The Curious Case of Malyck and the "Other Tree"

[Its Spooky.5917]

For the longest time I've wondered about Malyck and what I personally nickname his "Other Tree" (as opposed to Mother Tree, har har). Bringing up the possibility of there being more Pale Trees was too crazy for me to just forget about, which I sadly can't say the same for the ANET writers, and after many years of it occasionally coming to mind I've come to what I believe to be the most plausible theory about Malyck and his origins.

 

Before I get into it I don't know if this is a beaten horse of a topic or theory so bear with me. I'm also not saying that this is absolutely certain or undeniable fact, but rather I would simply like to bring up and discuss the plausibility of what is presented.

 

My theory about Malyck's origins - where he comes from, his special relations to Dream and Nightmare, and the "Other Tree" - is that he is a cleansed Mordrem in a similar example to Mawdrey II and the Pale Tree.
Before you say "Madness!" hear me out; I strongly believe that the Nightmare is connected to Mordremoth and is an abstract echo of his will. The Nightmare's revelry in excess cruelty and destruction vaguely mirrors the same revelry the Mordrem express in carrying out their master's will to destroy everything that is not of Mordremoth. Also, a really strong implication behind the connection between the Nightmare and Mordremoth's relation is the Shadow of the Dragon, one of Mordremoth's champions that appeared in the Nightmare's attack on the Dream in the tutorial.
So, keeping that in mind I would also like to bring up Mordremoth's commanders and their special "champion" status among the Mordrem. It is possible Malyck was originally meant to be one such commander-champion of Mordremoth, and the Nightmare, being the abstract mirror of Mordremoth, recognized this, and the Nightmare court were thus naturally attracted to him and dubbed him the Nightmare's "harbinger".

Being originally Mordrem, Malyck's "Other Tree" could therefore be the only other variety of Pale Tree we've seen period - A Blighting Tree, resulting in his disconnection from the thoughts of his fellow Sylvari and his special status as the Nightmare's harbinger.

 

This is where it becomes less of a theory and stretches into the territory of speculation;

The only stump I've hit with my theory was the question of how. Someone could have possibly discovered him, just like Ronan discovered the Pale Tree.
The most plausible would be a survivor of the Silverwastes centaurs that found his pod and raised him to become who he was instead of a Mordrem, much like Mawdrey II.

Malyck being discovered and hunted by the Court long before you meet him coincides with this because the Silverwastes is not unfamiliar territory to the Nightmare Court, whom killed the Silverwastes centaurs in the first place. Malyck likely lost his memories while trying to evade them as he claims his earliest memories was waking up on a riverbank.

 

TL;DR Malyck is actually a would-be Mordrem commander, the Nightmare is the abstract echo of Mordremoth's will, and Malyck's tree of origin was a Blighting Tree.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Wasn't it confirmed that they planned for Malyks tree to be in Hot but they scrapped it because it didn't fit the story? 

Pretty sure. 

[anninke.7469]

14 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Wasn't it confirmed that they planned for Malyks tree to be in Hot but they scrapped it because it didn't fit the story? 

Pretty sure. 

Yes, something along those lines. Later, Matthew Medina said somewhere he had something in mind for Malyck and hoped he'd be able to get it in the game... which apparently hasn't happened so far. Meanwhile, Malyck and Zojja keep partying on in the realm of the discarded. Sadly they had to part with Laranthir who was sneakily returned to his military position Just. Like. That. No explanation whatsoever why the hell he was away when he should have been leading the Vigil and why he's suddenly back now.

Well, rant over, I guess... 😅

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

4 hours ago, anninke.7469 said:

 Sadly they had to part with Laranthir who was sneakily returned to his military position Just. Like. That. No explanation whatsoever why the hell he was away when he should have been leading the Vigil and why he's suddenly back now.

Well, rant over, I guess... 😅

There was a note you could find in Bjora talking about him wanting to take a leave of absence to the Grove, following the defeat of Kralkatorrik,  which is why he wasn't there during the time of Icebrood Saga.

Sometimes people need a break after spending nearly a decade non stop fighting dragon minions.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Andy.5981]

The Wiki details a lot of backstory for Malyck

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malyck

 

[Teratus.2859]

Mmmm scrapped story for HoT as we all know.

But frankly that's not entirely a bad thing since it leaves the door open for a different story to be told.

 

Gw2 is entering a pretty interesting phase for story development thanks to various retcons over the years so it's at least possible that Malyck's story will be revisited some day.

For me my biggest story interest atm is what the hell is going on deep in the unending ocean now that we know the Water Dragon was not! the monster responsible for the horrors that drove the Krait, Largos and Karka from the depths and that had also been terrorizing sailors crossing it.

