Bladesong cast times

[Sleepwalker.1398]

Dear Anet,

With all previous Mesmer specs having no cast time on shatters, i find it quite difficult to play Virtuoso with cast times on Bladesong with 250ms + ping.

It either doesn't go off when i hit it or i need to stop pressing everything for 2 seconds and stand still to get the shot off.
Possible you can look into this?

 

[Ombras.2853]

I have no particular issues with *specifically* the existence of casting time. I have a lot of issues, on the other hand, with the clunkiness of firing them. Make them faster (not sidesteppable), fireable from behind (yes, you can target + use them and then turn around, it’s not even remotely the same), make f3 a stun, cuz a daze on casting time is the most useless ability in the game.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Ombras.2853

[semak.7481]

2 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

I have a lot of issues, on the other hand, with the clunkiness of firing them. Make them faster (not sidesteppable), fireable from behind (yes, you can target + use them and then turn around, it’s not even remotely the same)

Hey hey hey, that might make virtuoso good, we dont want that. Some pvp balance intern probably

 

3 hours ago, Ombras.2853 said:

daze on casting time is the most useless ability in the game.

Did they fix virtuoso elite already? 

[ZDragon.3046]

Faster projectile speed so you cant side step them i agree...

No instant blade songs though.... this is the first mesmer elite you have made that actually feels balanced and comparable to every other class in the game dont ruin that. I do not want to be punished by stunned mesmers who didnt dodge my cc just because they press f2 or f3.... 

Also yeah no..... no firing from behind you need to be looking at your target but widen front cone checker a bit  that determines if you are facing your target or not that would help in general across a lot of professions with skills that require you to face your target.

Also unstable blade storm.... make the swirling storm of knives itself deal pulsing damage if someone is standing in it. 

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

17 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Faster projectile speed so you cant side step them i agree...

No instant blade songs though.... this is the first mesmer elite you have made that actually feels balanced and comparable to every other class in the game dont ruin that. I do not want to be punished by stunned mesmers who didnt dodge my cc just because they press f2 or f3.... 

Also yeah no..... no firing from behind you need to be looking at your target but widen front cone checker a bit  that determines if you are facing your target or not that would help in general across a lot of professions with skills that require you to face your target.

Also unstable blade storm.... make the swirling storm of knives itself deal pulsing damage if someone is standing in it. 

 

Steal sent its regards. 

With cast time the shatters don't allow any combo which is what mes is all about. 

As for firing behind I disagree, and I would fix every skill that allows it across the board instead. 

[ZDragon.3046]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Steal sent its regards. 

With cast time the shatters don't allow any combo which is what mes is all about. 

As for firing behind I disagree, and I would fix every skill that allows it across the board instead. 

Yes I agree that mesmer is all about interrupting your foes but that is not a pass to allow it while you are interrupted or cced. Thats going out of context. Yes a mesmer should by all means seek to distrupt its target and cause chaos with its shatters etc. However, we start getting dangerously close to the realm of unfair when its allowed to happen while the mesmer is cc'ed

That being said... Sorry no instant abilities that cc are proven to be problematic and frustrating actually let me rephrase that to be more clear.

Instant abilities are fine... allowing them to be used while you are cc'ed is not doubly so if those abilities inflict heavy damage impairing conditions like blind or out right cc your target. Its unhealthy to punish a player for properly landing their cc which you could have dodged or blocked with instant pressure from a cc skill like that. If you blind them with a break stun skill or something of that nature this is perfectly fine but just things like shatters its unhealthy

They specifically changed core necro shroud fear because of this and there is no reason why mesmer realistically should have the ability to do this either. 

Ime fine with making the los cone wider to reduce the number of accidental cancelations when strafing left or right but nah no high damage skills without looking at your target period. Anet has slowly been removing this from the game and im not about to sit here and even try to think of why there is any good reason that mesmer alone should have this. 

also late edit..
I agree steal is also unhealthy when the cc trait is applied to it and you shouldnt be able to use it while cc'ed. but steal is not a blade song and will not do nearly the amount of potential punishing damage a blade song can do lets not try to act like it would be the same thing.

