more then just some assumption from this specific data is nearly impossible. Its just not enough. This is all im saying. Cause the aim of samples like this is to balance pvp and with this kind of sample you cant.

 

From my personal experience i instantly agree buff core classes espacially mesmer and engi. But generally spoken i know abit about data science and this is not how it works (in this specific case).

I am not sure what are you are trying to do. Sure, this is not the only data, or all inclusive. Data from P1+ ranked, all ranked and unranked have to be factored. However, if you are trying to say that the data from AT has no significance, is like saying a team winning the super-bowl does not indicate they are a good football team. You are just dead wrong statistically and scientifically.

[Shao.7236]

41 minutes ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

its the thing feb patch did, you just didnt notice cuz you played one of the blessed classes that didnt get nerfed properly.
this is what most build experienced post feb patch, good thing we had people like you praising the patch to high heavens.
 

Hahaha, good one. Surely they needed to make Core Revenant completely unplayable because it definitely was overpowered to play something that keeps getting nerfed for the other overperforming elites.

 

Imagine having to nerf hammer rev in pvp, guess I was too strong with it as the sole only playing maining it to this day.

 

Mallyx has been dead content, so is Ventari. Jalis being half way there while if you dare touching Shiro everyone riots for appropriate nerfs that I couldn't agree more.

 

You really don't know who I am nor what I do.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

2 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Hahaha, good one. Surely they needed to make Core Revenant completely unplayable because it definitely was overpowered to play something that keeps getting nerfed for the other overperforming elites.

 

Imagine having to nerf hammer rev in pvp, guess I was too strong with it as the sole only playing maining it to this day.

 

Mallyx has been dead content, so is Ventari. Jalis being half way there while if you dare touching Shiro everyone riots for appropriate nerfs that I couldn't agree more.

 

You really don't know who I am nor what I do.

you are the guy that was defending condi rev at the peak of its reign of terror, you are the guy that defended near permanent resistance, I dont care what you do or what you play, I know for a fact you are willing to defend a broken spec and to this day you are still complaining about resistance change
 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Anet: Nerf Warrior you say? On it!

[semak.7481]

4 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Hahaha, good one. Surely they needed to make Core Revenant completely unplayable because it definitely was overpowered to play something that keeps getting nerfed for the other overperforming elites.

Imagine having a very good and viable core... I mean, at some point rev had but why would you play it when you have herald or rene? 

Rev is slowly catching up to what other gets all the time? (excluding blue and green children, these are handled with extreme care instead of good old -50% like pink child :>)

6 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Imagine having to nerf hammer rev in pvp, guess I was too strong with it as the sole only playing maining it to this day.

Want pretend to be the greatest victim of anet with this ? Get in line:

Buffing scepter on mesmer because it was dog and then nerf it so hard that it became even worse than it was originally?

Imagine every class having a trait that procs vigor on in your core traitline (universal for all classes who posses it) to be cut in duration nearly by 50%(actually by 40%) and share the same 10s cd?

1 dodge on mirage, no shatter on chrono, ADEPT trait on chrono was split in half and 1/2 of it became a new GM while tossing away real GM. Replacing chaos interruption basically with nothing and their fix was "we highlight skill which was affected because nobody notice this trait even does something". 

22 minutes ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

you are the guy that was defending condi rev at the peak of its reign of terror

Actually... I recall something like this 🙄

[Shao.7236]

44 minutes ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

you are the guy that was defending condi rev at the peak of its reign of terror, you are the guy that defended near permanent resistance, I dont care what you do or what you play, I know for a fact you are willing to defend a broken spec and to this day you are still complaining about resistance change
 

I was the guy who said they should nerf many things on Mallyx and to stop buffing it, still have the posts to prove it. Never defended the fact that Herald F2 instant cast was fair and still ain't, never defended the buffs Mallyx got outside the transfers and still ain't. Get your facts straight, you're talking to someone who played with the least Resistance he could have in favor of damage modifiers, none of that perma resistance unga bunga people were using as their main all the sudden with Rune Of Resistance that Anet dared nerfing last after lining Mallyx up the wall shooting nerfs on repeat at it with a final blow to Resistance being completely worthless against Poison modifiers acting like Resolution 33% dmg reduction is going to be "ok" for picking up on 20 burns from a core guardian support virtue of justice in a teamfight mid, instant dying trying to play the legend as it was so intended.

