You can turn DE meta into a loot train now

[Erise.5614]

18 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

True. But what is wrong with some content that is not aimed at an inexperienced players?

I like we have a few big events that are aimed towards more experienced and organised players. And no 10 man instances are not the same as 60 man big events. Maybe having more such events would revitalise guilds in this game.

Maybe. But. If that's the goal, it should be separated from the rest of the open world in some way. A unique method of access. A unique icon or something to clearly set it apart. So everyone who enters or at least after they played it once or twice they know exactly this is the experience they have to expect.

If it's not supposed to cater to everyone, then it should be clear what to expect. Easy to opt in, easy to opt out. More like raids.

[Sobx.1758]

12 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

So, you are saying because the 1% of the 1% had so much dps that they were able to beat it even when most raid groups were still failing before the nerfs.. the fights fine? 

No, pretty sure what he said there is that the claim about "Highly organized raid groups were still mostly failing" was false and he said that specifically because it is false.

[yoni.7015]

22 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Maybe. But. If that's the goal, it should be separated from the rest of the open world in some way. A unique method of access. A unique icon or something to clearly set it apart. So everyone who enters or at least after they played it once or twice they know exactly this is the experience they have to expect.

If it's not supposed to cater to everyone, then it should be clear what to expect. Easy to opt in, easy to opt out. More like raids.

All that is not necessary. It is part of Open World content and should stay like this. No warning sign, no special method of access. 
everyone who did it once or twice knows what to expect.
I wouldn’t even say that it doesn’t cater to everyone, it does, all that is needed is a little bit of organization. And many players have done just that, they have organized themselves in groups and guilds. everyone can do that. Isn’t this part of MMO games? 

Edited June 9, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Erise.5614]

41 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So if that's the opinion you hold then... you probably should be in favor of some official dps meter that would allow for putting your performance in comparison to other people attending the same content/event? Or maybe -with the recent change to add the entrance to the special forces training area directly from LA, as well as not needing to make a 1player squad- anet should include the mention of the existance of dps golem during the process of leveling up (or upon entering LA for the first time)?

DPS meter is more a question of who the game wants to cater to. If ANet wants everyone to end up with high performance then yes. It would be a good addition. Group DPS meters do have a problem with toxicity but at the very least personal ones would be important. It clarifies that performance is the goal everyone has to strive towards and makes it drastically easier to make that progress.

However, there's a significant audience who do not enjoy the game for that reason. And if they are a relevant market then ANet can not implement a DPS meter into the game without antagonizing that audience.

The special forces training area is a good change. It's a bit mind numbing to experiment there but making it more accessible for the players who might want to use it was an excellent change. 

Forcing awareness is more difficult again. Same problem as DPS meter. But both the fractal golems and the training area could be more prominently featured around their associated content (e.g. first visit to aerodrome). 

41 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

 Anything you pick in gw2 technically (so just like in those other games) makes you stronger, but those builds will specialize in different things and have different capabilities and performance.

Yes. And this freedom leads, in reality, to most players not optimizing well enough.

The difference is that in most RPGs you can not fail at theory crafting. You can be more or less efficient. But you can not fail. 

In GW2 it's easy to fail at setting up a build for your character. In which case you are not just a bit less efficient but genuinely inefficient. 

41 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If someone intentionally picks plenty of defensive options, it's hard to try and claim that they somehow don't know they can't have more damage.

But it's not as obvious to understand that the game allows you to be slow enough to fail by default. 

41 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

(also did someone actually checked and shared the numbers or you've just made some up to make a point? Making them up to make a point is still understandable, but it would help to clear out how accurate what you're talking about really is)

Games like Dark Souls can be beat with lower stats than you are expected to start out with.

God Of War, Assassin's Creed are balanced so you can consistently beat enemies a few levels above you. And make it basically impossible to damage enemies that are too far above you. Making sure you do not even attempt fights you may not be ready for. 

Even in FF14, low DPS by a player who doesn't really know what they are doing is 4-5k. Good DPS is 15k (benchmarked with all team buffs)

GW2, inexperienced, unoptimized is about 4k. Good DPS is 25k-30k (assuming team buffs). 

41 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

...what? No, it really isn't, actually fairly far from it.