 

Retcons and cut content don't have to be the end of a story ^^ sometimes they lay a foundation for an even better one.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Teratus.2859

[maxwelgm.4315]

The Nightmare is a "fact" and "just there" as an amalgamate of painful memories gathering in the Pale Tree's mindscape. It has been planned to originate from Mordremoth if I recall but this has been scrapped. The Nightmare is its own thing apart from Mordremoth's Call (with a capital C - the actual Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts he sent to manipulate Sylvari through whispers - independent from both the Dream and Nightmare aspects).

 

That said, whatever they had planned for Malyck definitely has to go through some changes if they ever bring it back, since we are now fully aware of the role of the Elder Dragons and what caused them to go mad to begin with. But there are many interesting paths they can take as, ironically, we don't know as much about the Sylvari themselves as we know about Mordremoth.

[voltaicbore.8012]

54 minutes ago, maxwelgm.4315 said:

That said, whatever they had planned for Malyck definitely has to go through some changes if they ever bring it back, since we are now fully aware of the role of the Elder Dragons and what caused them to go mad to begin with. But there are many interesting paths they can take as, ironically, we don't know as much about the Sylvari themselves as we know about Mordremoth.

I agree it probably can't take the whatever form it was planned to have with the HoT release, as there have been major updates to how we see Elder Dragons and the world since then.

However, I really do hope that if ANet decides to put Malyck back into the story somewhere, they will feel confident enough to make it a smaller, more self-contained story. I don't think they have to try too hard to make it fit into the (now concluded) massive Elder Dragon narrative. I mean, I'd be satisfied with the Blighting Tree > Centaur Raised > Nightmare Court hunted route that's already been outlined in the thread. I don't think we need to explore Mordremoth's corruption/change/etc or anything deeper.

[anninke.7469]

4 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

There was a note you could find in Bjora talking about him wanting to take a leave of absence to the Grove, following the defeat of Kralkatorrik,  which is why he wasn't there during the time of Icebrood Saga.

Sometimes people need a break after spending nearly a decade non stop fighting dragon minions.

Yes, I know. I still would have appreciated if he had more to say when we got to talk to him again. Because right now the whole thing very much smells of "we forgot about him and who cares anyway".

[Its Spooky.5917]

On 6/1/2022 at 9:38 AM, anninke.7469 said:

Yes, I know. I still would have appreciated if he had more to say when we got to talk to him again. Because right now the whole thing very much smells of "we forgot about him and who cares anyway".

I wasn't aware Laranthir came back. I wish I could have known that sooner since I was hoping he would, although that's disappointing to hear that he got a little sidelined, as I was hoping he would become as prominent as Almorra in the role of General.
Sadly the wiki hasn't caught up to writing his activity post-IBS so I can't read it myself.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 6/1/2022 at 11:19 PM, voltaicbore.8012 said:

I agree it probably can't take the whatever form it was planned to have with the HoT release, as there have been major updates to how we see Elder Dragons and the world since then.

However, I really do hope that if ANet decides to put Malyck back into the story somewhere, they will feel confident enough to make it a smaller, more self-contained story. I don't think they have to try too hard to make it fit into the (now concluded) massive Elder Dragon narrative. I mean, I'd be satisfied with the Blighting Tree > Centaur Raised > Nightmare Court hunted route that's already been outlined in the thread. I don't think we need to explore Mordremoth's corruption/change/etc or anything deeper.

I think there is the potential for Malyck's story to fill in some of the gaps of sylvari origins. For instance, it could resolve once and for all the question of the Pale Tree's independence - if Malyck's tree came from the same cave as the Pale Tree and they're independent, that suggests that whatever freed the Pale Tree happened before Ronan stumbled on the cave. And if Malyck's tree was deliberately planted by whoever cached the seeds in the first place, we might find out who they were and why they did it.

Sure, it probably doesn't tie into the larger dragon story that has now concluded, but investigating some of the mysteries of the Pale Tree's freedom would at least make for an interesting side story. And even after End of Dragons, it's not the only dragon-related plothook remaining.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think there is the potential for Malyck's story to fill in some of the gaps of sylvari origins. For instance, it could resolve once and for all the question of the Pale Tree's independence - if Malyck's tree came from the same cave as the Pale Tree and they're independent, that suggests that whatever freed the Pale Tree happened before Ronan stumbled on the cave. And if Malyck's tree was deliberately planted by whoever cached the seeds in the first place, we might find out who they were and why they did it.

Sure, it probably doesn't tie into the larger dragon story that has now concluded, but investigating some of the mysteries of the Pale Tree's freedom would at least make for an interesting side story. And even after End of Dragons, it's not the only dragon-related plothook remaining.

