Im pretty sick of failing Dragons End meta

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

People really need to stop with this mindset... Not being able to have the game on second monitor is not hardcore content, it never was.

Noone said Open World is meant to be hardcore, Raizel said that GW2's open world is so easy you can do OW stuff while watching a movie or anything like that. Having to pay attention to something in the game doesn't magically make it a Raid.

If something is inconvenient, or requires more than minimum effort it doesn't automatically mean you are Raiding.

The majority don't have a problem with the mechanics .

But who created the rule that you must improve your dps , to succeed in an OW area ?

Lets keep that mentality in Raids

[mythical.6315]

4 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

The majority don't have a problem with the mechanics .

But who created the rule that you must improve your dps , to succeed in an OW area ?

Lets keep that mentality in Raids

The low DPS is a result of many of those not actually able to perform the mechanics as well as playing in such a manner that they do very low damage regardless of mechanics.  The DPS threshold to succeed that meta, as far as the individual player, is fairly low. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

The low DPS is a result of many of those not actually able to perform the mechanics as well as playing in such a manner that they do very low damage regardless of mechanics. 

But do they whine about survival ?

Or they cannot do the jumping puzzle -wisp 

Or don't know what cc-breaker is ?

Or follow the commander  ?

 

Why one part of the community must push the other to increase their dps ?

[Erise.5614]

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Implies what? Those skills are explained withing the content of EoD itself on the way you get to DE, starting with the training grounds heart early in the expansion.

And it still doesn't somehow imply that everyone has "min-max mindset", I don't get how you're getting from "point a" to "point b" here.

You're using some CC skill/s on breakbars? It means you're minmaxing! -no, it doesn't.

 

Defiance is a side mechanic that adds a small percentage based DPS buff. I've had several runs where we didn't break a single one and still succeeded.

And combo fields aren't just unnecessary, they are impractical as you do not have control over the type of field you're standing in. Since everyone is so grouped up.

The min-max mindset comes from the need to understand most of the combat system and actively make choices that maximize DPS.

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Yeah, not only "you don't need to be perfect in min-maxing", but for what's required here, you don't need to "min-max" at all. Again, understanding and using game's mechanics has nothing to do with min-maxing by itself, it's much more than that.

It seems the miscommunication here comes from your misuse/misunderstanding of the terms you're trying to use. Again, the mere understanding/utilizing of game's mechanics (which is what was said in the post above, right?) by itself is not even close to "min-maxing", so this is absolutely not what was "suggested" in the post you were responding to.

The definition of min maxing is literally "the character-building strategy of maximizing a specific desirable ability, skill, or other power of a character and minimizing everything else, seen as undesirable."

And depending on the complexity of a game, understanding the systems fully can be far beyond what the average player will learn. At least unless the developer invests heavily into elaborate training systems that make sure players learn each individual concept, get to experiment with it, train it, get tested on it and then keep using the mechanic regularly, indefinitely. Otherwise players will forget / overlook it. 

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

...isn't AB one of those metas where if everyone participating would go for the meta mechanics, half of them would just make "empty runs" since the mechanics would just be done anyways? Pretty sure that's a fact, considering that a lot of the times people straight up need to striaght up semi-afk to wait for other sides to be ready. (admittedly, I think it's less so "now", since the dps is high enough for people to not even bother waiting and it still just succeeds

You have not been playing a lot of AB my friend!

Most runs have ~10-15 players on each side. Meaning everyone has to run at least once. At least most of the time. And even if not, there's a secondary task that's neglected by those people as well. Killing frogs.

And waiting on other lanes has gotten rare. Most people rotate to make sure the event gets completed in time. It's not unusual for 40+ players to end up on a single side.

Though it's fine if you prefer to kick back, relax and rather just wait on the others ; ) 

 

[Mara.6782]

Why Guild wars 2 has anything else than berserk or viper gear? It's always dps. Do max damage or you fail. Remove timer and problem is solved. This is openworld event not raid. Bosses can be challenging without timer. This game has really bad issue with dps is everything mentality. Make other stats useful to use or remove them.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

11 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

Why one part of the community must push the other to increase their dps ?

Because the "other" part won't do it by themselves. The "other" part sticks to complaining that whatever that can't be steamrolled is Raid content. 

There's a problem, a solution is presented, the solution is ignored and replaced by complaining that - if it leads to anything - takes weeks to produce a result, while just checking what you can do can lead to better results in hours.

The forums are filled with LI builds that literally involve pressing between 2 to 4 buttons to reach numbers even Raiders can reach with their "high DPS" builds. If mechanics, cc, positioning aren't a problem, but people are still failing then the reason is simply damage.