Edited May 27, 2022 by ZDragon.3046

[semak.7481]

2 hours ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Faster projectile speed so you cant side step them i agree...

No instant blade songs though.... this is the first mesmer elite you have made that actually feels balanced and comparable to every other class in the game dont ruin that. I do not want to be punished by stunned mesmers who didnt dodge my cc just because they press f2 or f3.... 

Also yeah no..... no firing from behind you need to be looking at your target but widen front cone checker a bit  that determines if you are facing your target or not that would help in general across a lot of professions with skills that require you to face your target.

Also unstable blade storm.... make the swirling storm of knives itself deal pulsing damage if someone is standing in it. 

 

Okay, keep it like that, buff damage by 50% on F1 at least.

If not, they must remove face requirement, it takes 2 seconds before blades can hit you, I mean, you are crying about focus pull with 1s delay before it can pull you, I wouldnt be surprised, that 2 seconds is not enough for you to dodge it either 🤡

[ZDragon.3046]

Just now, semak.7481 said:

Okay, keep it like that, buff damage by 50% on F1 at least.

If not, they must remove face requirement, it takes 2 seconds before blades can hit you, I mean, you are crying about focus pull with 1s delay before it can pull you, I wouldnt be surprised, that 2 seconds is not enough for you to dodge it either 🤡

Wow how rude....

First off if they want to buff the damage on f1 thats something to consider possibly or make it more accurate in general. It having more damge might be ok but just making it less likely to miss might be all it needs.

Secondly sorry no i think the game is healthier if you need to face what you want to hit with a heavy single target projectile based ability.  I could literally make a list of skills that have been changed over the past year or two maybe 3 that had their ability to hit while walking away or not facing the target removed due to how problematic it makes the skill in terms of balance. Lets not go preaching the idea to bring it back only to get that same skill nerfed then have people coming here not understanding why blade song f1 deal literally no damage cause you can fire it off without needing to even look at your target. Lets not make more problems than we solve. 

Third I never cried about the focus pull. I simply suggested a theory on why it frustrates people based on what bothers me about it and explored possible solutions. IF anet adjust it or not i dont care but its clear that it bothers people or the form post wouldnt exist (i didnt even start that post). You would understand this if you took time to read my text. 

Fourth I would appreciate if you talked like you had some level of decency so that we can actually have a productive conversation (even if we dont agree). Im kinda tired of people always intentionally trying to gaslight rather than explore solutions together. Im tired of people being toxic an you are not helping in a positive way with your passive aggressive insults. 

 

[semak.7481]

I dont want to read your hate filled nonsense.

Damage on normal F1 isnt much different than garbageuoso, cooldowns are the same, it takes more effort to get 5 blades (well, not really if you take infinity forge, but with a must - unblockable shatter trait, which is most likely to be UNHEALTHY, but otherwise there is no way to get through all projectile hate you meet).

Its extremely clunky and frustrating to play, it must have QoL to make it less frustrating and irritating at the same time.

If they remove at least FACE requirement, it could have been WAY LESS frustrating to play while CAST TIME REMAINS and DELAY BEFORE BLADES CAN HIT YOU REMAINS.

But here you are, demanding it to stay trash because otherwise, despite it being perfectly telegraphed with a big delay, you will keep dying to it while chanting UNFAIR UNFAIR NERF NERF!111

If that would be some other class subforum and not as dead as this one, you would have been nuked with negative comments, not coming just from me(they did quit long ago because they listen to crybabies who cant ever learn to play), who is fed up with people like you and their L2P problems

[ZDragon.3046]

Just now, semak.7481 said:

I dont want to read your hate filled nonsense.