They could easily do an entire LW season for all of these small loose plot threads

• Malyck and his tree
• The cut centaur plot from IBS
• Whats the dealio with the Wizard's Tower
• Finally dealing with the ghosts of Ascalon
• Dealing with the Inquest once and for all

[Dante.1508]

I'm not very interested in Sylvari but that one Malyck story line always interested me and the future Asuran story line where the commander goes evil and creates steam creatures to rule the world..

Both i always wished would follow on.

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

They could easily do an entire LW season for all of these small loose plot threads

• Malyck and his tree
• The cut centaur plot from IBS
• Whats the dealio with the Wizard's Tower
• Finally dealing with the ghosts of Ascalon
• Dealing with the Inquest once and for all

They could but, IMO, they probably shouldn't unless it's a case of 'no, really, the game is going into maintenance mode afterwards, the next game is approaching release', because that's the sort of thing that would really feel like a Tying Up Loose Ends season.

I'd rather see some new story developing, but where some of this stuff gets picked up along the way because it happens to be extending into zones where that stuff plays a part. Or because it naturally comes from the story that it's paramount to investigate the Wizard's Tower. Or we come across something that explains why the reverse-Foefire ritual only partially succeeded, thereby providing impetus to try again. Stuff like that.

Edited June 5, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

They could but, IMO, they probably shouldn't unless it's a case of 'no, really, the game is going into maintenance mode afterwards, the next game is approaching release', because that's the sort of thing that would really feel like a Tying Up Loose Ends season.

I'd rather see some new story developing, but where some of this stuff gets picked up along the way because it happens to be extending into zones where that stuff plays a part. Or because it naturally comes from the story that it's paramount to investigate the Wizard's Tower. Or we come across something that explains why the reverse-Foefire ritual only partially succeeded, thereby providing impetus to try again. Stuff like that.

At this point I'm not really sure how most of this stuff would come up naturally besides such a tying up loose threads season.

If anything we are probably going to move even further away from those stories with the next expansion/larger story.

[anninke.7469]

On 6/5/2022 at 12:49 AM, Its Spooky.5917 said:

I wasn't aware Laranthir came back. I wish I could have known that sooner since I was hoping he would, although that's disappointing to hear that he got a little sidelined, as I was hoping he would become as prominent as Almorra in the role of General.
Sadly the wiki hasn't caught up to writing his activity post-IBS so I can't read it myself.

Well, I found out here and on the wiki and was disappointed too. But that's on me, because after reading the letter in Bjora I kinda had this foolish hope that Laranthir taking care of things in the Grove might actually mean something. Silly me...

Edited June 8, 2022 by anninke.7469
typo

[draxynnic.3719]

17 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

At this point I'm not really sure how most of this stuff would come up naturally besides such a tying up loose threads season.

If anything we are probably going to move even further away from those stories with the next expansion/larger story.

Depends on where it goes and what turns up in those locations. Some could also be used as instigating incidents - for instance, a push north to deal with centaurs might uncover something that ends up being relevant to the 'main' storyline, or an investigation into a ruin believed to hold secrets of the Foefire might turn out to contain more than was bargained for.

Just seems like it would be more natural than tying up all the loose ends right after EoD. Especially given the likelihood that the next season will kick off in Cantha, probably linked to the problem of finding an alternate power source for jade tech.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

14 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Depends on where it goes and what turns up in those locations. Some could also be used as instigating incidents - for instance, a push north to deal with centaurs might uncover something that ends up being relevant to the 'main' storyline, or an investigation into a ruin believed to hold secrets of the Foefire might turn out to contain more than was bargained for.

Just seems like it would be more natural than tying up all the loose ends right after EoD. Especially given the likelihood that the next season will kick off in Cantha, probably linked to the problem of finding an alternate power source for jade tech.

I wasn't trying to imply they would do it directly after EoD, just that they could do a whole season about these things at some point.

Next season is likely to deal with Purist/Risen stuff, and the deep sea monster. Then probably xpack 4 with some Mists related storyline, then probably a LW season expanding on that, THEN they could do the loose ends tie up.... in like 4-5years.

[draxynnic.3719]

Even if we assume that's all that is left in GW2's lifetime...

You really don't think they can bring in some of those loose ends along the way?

For instance, that 'deep sea monster' thing. What if we want some base of operations while we're out there? A flying fortress could be pretty effective in that respect. Maybe we might cut a deal with Isgarren. Or maybe he does something that necessitates a response, we assault the fortress with airships, take it, and then it's moved out into the Unending Ocean as a base of operations that's relatively safe from threats within the deep.

While a Mists-focused storyline could easily involve finding a solution to the problem of spirits that are bound to endless conflict in Tyria and unable to move on.

Ultimately, I don't think a 'tying up loose ends' season is the right way to go around it. Even if they're absolutely going to end GW2, I think they'd be more likely to try to go out with a bang, and leave any remaining threads for a sequel.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

13 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Even if we assume that's all that is left in GW2's lifetime...