Early on you saw people complaining about "hardcore" groups, complaining about Hardstuck runs, then now that most of the people have finally realized it's not worth it for the reward and moved on the complaints shifted to pugs not being good enough.

[Sobx.1758]

28 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

But do they whine about survival ?

Or they cannot do the jumping puzzle -wisp 

Or don't know what cc-breaker is ?

Or follow the commander  ?

 

Why one part of the community must push the other to increase their dps ?

Your constant narrative about "one community pushing the other one to do x" is just boring and false. No community pushes here anyone to do anything. The game has content and mechanics that it utilizes in order to complete those mechanics. People can learn the relevant mechanics in order to complete the content or they can refuse to do so and in turn fail the content because of "a", "b" or "c". You're trying to dissect that into "cc", "commander", "survival", "dps" and who knows what else, but it doesn't work in isolation, all of these things work together and are needed to successfully complete the content. Just because some players with -apparently- better understanding of the game try to help the other players, while a lot of the times those will instead revert into writing "elitist!" and "I don't want to do that" doesn't mean anyone is pushing anyone else. You can either use the help you get from other players to have easier time with improving or you can refuse and stay where you are. Have fun, whatever you choose.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Erise.5614]

9 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Your constant narrative about "one community pushing the other one to do x" is just boring and false. No community pushes here anyone to do anything. The game has content and mechanics that it utilizes in order to complete those mechanics. People can learn the relevant mechanics in order to complete the content or they can refuse to do so and in turn fail the content because of "a", "b" or "c". You're trying to dissect that into "cc", "commander", "survival", "dps" and who knows what else, but it doesn't work in isolation, all of these things work together and are needed to successfully complete the content. Just because some players with -apparently- better understanding of the game try to help the other players, while a lot of the times those will instead revert into writing "elitist!" and "I don't want to do that" doesn't mean anyone is pushing anyone else. You can either use the help you get from other players to have easier time with improving or you can refuse and stay where you are. Have fun, whatever you choose.

You know. This very thing works excellently during those huge weekend meta trains. Where a few commanders run these 6h+ meta event chains with explanations, optional voice comms, advice in squad chat and, if someone asks, build help. They are perfectly happy.

Same with lots of raid training groups. There's usually very little negative response towards advice.

Because the people who receive advice are actively looking for it. 

But Dragon's End is a normal OW map. It's like adding a new raid wing which only has bosses at the difficulty level of Golem MK 2. People would, rightfully, be outraged as that is not appropriate raid content. 

The DPS check and departure from previous content was too steep is the problem. While presenting it the same if not more prominently than most previous meta events. Suggesting a very different level of necessary preparation and knowledge than is actually required.

If that was in line. If this was a different content format. If the DPS check was lower. If you had more control over instances. If it was advertised as hardcore content. If it did not has key expansion features locked behind it. It would not have seen the backlash it received. It would just have been ignored as you suggest.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Raizel.8175]

58 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

I do want to point out that a basic assumption behind your theory here is that everyone wants to become a min/max player and the only reason they aren't performing well is laziness. 

No. Really not. When I started playing GW2, I just took some random dps-optimized open world build from metabattle and did 10k~15k DPS in HoT meta events. Since I was actually interested in playing the game as an MMORPG, I took part in organized meta trains and - duh... - socialized. That even got - at that time - clueless me into raids. All that without ever trying to min/max everything.

GW2 also doesn't require min/maxing at all. GW2 is a rather skill-spammy game. If you've followed the thread about the Hs accessibility challenge, you'd realize that a decent build and decent gear will do most of the damage. Those LI builds reach 30k+ DPS with 20 APM and below.

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

This does not at all match up with my experience. The people "leeching" are often people with several legendaries and deal a significant amount of DPS during burn phases. They just don't do mechanics.

You know, that's exactly why I love events like DE - because you have to play the game instead of leeching. I myself often leech certain events like Octovine simply because the event design really favors leeching and perusing second monitor content. I can just do damage on the Octovine and call it a day. DE on the other hand forces me to play which is simply good game design.

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

While most people who perform poorly are active the entire time. It appears they just have poor builds, poor traits, wrong skills or all of that combined. 

The people who perform poorly are - at least in my experience - people who don't even bother and keep dying to AoEs.

1 hour ago, ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

People really need to stop with this mindset... Open World is NOT meant to be hardcore content, it never was

Open World is literally casual content, that's why it's OPEN WORLD, it ain't supposed to be Raids/Strikes/Fractals... 