 

22 minutes ago, semak.7481 said:

Want pretend to be the greatest victim of anet with this ? Get in line:

Buffing scepter on mesmer because it was dog and then nerf it so hard that it became even worse than it was originally?

Imagine every class having a trait that procs vigor on in your core traitline (universal for all classes who posses it) to be cut in duration nearly by 50%(actually by 40%) and share the same 10s cd?

1 dodge on mirage, no shatter on chrono, ADEPT trait on chrono was split in half and 1/2 of it became a new GM while tossing away real GM. Replacing chaos interruption basically with nothing and their fix was "we highlight skill which was affected because nobody notice this trait even does something". 

Hammer was never good in PvP to be used by anyone but those who knew how to. I remember Scepter on Mesmer to be the equivalent of class carry on it's third skill before it got buffed so the fact that it got nerfed hard only makes sense, the latter doesn't matter with Hammer since it's only a WvW crutch that somehow still gets beaten to dead, instead of telling me to get in line how about you add up the common tropes of Anet complete incompetence at leaving things as they are if they are fine? Because that's what keeps happening, playing the victim is a new low to call on someone who has always agree with everyone else that the dev team doesn't understand their game as it was initially designed.

 

It shows that nobody looks at the sub forums where most of my posts come from to tell that the class doesn't need buffs or nerfs while everyone whines in either sides, ever since the EoD release Vindi is constantly considered to be trash and the nerfs adding up on it contributes to the idea that people think Vindi needs buffs when it simply needs to be tuned accordingly and past changes have done nothing since much of the EoD specs are just bloated with such that Vindi can't do jack but bunk and Anet is trying to kill that instead of fixing the power creep of other professions.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Shao.7236

[semak.7481]

1 minute ago, Shao.7236 said:

I remember Scepter on Mesmer to be the equivalent of class carry on it's third skill before it got buffed so the fact that it got nerfed hard only makes sense

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

There wasnt any case where scepter was carrying mesmer BEFORE any buffs, otherwise BUFF wouldnt occure in the first place. It was nerfed because chrono got 25 mights and brought it closer to rapid fire level of damage (while being 900 range and longer cast time and the fact that its not reflectable, but if my memory is correct, rapid fire is quite literally has 1900 range and faster cast time and more damage.

 

[Bale.3851]

1 hour ago, otto.5684 said:

I am not sure what are you are trying to do. Sure, this is not the only data, or all inclusive. Data from P1+ ranked, all ranked and unranked have to be factored. However, if you are trying to say that the data from AT has no significance, is like saying a team winning the super-bowl does not indicate they are a good football team. You are just dead wrong statistically and scientifically.

 

Im pointing out that this data isnt enough to justify any greater balacing changes. Because of the sample size, the spread could be part of a bigger population (which is most certain). This results in a higher risk of error which would mean making the situation worse than it actually is by overbuffing or undernerfing certain classes. Sorry i didnt point this out in the first place. But scientifically this is the correct order.

 

Btw we are talking about the data posted in this thread. Not about anything going on in ranked matches. If you add data from there to the equation you could validate the trend you are seeing by using a simple t-test and check if both spreads are part of the same main population.

 

tl;dr:_ Im for changes like buffing mesmer/engi (core classes in general) or nerfing willy/harbinger. But it has to be the right measure to not make the situation worse or just spin the wheel. 