You really don't think they can bring in some of those loose ends along the way?

For instance, that 'deep sea monster' thing. What if we want some base of operations while we're out there? A flying fortress could be pretty effective in that respect. Maybe we might cut a deal with Isgarren. Or maybe he does something that necessitates a response, we assault the fortress with airships, take it, and then it's moved out into the Unending Ocean as a base of operations that's relatively safe from threats within the deep.

While a Mists-focused storyline could easily involve finding a solution to the problem of spirits that are bound to endless conflict in Tyria and unable to move on.

Ultimately, I don't think a 'tying up loose ends' season is the right way to go around it. Even if they're absolutely going to end GW2, I think they'd be more likely to try to go out with a bang, and leave any remaining threads for a sequel.

If we get some base of operations while fighting the Deep Sea Monster they are more likely to use something more directly tied to the area and lore rather then a non-sequitur add in like the Wizard's Tower. Something like we go to the remnants of the Battle Isles and find a whole bunch of Largos, Quaggan, Naga, and Krait, who have been pushed out of their homes by the creature, and have had to form something of a joint community there. Not to mention, the Pact already learned flying =/= the best defense with the whole airship/Mordremoth debacle.

Same thing with the Mists plot. I would presume that such a plot would take place over in the 4th human land over in the far west. Having us be over there pretty much precludes us from doing anything with the Ascalond ghosts problem.

Likewise, if they are going to do a GW3 I would think they would just drop these sorts of smaller plotlines rather then hold onto them. The idea we could have another 100-200+ year time skip, to give the world time to screw up again for us to save, and the humans and Charr, who are already good friends now, wouldn't have gotten a cross-species delegation to end the ghost problem, using someone like Wade Samuelson to do the ritual, makes little sense. Carrying over the Elder Dragon plot made sense because its a large, planet defining thing. The ghost thing, humanity making peace with the Centaurs when we are already right on the edge of it, the Inquest finally falling after a decade of us raiding/blowing up every major center they have across Tyria and Elona. Those should be historical footnotes by the time GW3 rolls around.

[draxynnic.3719]

Something a little bigger, tougher, and more stable than an airship might be useful, while being in the air reduces the threat from water-based enemies (you know, whatever caused the underwater races, up to and including the freaking karka, to flee?). Meanwhile... sure, maybe the Mists-style storyline is mostly set in Some Other Region, but something is discovered in the process that prompts us to come back to Ascalon on realising there's a potential solution to the ghost issue. If you really want a new map tied to this, maybe we could go to Regent Valley, or Surmia, or maybe we need to visit the Ring of Fire to collect Rurik's spirit to lead the Ascalonian ghosts into the Mists. There's a lot of potential for these things to be resolved along the way without it being a big Let's Just Wrap Everything Up season with how artificial that would be (are we really going to see all of Tyria's problems just happen to be solved in the space of a year or so just because the PC has free time to go and deal with everything else personally?). Season 4 didn't stick exclusively to Elona, after all, and Season 3 moved out of the jungle pretty quickly.

I think you may also be forgetting ArenaNet's tendency to drop hints that a problem is all but completely resolved already, and then it later turns out that it's very much still a problem. As one very major example, it was implied a couple of times in Prophecies that the charr military had basically been broken and that the Ascalonians would, at the very least, be able to refortify the Wall and hold everything south of it secure, if not counterattack northwards, and we know how that worked out in the end. Some of the things you're talking about may well be intractable problems. The Inquest? All those bases we're blowing up might be expensive to them, but let's keep in mind that the heart of the Inquest is actually in Rata Sum, and as long as they retain the acceptance of the Arcane Council, they're always going to be able to recoup their lost investments given time. Centaurs? We had a centaur in Lion's Arch saying that the war was hopeless right on release, but the war is obviously still going, the centaur leadership has if anything become more insane over time, and while Caudecus was stirring the pot, what we've heard from ArenaNet indicates that the centaurs can't make peace without mass starvation because the lands they hold aren't sufficiently arable to support their population, and so they need to either seize Krytan land or raid for Krytan crops (they want our land and crops, not our beer!) to survive. Just because they're on the back hoof, doesn't mean they're going to surrender altogether, just like the charr kept fighting from the foundation of Ascalon to its fall. Sometimes, the thing that you think is all but completely resolved turns out to still be a big deal years, decades, or even centuries later. 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think you may also be forgetting ArenaNet's tendency to drop hints that a problem is all but completely resolved already, and then it later turns out that it's very much still a problem. As one very major example, it was implied a couple of times in Prophecies that the charr military had basically been broken and that the Ascalonians would, at the very least, be able to refortify the Wall and hold everything south of it secure, if not counterattack northwards, and we know how that worked out in the end. 