I never said that open world content should be hardcore content. It's just wrong though to assume that there can't be difficulty progression/variety in open world content. Just because DE needs you to do some mechanics and have some DPS doesn't mean that it's hardcore content. The only thing that's remotely hardcore about DE is organizing maps. You also can't have the entirety of open world content consist of farming maps. You do need some prestige content - even in open world - that leads to community building which - surprise, surprise! - DE actually does. There are several DE guilds now which do DE daily which is awesome.

52 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Calling the skills necessary to beat Soo Won the basic knowledge of fundamental game mechanics implies this.

Not really. After almost 10 years of build-up and the EoD content leading to DE (including the tutorial area), basic knowledge of fundamental game mechanics at least consists of dodging, CC and proper movement. Add DE and Jade Bot buffs and that alone should be sufficient to beat DE if you have at least a halfway decent build.

55 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

You need to optimize your gameplay for combat efficiency.

Well, you're fighting a friggin' dragon. Makes sense to focus a little bit on combat, right?

56 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

You don't need to be perfect at min maxing. But you need to understand most things relating to the combat system and actively make choices towards optimal output.

You need to at least try and min/max. Players making decisions for, as example, roleplaying reasons are doing it objectively wrong and harm their maps chances.

No. Basic game mechanics and a decent build. A decent build already allows you to just smash your head into your keyboard for decent DPS. More than that in nice to have, but not necessary.

58 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

The elitist part is the simultaneous belief that everyone has to become really good at the game to keep playing (e.g. "the game has been too easy so people never had to learn") while simultaneously complaining about players who are not yet at that point. Blaming them for not having a good time.

Most people just want to get things done comfortably which includes people being able to pull their own weight by knowing about and applying fundamental game mechanics. That's in no way hardcore but - at least in every other MMORPG - the standard and common sense. It's perfectly reasonable in that regard to argue that the majority of open world content has been too easy if people won't know about and/or are able to deal with those fundamental game mechanics.

[Sobx.1758]

30 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Defiance is a side mechanic that adds a small percentage based DPS buff. I've had several runs where we didn't break a single one and still succeeded.

"Side mechanic"? What does it even supposed to mean? It's a regular game mechanic for longer than it wasn't.

Quote

And combo fields aren't just unnecessary, they are impractical as you do not have control over the type of field you're standing in. Since everyone is so grouped up.

I don't understand what you're responding right now. Be sure to explain how you went from my post (or even the previous ones in this comment chain) to this response, because I'm lost here.

Quote

The min-max mindset comes from the need to understand most of the combat system and actively make choices that maximize DPS.

And nothing that was written in this comment chain has anything to do with strictly "min-maxing". Using CC against break bars =/= min-maxing. Having 7k -or whatever- dps =/= minmaxing. Anything written in the posts you've responded to isn't automatically "min-maxing" by itself, you just randomly brought it up by yourself and pretended that the post you answered to had anything to do with min-maxing, but it doesn't.

Quote

The definition of min maxing is literally "the character-building strategy of maximizing a specific desirable ability, skill, or other power of a character and minimizing everything else, seen as undesirable."

Yeah, more or less -and including a cc ability or two, including the weapon while dealing sort of reasonable damage has nothing to do with "min-maxing" as opposed to what you were trying to pretend in your posts.

tl;dr for someone trying to take a shortcut to "min-max" -go to meta builds, rip those builds, practice rotation until you're good at it, add it to optimally completing mechanics and then you can talk about "trying to min-max". Just mentioning understanding of the mechanics and dealing ok-ish dmg has nothing to do with "min-max mentality", so just stop pretending it does. Apparently you simply lack understanding of the term you were trying to use.

Quote

You have not been playing a lot of AB my friend!

Most runs have ~10-15 players on each side. Meaning everyone has to run at least once. At least most of the time. And even if not, there's a secondary task that's neglected by those people as well. Killing frogs.

And waiting on other lanes has gotten rare. Most people rotate to make sure the event gets completed in time. It's not unusual for 40+ players to end up on a single side.

Though it's fine if you prefer to kick back, relax and rather just wait on the others ; )

I've played enough in the past and a few times recently -which is also why I wrote in my post that waiting for other people is less of a fact now, considering the dps, didn't I? 🤨  And that dps is still part of "pulling their own weight", especially considering the context of these responses -context you apparently want to carefully walk around in your posts 😄

Edited May 30, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Raizel.8175]

47 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

The majority don't have a problem with the mechanics .

Really? In clownfiesta squads with a low amout of organization and communication, I still see half of the squad dying to Soo Wons one-hit AoE.