Damage on normal F1 isnt much different than garbageuoso, cooldowns are the same, it takes more effort to get 5 blades (well, not really if you take infinity forge, but with a must - unblockable shatter trait, which is most likely to be UNHEALTHY, but otherwise there is no way to get through all projectile hate you meet).

Its extremely clunky and frustrating to play, it must have QoL to make it less frustrating and irritating at the same time.

If they remove at least FACE requirement, it could have been WAY LESS frustrating to play while CAST TIME REMAINS and DELAY BEFORE BLADES CAN HIT YOU REMAINS.

But here you are, demanding it to stay trash because otherwise, despite it being perfectly telegraphed with a big delay, you will keep dying to it while chanting UNFAIR UNFAIR NERF NERF!111

If that would be some other class subforum and not as dead as this one, you would have been nuked with negative comments, not coming just from me(they did quit long ago because they listen to crybabies who cant ever learn to play), who is fed up with people like you and their L2P problems

ok... if you cant take the time to read what I write i dont see why i should bother doing you the same courtesy.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

[Duglaive.5236]

10 hours ago, semak.7481 said:

I dont want to read your hate filled nonsense.

Damage on normal F1 isnt much different than garbageuoso, cooldowns are the same, it takes more effort to get 5 blades (well, not really if you take infinity forge, but with a must - unblockable shatter trait, which is most likely to be UNHEALTHY, but otherwise there is no way to get through all projectile hate you meet).

Its extremely clunky and frustrating to play, it must have QoL to make it less frustrating and irritating at the same time.

If they remove at least FACE requirement, it could have been WAY LESS frustrating to play while CAST TIME REMAINS and DELAY BEFORE BLADES CAN HIT YOU REMAINS.

But here you are, demanding it to stay trash because otherwise, despite it being perfectly telegraphed with a big delay, you will keep dying to it while chanting UNFAIR UNFAIR NERF NERF!111

If that would be some other class subforum and not as dead as this one, you would have been nuked with negative comments, not coming just from me(they did quit long ago because they listen to crybabies who cant ever learn to play), who is fed up with people like you and their L2P problems

 

Even if you're 100% right, and I'm not saying you are or you aren't, you've got some issues to work out with yourself. This is a game, buddy. Just a game.

 

Quit frothing at your monitor, push back from the keyboard, and maybe get some fresh air or something.

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 hours ago, Duglaive.5236 said:

 

Even if you're 100% right, and I'm not saying you are or you aren't, you've got some issues to work out with yourself. This is a game, buddy. Just a game.

 

Quit frothing at your monitor, push back from the keyboard, and maybe get some fresh air or something.

Yes it is a game but at the same time people have been extremely invested in the class since day 1, having people who has no real business here talking how great the class is when aside from PvE isn't really all that great is the reason why Mesmer mains are "frothing". 

I've been looking into other forum threads and it seems like Mesmer gets the most "positive" feedback compared to other profession threads. 

[Duglaive.5236]

I really don't care if he, or you for that matter, are mesmer mains since beta. I easily get being upset about the state of mesmer beyond PvE, but that's not an excuse to act like that towards fellow players regardless how much you may disagree with them.  

 

And taking the tone I've seen used here (and of course all over the forums in general) is not going to convince anyone to consider your viewpoint; much less accept it.

 

Oh, and once again: it's just a game. But if frothing is all you got, you do you.

[Salt Mode.3780]

47 minutes ago, Duglaive.5236 said:

I really don't care if he, or you for that matter, are mesmer mains since beta. I easily get being upset about the state of mesmer beyond PvE, but that's not an excuse to act like that towards fellow players regardless how much you may disagree with them.  

 

And taking the tone I've seen used here (and of course all over the forums in general) is not going to convince anyone to consider your viewpoint; much less accept it.

 

Oh, and once again: it's just a game. But if frothing is all you got, you do you.