I recall the exact opposite. The Charr's domination over Ascalon was so complete that they didn't even really need to try to hold it because the last defenders didn't stand a chance. This is part of the reason Rurik took and whole bunch of people and left. Ascalon was a demonstrable lost cause, and Adelbern was treated as loon for trying to hold it despite the obvious.

Even with the infighting among the Charr during Eye of the North, the Charr were still so dominate over the Ascalonian humans that no one, outside of a few extremely over-optimistic hopefuls, considered reclaiming Ascalon possible.

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The Inquest? All those bases we're blowing up might be expensive to them, but let's keep in mind that the heart of the Inquest is actually in Rata Sum, and as long as they retain the acceptance of the Arcane Council, they're always going to be able to recoup their lost investments given time.

Yeah, that isn't how economics works. The Asura are a race that has massively declined from its height of originally having 6 Rata Sum sized cities, going down to just one. And the amount of land, and thus resources, they control is relatively small. As they share such of the Maguuma with the Sylvari.

After raiding two Rata Sum sized facilities(Crucible of Eternity, and Rata Primus), as well as countless other facilities of rather impressive size, in just a decade's time,  the idea that they can just keep bankrolling their operations via the Arcane Council is nonsense. The city's budget would have to far exceeded what they would reasonably have access to in order to not only keep the city, and the Asuran civilization running, but to have this massive amount of cash and resources siphoned off for the Inquest's use and it not cause any noticeable effect on the day to day lives of the Asura.

You could just keep hand-waving it to keep them as a Saturday morning cartoon , Dr Claw "I'll get you next time Gadget!" villain. But thats crappy writing, and GW2's writing has never been that bad.

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Centaurs? We had a centaur in Lion's Arch saying that the war was hopeless right on release, but the war is obviously still going, the centaur leadership has if anything become more insane over time, and while Caudecus was stirring the pot, what we've heard from ArenaNet indicates that the centaurs can't make peace without mass starvation because the lands they hold aren't sufficiently arable to support their population, and so they need to either seize Krytan land or raid for Krytan crops (they want our land and crops, not our beer!) to survive. Just because they're on the back hoof, doesn't mean they're going to surrender altogether, just like the charr kept fighting from the foundation of Ascalon to its fall. Sometimes, the thing that you think is all but completely resolved turns out to still be a big deal years, decades, or even centuries later. 

Except none of this is true at all. And we've, in fact, seen the opposite.

Most Centaurs didn't want war with the humans in the first place,  with the Harathi and Tamini where basically being forced into it out of fear of Ulgoth the Mighty's power. Ulgoth got killed back in release after the Seraph pushed the centaurs back from Shaemoor, all the way back into their lands in the northeastern part of Harathi Highlands. The "war" was effectively over at release, which is why its a non-issue in post release content.

The war itself was started because of Ulgoth's desire to get revenge on humanity, and to a lesser extent the Norn, for nearly wiping out his tribe back in the GW1 days, and reclaim Kryta which they believed was rightfully their. Not because of resource issues.

The exposure of Caudecus, and his hand in starting the war, would've only deescalated the situation even more as it would have revealed to everyone that Humanity was getting played just as much as the Centaurs were, and that neither side was really as guilty as the other believed.

We look at Icebrood Saga and we can see Anet originally planned to do a Centaur arc in there, and after the back half of IBS got canned, they were so close to just throwing the Centaurs in as an allied faction during Champions, and had waving the issue away, that they had made an NPC with a reward table set up and ready to go.

The Centaurs have had nearly a decade since the main antagonizing factor(Ulgoth) was killed to simmer down, which they very obviously had. They haven't gotten more insane, they've gotten demonstrably less so because most of them thought the whole idea was dumb in the first place. And even Anet is conscious of this fact, to the point that nearly twice in IBS was about to just wrap the whole thing up.... because there's not really anything left to do there.

Hell, they can still do the original story they had planned, just have it be the remnants of the Destroyers and Icebrood/Frost Legion still around after the dragon's deaths that instead of it being during the dragon's invasion.

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

(are we really going to see all of Tyria's problems just happen to be solved in the space of a year or so just because the PC has free time to go and deal with everything else personally?).

Well no given that we've been solving issues for nearly a decade at this point during our larger fight against the dragons.

This is just a total, seemingly intentional, misrepresentation/straw man of whats actually being said. Solving these 4 problems(Malyck, Ghosts, Centaurs, and Inquest) in the span of 1.5 years doesn't change that it took us a decade to the litany of other problems Tyria(the world) has faces ranging from the Elder Dragons themselves, to Joko, Scarlet, the White Mantle, the Svanir, the Nightmare Court, the Centaur War proper, Cantha's isolationism, etc. etc.