49 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

But who created the rule that you must improve your dps , to succeed in an OW area ?

Lets keep that mentality in Raids

7k on average isn't hardcore. You'd be kicked out of every single raid with that amount of DPS if you play anything apart from full support builds.

29 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Defiance is a side mechanic that adds a small percentage based DPS buff. I've had several runs where we didn't break a single one and still succeeded.

You don't even need to break Soo Wons defiance bar to finish DE with ~5 minutes left on the timer. In the DE guild I've joined, people just don't bother and simply go for the tail instead.

30 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

And combo fields aren't just unnecessary, they are impractical as you do not have control over the type of field you're standing in. Since everyone is so grouped up.

Combo fields aren't necessary either, but they sure are amazing if used correctly.

28 minutes ago, Mara.6782 said:

Why Guild wars 2 has anything else than berserk or viper gear? It's always dps. Do max damage or you fail. Remove timer and problem is solved. This is openworld event not raid. Bosses can be challenging without timer. This game has really bad issue with dps is everything mentality. Make other stats useful to use or remove them.

You can also easily use Marauder/Dragon/Trailblazer/Ritualist or other stat combinations and still do decent DPS. In fact, most open world builds are hybrids between DPS and survivability.

[Sobx.1758]

14 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

You know. This very thing works excellently during those huge weekend meta trains. Where a few commanders run these 6h+ meta event chains with explanations, optional voice comms, advice in squad chat and, if someone asks, build help. They are perfectly happy.

Your whole comment just blows up on the notion where you try to pretend these squads are somehow limited to "those special weekend times" in the sole attempt to claim "not everyone can". But these squads are not "just on weekends" and learning the game is also not somehow limited to certain times or days.

Quote

The DPS check and departure from previous content was too steep is the problem. While presenting it the same if not more prominently than most previous meta events. Suggesting a very different level of necessary preparation and knowledge than is actually required.

Yeah, yeah, I know "those pushes giving the players icentive to improve would be ok, if only they wouldn't required the players to improve", right. What would be "an ok dps check or departure from the previous content(??)" ? The one where the players that have an incentive to improve wouldn't need to improve and just kept having an easy time to get carried like in the old metas, right? Or what "line" exactly are you trying to draw here? Because for now this is basically blaming "incentive to improve" for being "incentive to improve" and pretending it would be ok for it to exist if only... it didn't existed.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[mythical.6315]

52 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

But do they whine about survival ?

Or they cannot do the jumping puzzle -wisp 

Or don't know what cc-breaker is ?

Or follow the commander  ?

 

Why one part of the community must push the other to increase their dps ?

Increasing DPS is also about uptime which is lost if you’re failing mechanics or performing then poorly. 

There is no jumping puzzle involved with that meta. There is the airship with the WP as well as zip lines. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Because the "other" part won't do it by themselves. The "other" part sticks to complaining that whatever that can't be steamrolled is Raid content. 

There's a problem, a solution is presented, the solution is ignored and replaced by complaining that - if it leads to anything - takes weeks to produce a result, while just checking what you can do can lead to better results in hours.

The forums are filled with LI builds that literally involve pressing between 2 to 4 buttons to reach numbers even Raiders can reach with their "high DPS" builds. If mechanics, cc, positioning aren't a problem, but people are still failing then the reason is simply damage.

Early on you saw people complaining about "hardcore" groups, complaining about Hardstuck runs, then now that most of the people have finally realized it's not worth it for the reward and moved on the complaints shifted to pugs not being good enough.

If people want to get gud , and join Raids , then they will practice and then join Raids .

Whoever wants to relax and do open world content should not be forced to do 6k , just like other OW events

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

Increasing DPS is also about uptime which is lost if you’re failing mechanics or performing then poorly. 

There is no jumping puzzle involved with that meta. There is the airship with the WP as well as zip lines. 

But people don't have a problem with the mechanics , they have with the timer .

A dps check timer , doesn't make the content more exciting , not from the casual prospective .

A raider might love that , so keep it there

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

If people want to get gud , and join Raids , then they will practice and then join Raids .

Whoever wants to relax and do open world content should not be forced to do 6k , just like other OW events

Raids have nothing to do with this thread or the posts you're quoting, so you can stop fixating on that word.

The only thing "OW needs to be" is... to not be instanced. Nothing about "open world" specifies some strict difficulty levels that you're trying to bring up as its inherent part.

2 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

But people don't have a problem with the mechanics , they have with the timer .

A dps check timer , doesn't make the content more exciting , not from the casual prospective .