[JTGuevara.9018]

3 hours ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

its the thing feb patch did, you just didnt notice cuz you played one of the blessed classes that didnt get nerfed properly.
this is what most build experienced post feb patch, good thing we had people like you praising the patch to high heavens.
 

EoD didn't slow the game, that was the Feb 2020 update. EoD did the opposite. It powercreeped new specs to the moon.

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, semak.7481 said:

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

There wasnt any case where scepter was carrying mesmer BEFORE any buffs, otherwise BUFF wouldnt occure in the first place. It was nerfed because chrono got 25 mights and brought it closer to rapid fire level of damage (while being 900 range and longer cast time and the fact that its not reflectable, but if my memory is correct, rapid fire is quite literally has 1900 range and faster cast time and more damage.

 

It dealt up to 9k power damage on medium armor last time I checked back then, definitely good enough.

  

18 minutes ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

EoD didn't slow the game, that was the Feb 2020 update. EoD did the opposite. It powercreeped new specs to the moon.

Hardly, much of the soft CC the EoD specs have is under PvE values. It's no wonder that even if you tweak damage people with old specs are still unable to do enough damage to win any fights reasonably.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

 

Im pointing out that this data isnt enough to justify any greater balacing changes.

The comps of the best teams in a tryhard tournaments tell more about balance than 10k ranked matches (or 10 random tournament matches), even more so when both go for the exact same setup. Because ranked is a clownfiesta where everyone plays whatever they want and barely anyone cares about what's "the best". It's those tryhard tournaments that bring out the truly broken stuff. And then there is no need for a big sample size. Context is relevant, not raw numbers.

[Downstate.4697]

I like how every game on saturday had core guard and every game on sunday had tempest. Called that kitten.

[semak.7481]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

It dealt up to 9k power damage on medium armor last time I checked back then, definitely good enough.

 

3 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

I remember Scepter on Mesmer to be the equivalent of class carry on it's third skill before it got buffed

Before buffs scepter did 9k? So, you are telling me, a skill, that did 9k and it wasnt used by anyone, despite hitting like a few trucks before buffs* and they decided to buff it...? 🤦‍♂️

Strange that you didnt see might stacked chrono 20k confusing images then 🙈

Edited May 23, 2022 by semak.7481

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, semak.7481 said:

 

Before buffs scepter did 9k? So, you are telling me, a skill, that did 9k and it wasnt used by anyone, despite hitting like a few trucks before buffs* and they decided to buff it...? 🤦‍♂️

Strange that you didnt see might stacked chrono 20k confusing images then 🙈

Strange nobody seemed to care that Hammer CoR could do 16k in a single hit on light armor either yet they decided to change it for the worst at the same time of Shortbow Sevenshot. 🤦‍♂️

What's the reasoning behind Anet? We'll never know! 🙈

[otto.5684]

6 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

 

Im pointing out that this data isnt enough to justify any greater balacing changes. Because of the sample size, the spread could be part of a bigger population (which is most certain). This results in a higher risk of error which would mean making the situation worse than it actually is by overbuffing or undernerfing certain classes. Sorry i didnt point this out in the first place. But scientifically this is the correct order.

 

Btw we are talking about the data posted in this thread. Not about anything going on in ranked matches. If you add data from there to the equation you could validate the trend you are seeing by using a simple t-test and check if both spreads are part of the same main population.

 

tl;dr:_ Im for changes like buffing mesmer/engi (core classes in general) or nerfing willy/harbinger. But it has to be the right measure to not make the situation worse or just spin the wheel. 

I agree with you on that. And even withe all that data, we need build specific data. I main guardian, and ya WB is over performing and to an extent core support  guardian (since nothing else is playable). Core dps guardian is okayish, DH is mediocre and FB is garbage in any form. If you look at the AT result alone you won’t know that.