So if you were to take the build of someone who deals 3k DPS average. Equip an entire squad with exactly that build, no changes to utility skills, traits or equipment. You could beat Soo Won?
I'd love to see that! 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Erise.5614]

 

31 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

I wouldn’t even say that it doesn’t cater to everyone, it does, all that is needed is a little bit of organization. And many players have done just that, they have organized themselves in groups and guilds. everyone can do that. Isn’t this part of MMO games? 

Organization works exclusively because of who organizes. Of who participates. Some inexperienced players can join and succeed right now only because all runs can be hosted by dedicated groups with enough high performance players.

Rewind to the activity 7 weeks ago and the win rate would drop once again like a rock. 

It caters to everyone only so long as "everyone" is mostly extremely experienced players.

Hence the ridiculous average achievement scores and mastery levels. 25k AS and above 400 mastery average is ridiculous for open world. And, as one would expect, the average DPS is related to those numbers. 

31 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

All that is not necessary. It is part of Open World content and should stay like this. No warning sign, no special method of access. 
everyone who did it once or twice knows what to expect.

Soo Won can not be improved. True. It's too rigid in how it exists within the game and the negative aspects it causes have mostly played out already. So, sure. Anyone who enjoys it can keep doing that.

But what about the next time ANet implements such an event? It's just gonna be the same thing all over again or what? That is not good for the game nor is it good for its community. If one does not enjoy raid wing 1, it's easy to understand that raid wing 7 probably isn't gonna be fun either. This is lacking for OW events that require above average player performance. 

If this is to be a regular thing aimed at a limited target audience, it should be easy to distinguish as such without participating in everything, every time first.

If ANet entirely abandons that approach to open world metas then sure. That's fine too. Unfortunate for the people who enjoy it but it wouldn't cause more of the issues I'm concerned about either. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Raizel.8175]

2 hours ago, Erise.5614 said:

It's not just good to optimize DPS output. It's mandatory.

The best open world builds provide a decent balance between DPS and Survivability - especially because decent DPS is also vital for Survivability. In fact, Celestial gear has become King of Open World after Celestial was buffed some time ago. Those Open World Celestial Builds still do 10k + DPS  - which is necessary to get stuff like Champions or even Legendaries killed. Those builds would easily deal the necessary DPS for Soo Won so no - just nope! -, optimizing DPS is far from being necessary for any Open World Content - including DE.

[yoni.7015]

41 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

 

Organization works exclusively because of who organizes. Of who participates. Some inexperienced players can join and succeed right now only because all runs can be hosted by dedicated groups with enough high performance players.

Rewind to the activity 7 weeks ago and the win rate would drop once again like a rock. 

It caters to everyone only so long as "everyone" is mostly extremely experienced players.

Hence the ridiculous average achievement scores and mastery levels. 25k AS and above 400 mastery average is ridiculous for open world. And, as one would expect, the average DPS is related to those numbers. 

Soo Won can not be improved. True. It's too rigid in how it exists within the game and the negative aspects it causes have mostly played out already. So, sure. Anyone who enjoys it can keep doing that.

But what about the next time ANet implements such an event? It's just gonna be the same thing all over again or what? That is not good for the game nor is it good for its community. If one does not enjoy raid wing 1, it's easy to understand that raid wing 7 probably isn't gonna be fun either. This is lacking for OW events that require above average player performance. 

If this is to be a regular thing aimed at a limited target audience, it should be easy to distinguish as such without participating in everything, every time first.

If ANet entirely abandons that approach to open world metas then sure. That's fine too. Unfortunate for the people who enjoy it but it wouldn't cause more of the issues I'm concerned about either. 

25k AP and over 400 mastery points are not that much or that extreme for a game that is almost ten years old. I am by no means an achievement Hunter and I have around 34k AP. Achievement points doesn’t say that much. 
 

We don’t know what will happen in the future or how the next meta events will be like. Are they gonna be a little bit more challenging like DE or are they gonna be like all the other meta events where you just have to auto attack while watching Netflix. We don’t know that. 

I personally wouldn’t mind that some open world content is more challenging than the rest. Obviously some open world players like more challenging open world content, others don’t. So there should be events for both groups. In EoD there are 4 meta events, 3 of them are very easy and 1 is a bit more challenging. I think this is a good ratio.
 

