Can we change how toughness tanking works regarding temporary buffs?

[Zunki.3916]

Please do not turn this into a "get good" flamefest.

One of the key problems with raiding seems to be accessibility. What sometimes leads to confusion in pugs is toughness tanking and temporary buffs, making the boss switch targets without ppl understanding why.

Therefore I would love to see toughness tanking change so it only takes permanent toughness into account:

• Armor
• Weapons
• Runes

The following stuff would no longer count for toughness tanking:

• conversions to toughness
• consumables (food....)
• traits and trait buffs
• skills and their buffs

This way it's REALLY easy to gear and determine who will have aggro. Usually the tank would only need one Item with toughness and be good.

That needed constant already exists in the game, as it would be the same value that is taken into account for conversion reasons.

A side effect would be, that some skills and builds can now be casually used in raids, that so far could not be used due to the skills giving toughness bonuses.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Zunki.3916

[HowlKamui.5120]

This makes sense! +1!

[Ashen.2907]

I would rather see aggro not be based on toughness. Have foes go after the people who are actually hurting it the most, or perhaps after the character that the boss can see is keeping all of his enemies alive via healing/support.

Right now one of my reasons for not enjoying raiding is that the bosses are idiots. Focusing on the character who is the most resistant to his attacks is moronic. 

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I would rather see aggro not be based on toughness. Have foes go after the people who are actually hurting it the most, or perhaps after the character that the boss can see is keeping all of his enemies alive via healing/support.

Right now one of my reasons for not enjoying raiding is that the bosses are idiots. Focusing on the character who is the most resistant to his attacks is moronic. 

Yes. That is the reason why holy trinity is so popular in MMORPG genre. It's exactly because it turns the bosses into idiots.

Frankly, if raids were to be made to use the core game's aggro system (or, heavens forbid, the GW1 aggro system), raiding community would decrease overnight by at least an order of magnitude.

[Danikat.8537]

I don't raid much, but from what I've seen this would be a useful change.

There was once not long ago I was doing Vale Guardian and for some reason it kept targeting me. Which meant the people from my guild who know I normally use a mix of vipers and rabid in open-world PvE kept on asking me to check if I'd forgotten to switch to my raid equipment (which is all vipers). I still don't know why that happened, but it meant as well as the problem with the boss suddenly targeting a different person we wasted a lot of time on pointless discussions.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

This would lead to increasing the minimum toughness-level. If you can no longer rely on those effects, you need more toughness from stats to tank. Especially if you have non-tank minstrel or someone with celestial-stats in your group. But sacrificing additional stats in favor of toughness is a guaranteed loss in efficiency.

From a build-crafter perspective, this would cause a couple of annoying extra problems. It depends on the meta-builds. I guess a higher need of gear-toughness would lead to a drop in DPS. The raid sub-community with its focus on efficiency may not like that.

Please ignore the crossed out lines. I thought the meta also uses these effects. But it seems that is not the case. Sorry for the inconvenience.
-
Idea: The current toughness system-aside, I would like to have a an option to select a tank-priority in squads. Rightclick on my name, select between 5 different levels. 1 + 2 for main and 2nd tank, 3+4 for the other players with toughness gear and 5 for the rest. When the toughness algorithm kicks in and there are multiple players within a toughness range of 300, the boss will pick the one with the highest priority of those players.

That way we could bypass the problem with fluctuating toughness values due to the effects listed by the topic-creator. 

Edited June 10, 2022 by HnRkLnXqZ.1870

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

This would lead to increasing the minimum toughness-level. If you can no longer rely on those effects, you need more toughness from stats to tank. Especially if you have non-tank minstrel or someone with celestial-stats in your group. But sacrificing additional stats in favor of toughness is a guaranteed loss in efficiency.

From a build-crafter perspective, this would cause a couple of annoying extra problems. It depends on the meta-builds. I guess a higher need of gear-toughness would lead to a drop in DPS. The raid sub-community with its focus on efficiency may not like that.

Is there any tank build that depends on those transient effects to work? From what i remember, those things are generally disliked by tanks, because they have to accomodated for by using greater toughness than necessary, thus causing the very drop in efficiency you speak of.

 

 

[Zunki.3916]

9 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

This would lead to increasing the minimum toughness-level. If you can no longer rely on those effects, you need more toughness from stats to tank. Especially if you have non-tank minstrel or someone with celestial-stats in your group. But sacrificing additional stats in favor of toughness is a guaranteed loss in efficiency.