 

And Anet devs have been excusing themselves from doing thorough changes cuz they were working hard on EoD, eligibly. Well… EoD has been out for four month now, and this bull kitten place holder nerfs are no longer excusable. They never were, but now, it is do or die for spvp. Spvp has been pretty bad, and it is reflected in the massive population drop, even though the game over all has gained players. If this next balance patch will be limited to nerfing few over performing specs, this is it. Spvp is pushed from the back burner to the trash.

[Zekent.3652]

On 5/22/2022 at 9:28 AM, Crab Fear.8623 said:

 

EU warriors are better than NA warriors.

This, NA is too used to ez mode classes/builds.

[semak.7481]

6 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Strange nobody seemed to care that Hammer CoR could do 16k in a single hit on light armor either yet they decided to change it for the worst at the same time of Shortbow Sevenshot. 🤦‍♂️

What's the reasoning behind Anet? We'll never know! 🙈

 

8 hours ago, semak.7481 said:

Strange that you didnt see might stacked chrono 20k confusing images then 🙈

It was a sarcasm, I'v never seen 20k confusing images, the highest on light armor after buff with might was 12-13k(might not be accurate , it was too long time ago) 

[mortrialus.3062]

On 5/22/2022 at 8:38 AM, bethekey.8314 said:

 

Yeah, basically.

I'm not sure if Core Mesmer / Warrior were as targeted as Core Engi for nerfs when their respective Elite specs were overperforming. But best nerf them anyway to be sure.

Nothing compares to the sheer level of gutting core mesmer skills and traits got over the course of PoF in order to hit Mirage instead.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

2 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Nothing compares to the sheer level of gutting core mesmer skills and traits got over the course of PoF in order to hit Mirage instead.

That kinda made sense though. 

Mesmer from the very beginning was anti fun by design. The entire identity of mesmer in pvp was build around being annoying. 

And Anet dialed it up to 11 when Mirage came out. 

I still remember the countless thread on the forum and reddit. All saying mesmer and Mirage sucks to play against. Not that it was op (for the most part). 

 

[semak.7481]

2 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Nothing compares to the sheer level of gutting core mesmer skills and traits got over the course of PoF in order to hit Mirage instead.

Do you wanna remember how chrono got nerfed core due to pve and pvp? I remembe them nerfing things left and right cuz of pve chrono and chronophantasma, then they reworked illusions and new round of nerfs on core began once again, chronophantama, core traits, heal, phantasms and whatnot. The most hilarious thing is, that they nuked chrono traitline and added more nerfs due to pve, they know how to beat the dead.

[Bale.3851]

13 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

I agree with you on that. And even withe all that data, we need build specific data. I main guardian, and ya WB is over performing and to an extent core support  guardian (since nothing else is playable). Core dps guardian is okayish, DH is mediocre and FB is garbage in any form. If you look at the AT result alone you won’t know that.

 

And Anet devs have been excusing themselves from doing thorough changes cuz they were working hard on EoD, eligibly. Well… EoD has been out for four month now, and this bull kitten place holder nerfs are no longer excusable. They never were, but now, it is do or die for spvp. Spvp has been pretty bad, and it is reflected in the massive population drop, even though the game over all has gained players. If this next balance patch will be limited to nerfing few over performing specs, this is it. Spvp is pushed from the back burner to the trash.

 

I totally agree. But the same devs that pushed WB from being garbage or medicore to god tier are now working on a patch to "balance" PVP in general. With shrinking player numbers SPVP keeps on dieing and so is WVW. This is why im voting for a better balancing through statistics and not by fortune telling or what ever it is they did.

 

Most of the time it feels like they balance like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz-PtEJEaqY

[Shao.7236]

9 hours ago, semak.7481 said:

 

It was a sarcasm, I'v never seen 20k confusing images, the highest on light armor after buff with might was 12-13k(might not be accurate , it was too long time ago) 

I still think it's worth counting up the amount of dumb decisions they keep making with their game as a whole rather than individually. I'm absolutely certain that there's a lot of non sense with all professions including the popular ones that could perhaps use a better change rather than be left as paperweight.