Again you are misconstruing my tone of text, I don't understand why you would be confused because there was no direct animosity towards you or anyone else. Its just an explanation why people take it more seriously then others. If someone is more passionate towards that game and "frothing" over their job its perfectly fine, however its not fine for you to try to pour fuel into the fire for no reason. If you dont "care" then simply ignore their "frothing" instead of directly replying to them only making things more heated.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Puck.3697]

IMHO they were trying to make virtuoso feel like a "caster". But yeah the cast time gets in the way of everything.

It in combination with movement speed and its telegraphing is just way to much. And nerfing its base damage to add it back on via a dumb trait that requires you to be in 400 yards to make use of is equally as stupid. 

Virtuoso is a decent idea held back by several mechanical decisions they made which are just flawed IMHO. 

- Shatters should have been target placed and AoE

- it's a ranged specc. Let it do full dmg from ranged not at 400 yards. 

- remove rhe requirement to hit the target for the bonus effects on the heal, just have if it lands applies 2 stacks of confusion to the enemy. 

- take the kitten cast time off the block. It's rly dumb. 

Instead we got shatters you side step and are based on the mesmers facing. A heal which is useless in reality, and stuck fighting at 400 yards if you don't wanna be nerfed. 

[Duglaive.5236]

7 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

 I don't understand why you would be confused 

I didn't give you the confused emoji; I don't use it as it rarely means anyone is actually confused. But nice assumption of my actions nonetheless.

 

As to the rest of your "rebuttal" ... I'm just going to let that go; you have a nice day, Salt Mode.

 

Sorry for the thread hijack, OP.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Lol again I never stated the confused emoji...seems like people are reading beyond basic comprehension, but lets get back on topic because it seems like trolls who love to go into different class forums trying to seem like they know the class but lack the foundations to make valid claims. 

The thing with bladesongs having cast time isn't even the biggest issue, its how its done.

1. You have to face your target.

2. Animation Locks

3. Huge visuals 

4. Sidestep-able

Its in combination with the cast time that makes bladesongs feel extremely awful in competitive play. This can be dismissible in PvE especially in a group setting where someone is pumping constant quickness as well as bosses dont tend to move that often outside of your vision or behind you. 

I've been only playing Virtuoso since the was released and the combination of flaws paired with the lackluster damage is not justified that its "ranged." As far as "condi" Virtuoso goes, everyone knows that as long as you dodge F2 which has extremely large visuals as well as animation locks, the main source of damage is gone. Any class that has high access to unblockable will be able to easily beat Virtuoso. Example would be Bladesworn, Catalyst, Thieves, Rangers or something that can proc their aegis faster then they can keep it up like other Mesmer specs like Mirage whose main source of damage is on clones with IH.

Its either or for me, either remove the cast times and have the issues above persist which is fine, OR have cast times but fix the issues above. Having both would be oppressive.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[ZDragon.3046]

On 5/29/2022 at 8:10 AM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Lol again I never stated the confused emoji...seems like people are reading beyond basic comprehension, but lets get back on topic because it seems like trolls who love to go into different class forums trying to seem like they know the class but lack the foundations to make valid claims. 

The thing with bladesongs having cast time isn't even the biggest issue, its how its done.

1. You have to face your target.

I dont see why having to face your target is a problem almost every skill on almost every other class requires you to do this Why should attacks like blade songs require you to not do that? I would prefer they just adjust the cone. That checks if you are facing you target to be a bit wider so your blade songs dont cancel as easily.

On 5/29/2022 at 8:10 AM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

2. Animation Locks

This is semi valid depending on which animations you are talking about then again every class also has a few of these and generally speaking you adapt to know when you should and shouldn't use those skills in most cases. Im not saying just because other classes have them that virtuoso should be doomed to have them as well. Again it depends on the skill, however, if everyone else on other professions adjust for that shouldn't it be a valid argument that perhaps the same should be done when playing virtuoso? 