And things like the Centaurs and Ghosts are pretty much done as is, we just need that final step to wrap it up. Centaurs are already right on the tipping point of peace, we just need "X FACTOR" to push them right over the edge, and we know how to get rid of the Ghosts, we just need to get Wade Samuelsson the f**** sword to do the ritual.

They could do hof them in an IBS style Bjora/Drizzlewood two parter and not even have rushed it.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Narcemus.1348]

I think the biggest struggle with a wrap up season would be whether this sort of wrap up story would look and feel like a complete legitimate story or if it would feel scattershot like LWS1 or LWS3. These seasons, while great at times, felt a little schizophrenic with the way they went all over the place doing all sorts of things. I would prefer things feel organic rather than they feel like "hurry up and wrap up the game guys!"

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I recall the exact opposite. The Charr's domination over Ascalon was so complete that they didn't even really need to try to hold it because the last defenders didn't stand a chance. This is part of the reason Rurik took and whole bunch of people and left. Ascalon was a demonstrable lost cause, and Adelbern was treated as loon for trying to hold it despite the obvious.

Even with the infighting among the Charr during Eye of the North, the Charr were still so dominate over the Ascalonian humans that no one, outside of a few extremely over-optimistic hopefuls, considered reclaiming Ascalon possible.

When Rurik got out, sure, although even then it was presented as a "we'll rest and recover and gather allies then come back when we've regained our strength" rather than a permanent abandonment, and part of that was a "you can't banish me, I'M LEAVING AND I'M TAKING WHOEVER WILL COME WITH ME!" on Rurik's part when Adelbern refused to ask for help. When we came back and wiped out the second offensive despite the charr being backed by their gods, including those gods being taken out... then, it was presented as being more optimistic. Possibly in part because it was Adelbern's point of view, but if you're going to talk about economics... at this point, the charr had had four major invasion waves wiped out, with with the last augmented by the beings that they believed to be gods being wiped out alongside them. That should be a pretty big hit to their manpower and morale for at least a generation. But ArenaNet apparently decided they could replenish those losses within a decade.

Quote

Yeah, that isn't how economics works. The Asura are a race that has massively declined from its height of originally having 6 Rata Sum sized cities, going down to just one. And the amount of land, and thus resources, they control is relatively small. As they share such of the Maguuma with the Sylvari.

After raiding two Rata Sum sized facilities(Crucible of Eternity, and Rata Primus), as well as countless other facilities of rather impressive size, in just a decade's time,  the idea that they can just keep bankrolling their operations via the Arcane Council is nonsense. The city's budget would have to far exceeded what they would reasonably have access to in order to not only keep the city, and the Asuran civilization running, but to have this massive amount of cash and resources siphoned off for the Inquest's use and it not cause any noticeable effect on the day to day lives of the Asura.

You could just keep hand-waving it to keep them as a Saturday morning cartoon , Dr Claw "I'll get you next time Gadget!" villain. But thats crappy writing, and GW2's writing has never been that bad.

And yet they keep coming up. One could imagine they do have a fairly significant means of garnering resources. Some of it is probably coming out of Rata Sum. Some of it is likely trading with other unscrupulous factions. Given how many golems they always seem to have, they probably have some automated mining operations somewhere. 

I'd agree that it does seem odd that they always seem to have the resources for massive projects, but the Pact is also able to make massive fortifications, fleets of airships, and other war machines despite being primarily a collection of NGOs. ArenaNet has given no indication that the Inquest is on its last legs just because we've shut down a few of their operations.

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Except none of this is true at all. And we've, in fact, seen the opposite.

Most Centaurs didn't want war with the humans in the first place,  with the Harathi and Tamini where basically being forced into it out of fear of Ulgoth the Mighty's power. Ulgoth got killed back in release after the Seraph pushed the centaurs back from Shaemoor, all the way back into their lands in the northeastern part of Harathi Highlands. The "war" was effectively over at release, which is why its a non-issue in post release content.

The war itself was started because of Ulgoth's desire to get revenge on humanity, and to a lesser extent the Norn, for nearly wiping out his tribe back in the GW1 days, and reclaim Kryta which they believed was rightfully their. Not because of resource issues. {snip}

Based on what ArenaNet has said, this is pretty much almost completely wrong.

Centaur-human conflict has been happening pretty much since the foundation of Kryta. It was intensified between GW1 and GW2, since the drying of the Maguuma and the spread of Jormag's control over the Shiverpeaks forced the centaur of those regions to all concentrate in the (apparently fairly low-quality) land just north of Kryta. From which they've been raiding and trying to seize territory since.