Edited June 9, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Dark Red Killian.3946]

It’s not terrible. The changes that were made seem to help, but most of all commanders know what they are doing by now. I found an lfg group recently, got in, and we were successful 5 min left. This seems to be a pattern at least for me if you get into an lfg group lately.

[DaFishBob.6518]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Not only that, but generally any trait you pick in gw2 also "makes you stronger", it just does it in different ways. Be it dps, utility or pure defense, you are getting stronger. When playing games like Witcher 3 the choices you make are also having different performance and synergies. Even(?) there some builds will be coherent, while the others will be the equivalent of just randomly picking stuff.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Being

-20% pet stats

This used to be fine as a random pick, now it's just a self inflicted nerf if nothing it provides is used. Maybe someday in the future it'll be fine again if re-balanced, or maybe more traits will join it.

Follow up question: any traits in other games that will kitten you if you don't actively make use of it like this one?

Edited June 9, 2022 by DaFishBob.6518
How do you even get up in the morning if you're already confused over the fact a trait can give -20% pet stats is not a good thing if you don't make active use of what it provides?

[Erise.5614]

3 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

The best open world builds provide a decent balance between DPS and Survivability - especially because decent DPS is also vital for Survivability. In fact, Celestial gear has become King of Open World after Celestial was buffed some time ago. Those Open World Celestial Builds still do 10k + DPS  - which is necessary to get stuff like Champions or even Legendaries killed. Those builds would easily deal the necessary DPS for Soo Won so no - just nope! -, optimizing DPS is far from being necessary for any Open World Content - including DE.

I feel like I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say. 

The best open world builds provide DPS because decent DPS is vital for success. These best open world build still do 10k+ DPS.

So because of that one can clearly see that these optimized OW builds can easily clear the necessary DPS. And therefore optimizing builds is unnecessary!?

But these are optimized builds. For DPS. It's not maximized. There is room for even more DPS. But it's still optimized for DPS. 

[Raizel.8175]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

But these are optimized builds. For DPS. It's not maximized. There is room for even more DPS. But it's still optimized for DPS. 

No. It's optimized for balance which enables the most reasonable degree of survivability for solo open world gameplay.

[Erise.5614]

4 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

25k AP and over 400 mastery points are not that much or that extreme for a game that is almost ten years old. 

I mean. This statement is very informative about you and the communities / environments you usually play with.

But those numbers are not normal. Achievements are more than twice as high as in AB. Mastery is a bit closer more around 180%.

 

8 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

We don’t know what will happen in the future or how the next meta events will be like. Are they gonna be a little bit more challenging like DE or are they gonna be like all the other meta events where you just have to auto attack while watching Netflix. We don’t know that. 

I personally wouldn’t mind that some open world content is more challenging than the rest. In EoD there are 4 meta events, 3 of them are very easy and 1 is a bit more challenging. 

Am I understanding this right. You want more content exactly like this, with absolutely no separation to the rest of OW? Nothing to be changed at all? Just different spectacle and some new mechanics? 

So you want next time to play out exactly like this time? With all the worst experiences that were made included? Serious frustration and the majority of the playerbase entirely avoiding the event just two months after release?

What kind of wish is that?

[Erise.5614]

14 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

There is room for even more DPS. But it's still optimized for DPS. 

 

12 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

No. It's optimized for balance which enables the most reasonable degree of survivability for solo open world gameplay.

23 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

decent DPS is also vital for Survivabilit

I'm sorry. But which is it?

Does the build include DPS? Is it optimized to deal DPS beyond what poor builds deal?

All I'm saying is, it does focus on dealing a significant amount of DPS. More than average players are capable of in OW. It is optimized to do that. Which requires understanding of the general combat system, of the stats and the traits. Players who run these builds have 0 issue setting up builds capable of raiding either. They are not the ones who struggle performing highly. 

I'm criticizing this statement

4 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

The main issue with GW2 is simply that a lot of people simply don't want to use their brain - in spite of the game harassing you both with the training and the build tab in the hero panel on several occasions.

You generalize and blame players who are often unaware more so than consciously lazy and malicious. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Erise.5614

[yoni.7015]

35 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

I mean. This statement is very informative about you and the communities / environments you usually play with.

But those numbers are not normal. Achievements are more than twice as high as in AB. Mastery is a bit closer more around 180%.