On 5/29/2022 at 8:10 AM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

3. Huge visuals 

I dont see the problem with this Visuals are part of the game and to can be seen as a double edged sword. Visuals need to be their to see if you confirmed your hits as well as for others to ensure they can react to what you are doing. On the other end of that you have people who will play mirage and abuse mirage cloak giving it a needlessly large visual which is certainly not intended. (im sure you know what abusable tech im talking about) I certainly want to be see when any profession f1-f5 skill is gonna happen so i can at least try to react to it personally.

On 5/29/2022 at 8:10 AM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

4. Sidestep-able

I agree this should be fixed and shouldn't be a thing more projectile speed would fix this easily any projectile you can side step means the velocity is too slow.

On 5/29/2022 at 8:10 AM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Its in combination with the cast time that makes bladesongs feel extremely awful in competitive play. This can be dismissible in PvE especially in a group setting where someone is pumping constant quickness as well as bosses dont tend to move that often outside of your vision or behind you. 

This is some what understandable multiple things making it feel some what clunky how ever that does not mean everyone of those things needs to be fixed in order to make it decent and fair at the same time. Asking for faster projectiles is reasonable so people cannot side step them. Asking for no cast times and having the ability to fire them without needing to face your target  and reducing the tell on when they are fired all at once is a bit much. When the blade songs do hit they actually are super strong the issue most people have is their poor accuracy at a distance and the tendency for the skill to cancel while strafing left or right as you are technically not facing your target if you only hold a or d or what ever your side stepping buttons are without adjusting the camera in a certain way (which not everyone will do when playing)

 

On 5/29/2022 at 8:10 AM, Salt Mode.3780 said:

I've been only playing Virtuoso since the was released and the combination of flaws paired with the lackluster damage is not justified that its "ranged." As far as "condi" Virtuoso goes, everyone knows that as long as you dodge F2 which has extremely large visuals as well as animation locks, the main source of damage is gone. Any class that has high access to unblockable will be able to easily beat Virtuoso. Example would be Bladesworn, Catalyst, Thieves, Rangers or something that can proc their aegis faster then they can keep it up like other Mesmer specs like Mirage whose main source of damage is on clones with IH.

Its either or for me, either remove the cast times and have the issues above persist which is fine, OR have cast times but fix the issues above. Having both would be oppressive.

My concern with removing cast times in general (if its allowed) is that if the caster gets cc'ed while they have blades they can ideally just press f2 while the person is more than likely on them and free punish them while cc'ed Considering the potential damage any of the blade songs can technically do in competitive modes I think this would be extremely unwise to allow things like that. The visuals unfortunately need to stay and i think there should be no argument however my reason for saying this is that visuals of clones being spawned into the world was never an issue. 

The only thing I can think of is the fact that clones shattering on you could be very inconsistent depending on the distance they had to run to reach their target if you had 3 clones all at different distances their impacts hit at different time frames or from off screen if they were not all in your camera view. This at certain times made the small visual tell that shatters have a bit less noticeable and reliable (not always the case just some of the time) And of course you cant dodge something thats instant at point blank range you just need to assume when the caster was going to burst you. With Virtuoso being the first spec that actually has clear visuals when its casting its big damage profession skills i can see why some mesmer mains might be frustrated with the cast times and visuals. Its consistent  no matter how you try to use it (aside from out of stealth + point blank range) people technically always have a chance to dodge or react the moment you press f1-f4 which makes your damage harder to hit in just fair normal play not even counting accidental cancelations or not being able to use them while cc'ed.

The first thing I suggest is increased projectile speed to at least make them accurate and reduces the time your target has to react from a distance upon seeing you cast the blade song ever so slightly.

Next we try and get anet to adjust the cone so that blade songs dont cancel as easily while moving. If thats not possible we look at reducing the cast times just a bit, its the easier option that reduces the chance that you will cancel it while moving around.

IF thats not enough then perhaps more things can be explored from there. 