Caudecus' actions, both in antagonising the Ulgoth to be even more aggressive and in sabotaging Kryta's defences, are how it got as bad as it did during the game. We pushed the centaurs back in Harathi Hinterlands and defeated the Ulgoth... but there was emphatically no centaur surrender then, and interviews with ArenaNet at the time confirmed that while that (and Caudecus' "protective custody") allowed Kryta to regain the upper hand, the centaurs absolutely didn't surrender and weren't going to. As far as they're concerned, their backs are against the wall, their survival is on the line, and the majority of them are too proud to surrender. And when the White Mantle's resurgence gave them an opening, they took it.

I think one thing you're failing to recognise here is that ArenaNet in GW2 has pretty much only ever tied up one of these subplots when it was part of setting something up for the main plot. We had the White Mantle and Mursaat tied up in S3... because that was part of the setup for Balthazar and Path of Fire. The Flame Legion were tied up at the start of Icebrood Saga... because resolving that gave Bangar the opportunity to expand his ambition and kick off the events of IBS. I don't think they've ever wrapped something up for the sake of wrapping it up - closest is when they let us think an enemy faction has been defeated after some big battle, and then they pop up again anyway.

The centaurs have been an on-again-off-again enemy for Kryta since Kryta was founded, and I see no indication that's likely to change in the foreseeable future. If the game ended without them being referenced again, then in Guild Wars 3 it'll probably turn out that they'd been pushed back far enough that they stopped being more than a nuisance for most of the period in between the games, and then something (maybe they get a big powerup like the charr did through the Titans, or maybe it's just because something else weakened Kryta enough to give them an opening) allowed them to become a real player, or at least a secondary racial enemy, again.

If it does get resolved in GW2's timeframe, I'm fairly confident it'll be because it ties into the major story in some fashion. Maybe the Big Bad of a future storyline appears in what's left of their remaining territory, making swallowing their pride and making a deal with Kryta their less-bad alternative to extinction. Maybe we'll have a season starting with making a big push north from Kryta, which runs into something that kicks off the unifying thread of the season. But I don't think they're going to just resolve the centaurs for the sake of resolving the centaurs.

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This is just a total, seemingly intentional, misrepresentation/straw man of whats actually being said. Solving these 4 problems(Malyck, Ghosts, Centaurs, and Inquest) in the span of 1.5 years doesn't change that it took us a decade to the litany of other problems Tyria(the world) has faces ranging from the Elder Dragons themselves, to Joko, Scarlet, the White Mantle, the Svanir, the Nightmare Court, the Centaur War proper, Cantha's isolationism, etc. etc.

And things like the Centaurs and Ghosts are pretty much done as is, we just need that final step to wrap it up. Centaurs are already right on the tipping point of peace, we just need "X FACTOR" to push them right over the edge, and we know how to get rid of the Ghosts, we just need to get Wade Samuelsson the f**** sword to do the ritual.

They could do hof them in an IBS style Bjora/Drizzlewood two parter and not even have rushed it.

Again, I think you need to consider what ArenaNet has done historically.

I think we both agree that a "wrapup" arc like you propose isn't going to happen while the game is still in active development. ArenaNet isn't going to wrap something up that they might be able to use as a trigger for something related to the main story later. 

So let's consider the "final major storyline for the game" scenario:

We've had three instances now when ArenaNet has had a storyline that they expected to be the final major narrative component of the game.

None of them gave any impression of tying up loose ends.

Eye of the North, as discussed before, actually felt more like it unravelled ends that people thought had been tied off previously. One might think that the entire White Mantle leadership being decapitated (there's a quest in Prophecies that is explicitly "kill their remaining leaders) and their gods wiped out would resolve the Kryta situation, but in EOTN we find out that it's still embroiled in civil war, the Mantle have found new leaders, and at least one mursaat survived. Ascalon's situation became "the charr are going to win whatever you do". The Stone Summit, which we might have thought had been taken down after their "final fortress" in Sorrow's Furnace fell, turned out to have simply retreated to the Far Shiverpeaks and were still very much a going concern (and a remnant of them would survive until IBS).

Then we had Guild Wars Beyond. Pretty much everything there was, essentially, setting up for Guild Wars 2. Yes, we finally ended the Krytan civil war... but that ended with the White Mantle retreating into the jungle where they could set up a parallel state in exile from which they could infiltrate back into Kryta. We finally finished off the remnants of the Affliction (something that we might otherwise have assumed would just happen offscreen over time), but the whole point of the Canthan Guild Wars Beyond was to set up the Ministry of Purity (which, I guess, would then get partially resolved offscreen because they decided to take the story in a different direction, but the MoP still leaves scars across Cantha). The Elonian part of Beyond was going to be part of the leadup to Joko's eventual takeover of Elona... with the Joko plot eventually being resolved as, surprise, a key part of the Kralkatorrik arc.