 

Am I understanding this right. You want more content exactly like this, with absolutely no separation to the rest of OW? Nothing to be changed at all? Just different spectacle and some new mechanics? 

So you want next time to play out exactly like this time? With all the worst experiences that were made included? Serious frustration and the majority of the playerbase entirely avoiding the event just two months after release?

What kind of wish is that?

Serious frustration because you failed an event in a video game? Oh come on. Worst experiences? You are a bit overly dramatic now.  All the complaining and crying in the forum is not a reflection of the reality in the game. 
But yes, I want more challenging content like DE, without separation or other nonsense you are proposing. 
Not every event has to be played by everyone and not every event has to be played by the majority. There are some meta events in the game I don’t like and I don’t play. But you won’t see me complaining about these events for three months. 
Like I wrote before, I think it’s good to have meta events for players that don’t want a challenge, that don’t want to communicate and don’t want to cooperate  and events for players that want to do all that. There is room in open world for both groups. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Sobx.1758]

23 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

DPS meter is more a question of who the game wants to cater to. If ANet wants everyone to end up with high performance then yes. It would be a good addition. Group DPS meters do have a problem with toxicity but at the very least personal ones would be important. It clarifies that performance is the goal everyone has to strive towards and makes it drastically easier to make that progress.

However, there's a significant audience who do not enjoy the game for that reason. And if they are a relevant market then ANet can not implement a DPS meter into the game without antagonizing that audience.

The special forces training area is a good change. It's a bit mind numbing to experiment there but making it more accessible for the players who might want to use it was an excellent change. 

Forcing awareness is more difficult again. Same problem as DPS meter. But both the fractal golems and the training area could be more prominently featured around their associated content (e.g. first visit to aerodrome). 

It's not a question of "who the game wants to cater to". You said it's hard to understand how much you need or how good you are in relation to others. As far as I understand, we were not somehow "questioning who it wants to cater to", this is not what this comment chain was about at all. It was about builds, players understanding the game and improving both playstyle and builds to the point where "it's enough". The mention of dps is not an attempt to change the target of this discussion, it's an attempt to find a better solution for the potential problems you've mentioned above. Which is "how do I know this is enough?". Well... for one, that's how. By having clear comparison to others.

23 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Yes. And this freedom leads, in reality, to most players not optimizing well enough.

As repeated many times now, there's no need for "optimizing" since some strict meta builds is not what this game is balanced around, nor is this event in particular.

23 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

The difference is that in most RPGs you can not fail at theory crafting. You can be more or less efficient. But you can not fail. 

In GW2 it's easy to fail at setting up a build for your character. In which case you are not just a bit less efficient but genuinely inefficient. 

If you don't read what you pick or straight up try going for as much defensive options with as little dmg as you can, then maybe. But not if you actually read what you pick and subsequently understand that picking more damage is your option to pick. So what are you complaiing about? About all of the options not being the same? That would be pretty stupid. Or maybe that -again- you need to somehow pick "meta builds to succeed"? That's just false.

23 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

But it's not as obvious to understand that the game allows you to be slow enough to fail by default. 

There are literal timers after which you fail events. It's not something that's strongly limited or hard to find throughout the game. So yes, rather soon after starting the game, it becomes straight up obvious. That's... basically what timers do and mean in games, so not sure why you'd try to claim otherwise.

23 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Games like Dark Souls can be beat with lower stats than you are expected to start out with.

In no way would that be reasonable for mmorpgs nor is this in any way easier than actually making a coherent (not meta or even near being meta) build, so I don't know what is this strawman supposed to be?

23 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

God Of War, Assassin's Creed are balanced so you can consistently beat enemies a few levels above you. And make it basically impossible to damage enemies that are too far above you. Making sure you do not even attempt fights you may not be ready for. 

And this is relevant to what exactly? Seriously, what is this responding to and why? Because it surely isn't an answer to the % values, in the end apparently made up by you?

23 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Even in FF14, low DPS by a player who doesn't really know what they are doing is 4-5k. Good DPS is 15k (benchmarked with all team buffs)

Ok, again, what is this supposed to show or respond to?

23 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

GW2, inexperienced, unoptimized is about 4k. Good DPS is 25k-30k (assuming team buffs). 