 

[Axl.8924]

If you don't mind me asking how's virtuoso in SPVP? earlier today i saw a guy in SPVP saying he had a better build with virtuoso i think it was sword sword not sure what second weapon was.

[Lysico.4906]

I am gold just about to hit plat 1.   Virtuoso is very good.      Kills harbingers very well and there are a ton of them 

[Zenith.7301]

On 5/27/2022 at 9:44 AM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Steal sent its regards. 

With cast time the shatters don't allow any combo which is what mes is all about. 

As for firing behind I disagree, and I would fix every skill that allows it across the board instead. 

 

Steal should have a cast time and a tell (just as they did with signet actives for mesmer and necro), and backstab should have a telegraph. Shadowstep should have a longer cd for what it does (50 sec cd for 2x teleport, 1x stun break, x2 condi cleanse; compare to ele lightning flash or mesmer blink, necro wurm, totally outclasses them). Shadowstep/sword 2 should not allow to channel a stomp while 900+ range away. Missing backstab should reveal the thief.

Just because one class has a particularly OP feature doesn't mean another class should. Thieves are a problem in WvW, as are guardians and warriors and soulbeasts. Fix these instead of creating more thief analogs in other classes.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Zenith.7301

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

7 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

Steal should have a cast time and a tell (just as they did with signet actives for mesmer and necro), and backstab should have a telegraph. Shadowstep should have a longer cd for what it does (50 sec cd for 2x teleport, 1x stun break, x2 condi cleanse; compare to ele lightning flash or mesmer blink, necro wurm, totally outclasses them). Shadowstep/sword 2 should not allow to channel a stomp while 900+ range away. Missing backstab should reveal the thief.

Just because one class has a particularly OP feature doesn't mean another class should. Thieves are a problem in WvW, as are guardians and warriors and soulbeasts. Fix these instead of creating more thief analogs in other classes.

Steal instant is fine, steal problem is that is a bloated skill and does way too much. 

By nerfing the instant you do the same thing ANerf did by adding cast time to f skills, you're ruining the entire skills purpose, combos. 

Missing a skill should remove stealth and a telegraphed stealth skill I also agree. 

Shadowstep not so much, it's a very good skill indeed but with a CD above blink for that reason. 

[ZDragon.3046]

13 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

Steal should have a cast time and a tell (just as they did with signet actives for mesmer and necro), and backstab should have a telegraph. Shadowstep should have a longer cd for what it does (50 sec cd for 2x teleport, 1x stun break, x2 condi cleanse; compare to ele lightning flash or mesmer blink, necro wurm, totally outclasses them). Shadowstep/sword 2 should not allow to channel a stomp while 900+ range away. Missing backstab should reveal the thief.

Just because one class has a particularly OP feature doesn't mean another class should. Thieves are a problem in WvW, as are guardians and warriors and soulbeasts. Fix these instead of creating more thief analogs in other classes.

Some versions of steal do have a cast time ideally steal being instant is fine. Steal being instant with the daze applied is not. Meaning the trait that causes steal to daze could maybe be adjusted. Keep in mind steal is a profession mechanic and not a utility skill like signets.

 

Shadow step is fine as it is.

Lightning flahs and blink are both fine as they are.

Necro wurm is technically speaking the weakest of the bunch as you have to set it up before you can use it its not truely built as a instant mobility skill like blink or lightning flash. 

You cant channel a stomp with sword 2 anymore they fixed that ages ago. (as far as i know the return and the port in are actions that interrupt the stomp animations) 

This post is a bit off the topic of blade songs though.

[Senqu.8054]

Yeah steal should have 3 seconds cast time and the thief using steal should also have a huge blinking light bulb for at least 3 seconds above his head before performing steal. /s

[Salt Mode.3780]

As a class that got our mechanics screwed over many times I rather them not touch steal as much as I detest thieves. However I agree that everyone should be revealed when an attack misses dodge or blocked.