From a build-crafter perspective, this would cause a couple of annoying extra problems. It depends on the meta-builds. I guess a higher need of gear-toughness would lead to a drop in DPS. The raid sub-community with its focus on efficiency may not like that.

-
Idea: The current toughness system-aside, I would like to have a an option to select a tank-priority in squads. Rightclick on my name, select between 5 different levels. 1 + 2 for main and 2nd tank, 3+4 for the healers with toughness gear and 5 for the rest. When the toughness algorithm kicks in and there are multiple players within a toughness range of 300, the boss will pick the one with the highest priority of those players.

That way we could bypass the problem with fluctuating toughness values due to the effects listed by the topic-creator. 

I agree and see the problem. But I also think that that community is totally able to play around it. Maybe a little shakeup of some details in meta tank builds, but at worst some tank builds lose a small amount of dps.

On the other side it would be easier to implement builds like catalyst and skills like signet of earth into rotation, without needing communication with the tank and him adapting to your build. And that would make pugging easier and more accessible.

For a long time some stuff like condi weaver was hard to play not because dmg was bad but because it had toughness buffs (which they eventually changed, but they only did some of the buffs, not all, and then implemented the problem again with catalyst). This change would just clear the whole issue in one go.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Zunki.3916

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

20 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Is there any tank build that depends on those transient effects to work? From what i remember, those things are generally disliked by tanks, because they have to accomodated for by using greater toughness than necessary, thus causing the very drop in efficiency you speak of.

I'll delete it. Thanks for the reminder.

18 minutes ago, Zunki.3916 said:

On the other side it would be easier to implement builds like catalyst and skills like signet of earth into rotation, without needing communication with the tank and him adapting to your build. And that would make pugging easier and more accessible.

For a long time some stuff like condi weaver was hard to play not because dmg was bad but because it had toughness buffs (which they eventually changed, but they only did some of the buffs, not all, and then implemented the problem again with catalyst). This change would just clear the whole issue in one go.

I get that concern. The signets with their passives are a little weird. If the developers can get it done, sure.

Edited June 10, 2022 by HnRkLnXqZ.1870

[Asum.4960]

The simplest/most convenient replacement for bosses designed around a dedicated tank (currently largely in the form of toughness tanking) is probably to solve it similarly to SH, with an interactable Rune or the like on the ground which designates a player as dedicated tank upon interaction.

[Zunki.3916]

11 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

The simplest/most convenient replacement for bosses designed around a dedicated tank (currently largely in the form of toughness tanking) is probably to solve it similarly to SH, with an interactable Rune or the like on the ground which designates a player as dedicated tank upon interaction.

It is the most convenient, but I'm not sure if they actually want that. With how it currently is they can implement stat combos they want to work in open world/wvw by adding toughness while they wont work in raids.

I'm not sure if that is by design or not, but just saying. I'm not sure but maybe celestial/trailblazer could be kind a good for some support/starter dps roles and by not making it useable in raids they can have it in open world/wvw. But I might be completely off.

[Asum.4960]

14 minutes ago, Zunki.3916 said:

It is the most convenient, but I'm not sure if they actually want that. With how it currently is they can implement stat combos they want to work in open world/wvw by adding toughness while they wont work in raids.

I'm not sure if that is by design or not, but just saying. I'm not sure but maybe celestial/trailblazer could be kind a good for some support/starter dps roles and by not making it useable in raids they can have it in open world/wvw. But I might be completely off.

I think limiting stat choices there is more a hinderance of that design, not the goal - especially since it's already a more and more outlying/odd mechanic. Plenty of Raid bosses have random fixates, or special action/pick up aggro, proximity, etc. (with no newer content in Strikes featuring the toughness tanking system either, implying they are trying to move away from it) - it's seems like it would be a strange design goal to inconsistently bar some stat combinations for just those specific Toughness Tanking bosses. 

 

Especially if those are stats that would only be relevant for easier access or transition into raids, which is one of the biggest pain points of the game which they are trying to overcome, while not affecting anything high end.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Zunki.3916]

On 6/10/2022 at 1:44 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. That is the reason why holy trinity is so popular in MMORPG genre. It's exactly because it turns the bosses into idiots.

Frankly, if raids were to be made to use the core game's aggro system (or, heavens forbid, the GW1 aggro system), raiding community would decrease overnight by at least an order of magnitude.