Good dps is 25-30k, but -again- that dps is not really needed. So you're now hyperfocusing on intentionally comparing "inexperienced" (so new) players to meta builds. Weirdly enough being inexperienced doesn't get mentioned in your examples above, notably including dark souls 😄

And what's the solution to being unexperienced? Continue playing and gaining experience to improve. Having limited events or even zones made to incentivize learning the game and subsequently improving is entirely valid thing to do and is by far not a new or unreasonable thing in rpgs and mmorpgs (or any other game, actually).

23 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

So if you were to take the build of someone who deals 3k DPS average. Equip an entire squad with exactly that build, no changes to utility skills, traits or equipment. You could beat Soo Won?
I'd love to see that! 

Ah, so I guess now there are only two options: optimizing your dps OR having a squad full of the same copies of a 3k dps build. Talk about making a strawman. There's a huge number of varied builds between these two options that would still be FAR from "optimizing for dps", while also being enough for succesfully completing content. Even moreso when joining organized groups (using regular open lfg, which is nothing out of ordinary in mmorpgs) with subgrouped boon-builds.

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

The main issue with GW2 is simply that a lot of people simply don't want to use their brain - in spite of the game harassing you both with the training and the build tab in the hero panel on several occasions.

Lots of people bought game because of this because it was advertised like this. Why do you want people to change after 10 years of gaming now?

Instant content whoever likes challenge. Leave OW for people who just wants to kill time and have little fun while doing so.

[Sobx.1758]

41 minutes ago, DaFishBob.6518 said:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Being

-20% pet stats

This used to be fine as a random pick, now it's just a self inflicted nerf if nothing it provides is used. Maybe someday in the future it'll be fine again if re-balanced, or maybe more traits will join it.

Follow up question: any traits in other games that will kitten you if you don't actively make use of it like this one?

There are trade offs, you're getting something taken away from you because you're gaining something else. "Random pick" is the point here. It shouldn't be random, you should read and make a decision. If you see -20% pet stats, you shouldn't be surprised that it deals less dmg, right? And that's the case because you're trading it off to specialize in a different direction.

I mean... just re-read what you've quoted and maybe you'll understand that "making you stronger" means that any pick you make does give you something (to quote it directly from the post you've responded to: "Not only that, but generally any trait you pick in gw2 also "makes you stronger", it just does it in different ways. Be it dps, utility or pure defense, you are getting stronger."). If you're given a choice to pick a build, start randomly clicking on traits and then complain that the random "pick" doesn't do what you wanted it to do then that just doesn't seem like a reasonable complaint to me. If you want the build to do what you want it to do (in this case: apparently you wanted to increse your offensive power?), then read and pick accordingly.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[kharmin.7683]

2 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

True. But what is wrong with some content that is not aimed at an inexperienced players?

I like we have a few big events that are aimed towards more experienced and organised players. And no 10 man instances are not the same as 60 man big events. Maybe having more such events would revitalise guilds in this game.

 Don't we already have guild events?  Maybe Anet could build upon what already exists before incorporating something new?

[mindcircus.1506]

30 minutes ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

Lots of people bought game because of this because it was advertised like this.

I'd like to see an example of this advertisement

Edited June 9, 2022 by mindcircus.1506

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

6 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

I'd like to see an example of this advertisement

Search it. google is your friend.

[yoni.7015]

Just now, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

Search it. google is your friend.

It was advertised that you don’t have to use your brain? 

[mindcircus.1506]

3 minutes ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

Search it. google is your friend.

One cannot get a google result for that which does not exist.

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

2 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

It was advertised that you don’t have to use your brain? 

yeah exactly word by word, did you search it?

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

Search it. google is your friend.

While it's convenient to just say "google it!", there's no way to find a lie you made up, sorry.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 6/7/2022 at 6:32 PM, Dante.1508 said:

I'm a casual and i press all my hotbar keys maybe not like a piano player more like smash them all asap and watch cool downs.. but i do not spam 11111...

That said the dodging, CC and dots is usually what ends me.. in most metas.

Well as long as you don't spam CCs when they're not needed we're good. And everyone dies every now and then.

It also helps if you supply boons and whatnot to neighbors. It's not all about damage. Even the most wet noodle of people will still do damage when given a bunch of might, fury, etc. Something like pack runes can work pretty good because it doesn't require any interaction.

Edited June 9, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480