People have problems with timers partially because they have problems with the mechanics. It's not just dps, it's both.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Krzysztof.5973]

I agree with forum frogs on this one. General GW2 population is not capable of consistently clearing DE meta. Some even after playing this game for a decade are unable to pull their own weight. Let's just accept it and nerf it even more. Make open world content relaxed so anyone in any build can do it. There is literally zero reasons to educate people how to properly play their characters so far into game's lifespan. Everybody outside GW2's bubble already sees it as a game for casuals anyway. 

[mythical.6315]

Just now, Luci.7018 said:

But people don't have a problem with the mechanics , they have with the timer .

A dps check timer , doesn't make the content more exciting , not from the casual prospective .

A raider might love that , so keep it there

They do have a problem with the mechanics if they are getting downed to the very well telegraphed ground AoE, if they are taking too long to swap to the tail and destroy it, etc. Players are either collectively failing mechanics or performing them poorly. There is of course DPS but that threshold is very low and isn’t anywhere near raid level. 

[Raizel.8175]

4 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

Whoever wants to relax and do open world content should not be forced to do 6k , just like other OW events

 

2 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

A dps check timer , doesn't make the content more exciting , not from the casual prospective .

Just saying: If everyone in open world would play that way, you'd fail certain events with timers. One of the more prominent examples would probably be Chak Gerent. If everyone wouldn't care about any kind of decent DPS, you'd probably have at least all three DPS phases or maybe even fail the event.

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Raids have nothing to do with this thread or the posts you're quoting, you can stop repeating that word in order to demonize autors of the posts you're responding to.

 

People have problems with timers partially because they have problems with the mechanics.

Mathew is saying that if they are not  forced to learn to do dps  , they won't ever learn . Why force them , what do they gain ?

 

They have problems with high boss HP

[Erise.5614]

 

8 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Your whole comment just blows up on the notion where you try to pretend these squads are somehow limited to "those special weekend times" in the sole attempt to claim "not everyone can". But these squads are not "just on weekends" and learning the game is also not somehow limited to certain times or days.

It's really interesting how you do not quite understand every comment I'm writing, go by extremely negative assumptions and then argue against those.

I'm not talking about Dragon's End here. They don't spend 6 hours in Dragon's End every weekend. They cycle through just about every meta event in the game. 

And they only run on weekends because that is their regularly scheduled journey around the world's meta events. People jump in from LFG, stay for one event, for an hour, for a few hours, join the guild or what not. The point was that it's a voluntary opt in way of being offered help and knowledge. Run by people who's primary goal is for everyone to have a good time. Truly fantastic stuff! 

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

They do have a problem with the mechanics if they are getting downed to the very well telegraphed ground AoE, if they are taking too long to swap to the tail and destroy it, etc. Players are either collectively failing mechanics or performing them poorly. There is of course DPS but that threshold is very low and isn’t anywhere near raid level. 

They whine about the time to kill the boss run out .

Not with the difficulty , or complexity , or survibility

Edited May 30, 2022 by Luci.7018

[Sobx.1758]

4 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

Mathew is saying that if they are not  forced to learn to do dps  , they won't ever learn . Why force them , what do they gain ?

 

They have problems with high boss HP

You don't need to learn the game, but then obviously you shouldn't count on completing it's content. That's how the game works, there's nothing out of ordinary about it. "why force them"? Again, nobody is forcing them, you can keep replaying whater you want to keep replaying.

3 minutes ago, Luci.7018 said:

They whine about the time to kill the boss run out .

Not with the difficulty , or complexity , or survibility

They whine about the time to kill, but failing mechanics takes their time, ability to dps and so on. You fail to understand that mechanics and dps are both connected to the time in which you're able to finish the event. The idea you're trying to push here, which is nothing more than "since the timer ends, it means it's low dps' fault!" is simply wrong. If you keep constantly getting knocked down or even downed/killed, you lose more dps than you do by.... just having low dps.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

 

Just saying: If everyone in open world would play that way, you'd fail certain events with timers. One of the more prominent examples would probably be Chak Gerent. If everyone wouldn't care about any kind of decent DPS, you'd probably have at least all three DPS phases or maybe even fail the event.

Or we can increase the diffulty to cause a party wipe ... like CM Strike number 3

[Luci.7018]

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You don't need to learn the game, but then obviously you shouldn't count on completing it's content. That's how the game works, there's nothing out of ordinary about it. "why force them"? Again, nobody is forcing them, you can keep replaying whater you want to keep replaying.

Yeah , they should stick the timers on the Raids and leave them out of OW , from now on .

Soo won you can have it

Edited May 30, 2022 by Luci.7018