For me the trinity is popular because it sets up the ability to have different roles in a MMO while also ensuring all roles are actually used, needed and therefore accepted in group content. Group composition in GW2 before trinity light has been introduces was just stacking dd and cleave everything down. And while the majority seems to love to play powerdps cleavage only, some dont like it. The need of some form of a trinity is actually higher than ever in todays meta playstyle. Which does not mean it has to be done in the traditional way, there are options.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Zunki.3916 said:

For me the trinity is popular because it sets up the ability to have different roles in a MMO while also ensuring all roles are actually used, needed and therefore accepted in group content. Group composition in GW2 before trinity light has been introduces was just stacking dd and cleave everything down. And while the majority seems to love to play powerdps cleavage only, some dont like it. The need of some form of a trinity is actually higher than ever in todays meta playstyle. Which does not mean it has to be done in the traditional way, there are options.

It's more than that. Sure, the need for roles is important, but there's something way more important for most members of raiding comunities in most games i have seen so far: consistency and predictability. Raiders want to have full control (or as close to it as possible) over the whole encounter, so the encounter becomes a puzzle to be solved, rather than an a pure test of reflexes and spatial awareness. Raiders for the most part want to know precisely when a mechanic will spawn, which mechanic will spawn, and preferably where that mechanic will spawn and where the boss will be at this point. If there's a player-specific mechanic, they'd also like to be able to at least partially (if not fully) control which players will get it. A setup where the boss dynamically reacts to what is happening, adjusting its behaviour and actions to the behaviour of players (but not in an extremely predictable way), instead of following some preprogrammed pattern or playing to the rules players set is the exact opposite of this.

A situation where boss can switch to any player at any time, especially when that player is in the worst situation to be a tank at the moment, where boss can use its mechanics on players the group would definitely don't want to be picked, etc, is a raiders' nightmare, because it requires much, much more from individual players. Small group of raiders would probably enjoy it, and even thrive in such fights, but most would find it simply beyond their ability (unless other elements were significantly nerfed compared to how raids are now).

GW2 mobs, btw, originally had a much better AI scripts, with them being able to move out of AoEs, switch to players low on hp, and being able to dodge. Anet disabled it during early beta, because those mobs even in OW turned out to be way too hard for players. Compared to those those after-nerf dumbened down OW mobs, raid bosses are even dumber, and to a significant level. It's not an accident, or a mistake, but completely calculated design.

[Bakeneko.5826]

On 6/10/2022 at 2:44 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. That is the reason why holy trinity is so popular in MMORPG genre. It's exactly because it turns the bosses into idiots.

Frankly, if raids were to be made to use the core game's aggro system (or, heavens forbid, the GW1 aggro system), raiding community would decrease overnight by at least an order of magnitude.

You sure you got that right? In Trinity MMOs tanks have to keep agro with agro generating skills and DPS can do too much damage for boss to switch onto them, same with healing and healers. GW2 has dumbest bosses in MMO.

[Zunki.3916]

4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

It's more than that. Sure, the need for roles is important, but there's something way more important for most members of raiding comunities in most games i have seen so far: consistency and predictability. Raiders want to have full control (or as close to it as possible) over the whole encounter, so the encounter becomes a puzzle to be solved, rather than an a pure test of reflexes and spatial awareness. Raiders for the most part want to know precisely when a mechanic will spawn, which mechanic will spawn, and preferably where that mechanic will spawn and where the boss will be at this point. If there's a player-specific mechanic, they'd also like to be able to at least partially (if not fully) control which players will get it. A setup where the boss dynamically reacts to what is happening, adjusting its behaviour and actions to the behaviour of players (but not in an extremely predictable way), instead of following some preprogrammed pattern or playing to the rules players set is the exact opposite of this.

A situation where boss can switch to any player at any time, especially when that player is in the worst situation to be a tank at the moment, where boss can use its mechanics on players the group would definitely don't want to be picked, etc, is a raiders' nightmare, because it requires much, much more from individual players. Small group of raiders would probably enjoy it, and even thrive in such fights, but most would find it simply beyond their ability (unless other elements were significantly nerfed compared to how raids are now).

GW2 mobs, btw, originally had a much better AI scripts, with them being able to move out of AoEs, switch to players low on hp, and being able to dodge. Anet disabled it during early beta, because those mobs even in OW turned out to be way too hard for players. Compared to those those after-nerf dumbened down OW mobs, raid bosses are even dumber, and to a significant level. It's not an accident, or a mistake, but completely calculated design.

I agree at least me I really love the predictable puzzle solving aspect to it. I think the less puzzle solving aspect can be achieved in pvp so there is something for both worlds available.