The third case was Season 4, which was written with the possibility in mind that it would be the last story they told in GW2 before moving to other projects (a decision that they later decided against). Was that a bunch of wrap-up sideplots? Was it even setup for a sequel? No, the plan at the point was to make sure that if Guild Wars 2's story ended there, it ended with a satisfying bang.

So no, I don't think we're going to see a wrapup arc. ArenaNet's habit is to leave side-threads hanging until they get an idea where tying off that thread becomes the launching point for something else. 

None of those four problems you cite necessarily have to be solved in the lifetime of Tyrian characters. Maybe Malyck's Tree is just in a region we'll never visit in GW2, but at some point a few decades later Tyria will find out that there are other Trees that weren't under Mordremoth's control. Or maybe, unsatisfying as it is, his Tree was one of the Blighting Trees and he fell under Mordremoth's control as soon as he awoke, and we'll never know because he died on some random Pact soldier's blade. Wade might have royal blood, but he might not actually be the next in line, and we might not find out who that is, leaving the ghosts to remain for generations to come (and the legend might turn out to be just wrong). The centaurs, as discussed above, might remain a threat to Kryta that waxes and wanes indefinitely. And as for the Inquest... maybe they've expended most of their resources and they'll need to spend a few years or decades rebuilding, or maybe they've got some of those automated mining facilities somewhere, but either way, they're not going to get wiped out unless the Arcane Council decides to make them persona non grata, since they'll always have their little part of Rata Sum to fall back on. Maybe you're right and they won't have the resources to make another big base any time in GW2's future, but they might still remain as a kitten in asura society that will linger into a sequel. Or maybe sometime in a future storyline they'll find another sponsor, or a significant source of salvage, or it'll turn out that they do have that big automated mine somewhere, and they'll be back to making another big research complex somewhere that they thought was safe from prying eyes.

 

But if you get nothing else from this, here's the TLDR: ArenaNet has pretty much never wrapped up a sideplot just for the sake of wrapping it up. When they do, it's usually so it can serve as a launchpad for something else. A "tying up loose ends" season just isn't something that fits with their past practice.

Edited June 8, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The centaurs have been an on-again-off-again enemy for Kryta since Kryta was founded, and I see no indication that's likely to change in the foreseeable future.

Sure, lets ignore the existence of Icebrood Saga where we know that was going to change because of the invasion of Primordus and Jormag's minions.

I'm also not sure where you keep getting this idea they are invading Kryta for resources. I don't recall it ever being mentioned in-game, and see nothing on the wiki about it. Everything actually stated about the reasons for the war is Ulgoth wanted revenge, thats it.

Not to mention, we've been to the Woodland Cascades in the southern part of Drizzlewood, and can see that its perfectible farmable. Both the Norn and human settlements in the region had observable farms. And lets not ignore the fact Centaurs have always been depicted as a quasi-nomadic tribalistic species thats never had large scale agriculture in the first place because they aren't developed enough for it. So that entire idea directly contradicts what we see in-game in regards to both Centaurs, and the lands they live on.

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Maybe the Big Bad of a future storyline appears in what's left of their remaining territory, making swallowing their pride and making a deal with Kryta their less-bad alternative to extinction.

You mean literally the plot of Icebrood Saga where Primordus' invasion into their lands was so great they were being forced out in mass, as referenced by dialogue from NPCs in the eye of the North......

Says he can't see the centaur's relation with Kryta changing any time soon, then directly references the narrative hook created in IBS to make such a change.... HMMMMMM. These comments don't add up here.

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

But if you get nothing else from this, here's the TLDR: ArenaNet has pretty much never wrapped up a sideplot just for the sake of wrapping it up. When they do, it's usually so it can serve as a launchpad for something else. A "tying up loose ends" season just isn't something that fits with their past practice.

Sure, but in the case of  things like Malyck, and the Centaurs, they WERE going to be dealt with as part of the larger meta narrative, but got cut due to time, budget, or scoping, constraints.

At some point you have to accept the narrative has moved beyond the stage where it makes sense to do these things, and trying to fit them in only takes time away from the things that should be dealt with there. Trying to shove in the Wizard's Tower into the Deep Sea Monster story arc would take away a release from the Krait, Largos, and Quaggan, and leaving their narrative unfinished/rushed in the process. Your "solution" is to move the problem from one of the previously listed thing, onto something else, and saying that "fixes" it. No, it doesn't.

You're completely ignore the context behind why Anet has been able to do what they did previously, and why these things are different, to create this false similarity between them. You can't make an honest argument when you ignore context. As Gabriel Lorca said in Star Trek Discovery "Universal law is for lackeys, context if for kings".

Edited June 8, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509