As for GW2 in particular: The release gw2 aggro system and the tools the players had to react to that aggro system was insanely dumb and got countered by "stack on one place and stack boons and cleave everything down while dodge some circle from time to time". And that felt extremely bad.
I don't say a system without trinity cannot exist, but gw2 skills and cc and their cooldowns did not work at all for engaging group content in dungeons. You couldn't properly cc mobs, it all felt like semi random and while there even might be some skillfull playing around stuff, it often was abusing terrain to kite something around. The skill ceiling to actually controll the battlefield, if that existed at all, was either high or dumb low, depending on how you tackled it.

I also dislike modern WoW dungeons, as they primarily remove CC out of the concept.

If you want good AI you also need tools to protect your glass cannons from said AI. That might be through body/skill blocking projectiles or ways of defensive buffs. But if every buff is AOE without any targeting, the obvious solution is just clusterbuilding, which is what happened and which feels dumber than everything I've ever seen in WoW. Because what you effectively do is building the group so it does not matter who has aggro. And how can that be more engaging as having to control the aggro?

Edited June 13, 2022 by Zunki.3916

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

You sure you got that right? In Trinity MMOs tanks have to keep agro with agro generating skills and DPS can do too much damage for boss to switch onto them, same with healing and healers. GW2 has dumbest bosses in MMO.

In theory, sure. In practice, it rarely happens unless the tank is really bad or there's massive gear difference between tank and dps. And some games seem to go out of their way to simplify that even more. Just look at FF XIV and its aggro system - barring some extreme edge cases, it's next to impossible for tank to lose aggro there. And they no longer even need to use any aggro-generation skills, because just by being tanks they generate massive amount of aggro on any skills they use. The whole idea of separate dps and aggro skills for tanks has been dropped there long ago.

The role of tanks is no longer primarily aggro management. Now it's more about staying alive, doing special tank-specific mechanics, and proper positioning.

[The Boz.2038]

"Tank died! Crap! Lemme eat some omnomberry bread to take over tanking so the run doesn't go entirely haywire!"

This idea should not die.

No.

[Bakeneko.5826]

15 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

"Tank died! Crap! Lemme eat some omnomberry bread to take over tanking so the run doesn't go entirely haywire!"

This idea should not die.

No.

This is such a stupid idea. From the begining there should have been agro system, where too much dmg and too little CC (Anet could have used CC as agro generating mechanic) would result boss wiping the floor with squad. But I guess dumbo agro system is better for gw2 "Hardcore elite" casuals (or do we still pretend GW2 is not a casual game?)

[Astralporing.1957]

25 minutes ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

This is such a stupid idea. From the begining there should have been agro system, where too much dmg and too little CC (Anet could have used CC as agro generating mechanic) would result boss wiping the floor with squad. But I guess dumbo agro system is better for gw2 "Hardcore elite" casuals (or do we still pretend GW2 is not a casual game?)

You seem to misunderstand something. The very idea of aggro system in which you can make the boss attack whoever you want is, by itself, "dumbo agro". The degrees of dumbness between "old style" aggro management and GW2 systems are truly minimal. The more complicated aggro system might make it seem like players are playing it smarter or more skilled, but it's only an illusion - in reality both versions operate on assumption that the boss can be turned into an idiot.

This is by design. It's not like better AI does not exist, it's that most raiders (in any MMORPG, not just GW2) would not want to lose the kind of control the trinity system (or its byproducts/lookalikes like in GW2 raiding) gives them.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Cuks.8241]

On 6/13/2022 at 12:18 PM, Bakeneko.5826 said:

You sure you got that right? In Trinity MMOs tanks have to keep agro with agro generating skills and DPS can do too much damage for boss to switch onto them, same with healing and healers. GW2 has dumbest bosses in MMO.

My only real reference to this is Wow raiding, maybe there are better games on this territory out there. For wow this was true only up to Woltk. And I was actually a big fan of that mechanic at the time. It basically required everyone to manage their aggro. But it also meant that dps classes without frequent aggro wipes had the disadvantage and an artificial dps ceiling (hello warriors).

But for woltk they completely nerfed the mechanic and unless the dps purposely bursted at the pull the mechanic was pretty much redundant. And even that was remedied by a simple taunt. I guess they felt that the mechanic  limits other mechanics and sets a redundant dps ceiling, which I guess was true.

I tanked pretty much all of the woltk encounters and there was never really a point when holding aggro would be an issue. Maybe at some transition where boss wipes aggro table but if you want such oh snap moments you can do it in some other manner and gw2 has those.