New Meta being ruined

[Astralporing.1957]

8 hours ago, Baseleader.4128 said:

I see a lot of people requesting this be instanced, but I feel like you lose quite a lot of sense of awe if you do so. Doing DE is quite exciting to me because of a sense of build up and "everyone is coming together". A sense i never ever have doing Dragonstorm which is just unbelievably boring frankly. I greatly prefer the HoT metas to DS as well.

Something that is not being done because it is too long, too annoying and not enough rewarding will not create a sense of awe. Failing because there were 15 fishers on map will not create a sense of awe. Wasting again another 2 hours of your time for no rewards because time ran out while your group was still at around 20% (common occurence for typical OW pug squads) will not create a sense of awe.

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Making it instanced just doesnt change much unless you also gut the difficulty and make it scale.

Quite the opposite - in a 50-man instance you can leave the difficulty as it is. The change would be not in making the fight easier, but in not forcing it onto the OW crowd that for the most part is just plain not compatible with it.

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If you dont gut the difficulty, don't you just risk the issue of people starting to ask for LI or some sort of KP to be able to participate? Sounds like a split in the playerbase that I don't think is healthy. 

It was already happening in the beginning. The only reason why this stopped is because, first, some groups created other methods of prefiltering (like forming up on different maps), and because most of normal OW players just stopped showing up so the need to prefilter went down.

The split in the playerbase is already there. You're just on the side that does not see it.

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Baseleader.4128]

5 hours ago, Zephire.8049 said:

And if one side or the other sees a drop in activity, hey, that's information and can be addressed through re-balancing and guide future content into being something that has a better shot of having life after the novelty wears off.

The novelty has worn off and yet it does have life. People are doing/completing the meta quite often.

 

5 hours ago, Zephire.8049 said:

Have it be a map meta but tone things down to where it's reasonable for unorganized pugs to have a shot at it (if not, it will be unplayed content unless an organized group runs it and that's not healthy or fun for either group)

I do somewhat understand your sentiment but isnt this true for many metas? Chak Gerent, AB, Dragonstand are also maps where you kind of have to get into the correct map to kill the boss. 12 people cant just walk into eachother in Tangled Depths an kill the Gerent. Same in Dragonstand. You also have to look at the LFG and get into a map at the correct time where people are properly going for the meta for a high chance of success. DE requires the same thing, just more organization for the commander, and more time spent organizing (which makes sense with an increased reward).

[Baseleader.4128]

6 hours ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

I do not care if it is instanced or not.  But... If I am on the map, it is for my own reasons. I am not there for the event.  Sometimes I do a little of the prep events, if I feel like it, and it pops up nearby. But I have no interest in the event, and am amused with the players trying to treat it like an instance.  I am not on your team, and it is not my fault how A-Net set up the event/server. 

I'm not sure who you're addressing here. You quoted me but I haven't really suggested it's not ok to fish in DE or that you're forced as a player to join the meta event? I have called out in Map Chat suggesting everyone who wants to, to come to the fight cause every hand helps, but I've never whispered fishers or stalked them or anything.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Baseleader.4128 said:

The novelty has worn off and yet it does have life. People are doing/completing the meta quite often.

Yes, relatively small amount of people are doing this meta very often. Most people however do not do it at all anymore.

1 hour ago, Baseleader.4128 said:

I do somewhat understand your sentiment but isnt this true for many metas? Chak Gerent, AB, Dragonstand are also maps where you kind of have to get into the correct map to kill the boss. 12 people cant just walk into eachother in Tangled Depths an kill the Gerent. Same in Dragonstand. You also have to look at the LFG and get into a map at the correct time where people are properly going for the meta for a high chance of success. DE requires the same thing, just more organization for the commander, and more time spent organizing (which makes sense with an increased reward).

Untrue. All you need in those former metas is player numbers. You can easily start "organizing" the TD or AB map when the final counter shows up just before the event itself, and have that "organizing" mostly limited to putting LFG up to ferry players in. And if you can get 10+ players per lane/side, you have a decent chances at success. With 15+ players per lane/side, you will almost certainly win. In DE, the amount of organization is several orders of magnitude higher, and even with it a lot will depend on the quality of players you will get - with the normal crowd that routinely completes AB, TD or DS, on DE you'd be still more likely to fail than win. With the usual HoT meta train players and comparable levels of organization you will be guaranteed to fail DE.

[yoni.7015]

52 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Untrue. All you need in those former metas is player numbers. You can easily start "organizing" the TD or AB map when the final counter shows up just before the event itself, and have that "organizing" mostly limited to putting LFG up to ferry players in. And if you can get 10+ players per lane/side, you have a decent chances at success. With 15+ players per lane/side, you will almost certainly win. In DE, the amount of organization is several orders of magnitude higher, and even with it a lot will depend on the quality of players you will get - with the normal crowd that routinely completes AB, TD or DS, on DE you'd be still more likely to fail than win. With the usual HoT meta train players and comparable levels of organization you will be guaranteed to fail DE.

There is not that much of organization needed in DE. You basically just need 10 alac, 10 quickness and 30 DPS. By now most players know what to do and there are not many commands needed anymore. 
And more likely to fail than to win is simply not true if you did this little organization. The success rate is at least 60%. 
Players that do HoT metas do the DE meta too, so “guaranteed to fail DE” is not true as well. They are not two separate groups of players. 
You only fail the meta with an unorganized group but everyone can join organized groups. So it’s really up to you if you fail or succeed. 
Didn’t you write in another thread that you stopped doing the meta? Maybe you don’t really know what the current situation is. 

Edited June 22, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Gorem.8104]

On 6/20/2022 at 6:26 AM, Veprovina.4876 said:

It's just a multi quote with multiple people, i perfer not to spam the forums for each individual reply. 😉

 

Well, i'm nothing if not optimistic, even though Anet keeps showing me how stupid that is to be... 

Well, balance pass or no, it AGAIN won't solve the issue that, this meta should be its own instace, without the 2 hour required  pre-events that give you nothing, just the meta, let it be on that map, and let it start public instances like Dragonstorm does, every few hours, with the ability to go in with your own squad immediately.

 

That's the only way they'll fix what they did and that's pitting people against each other. 

Hardcores can make their own squads, "casuals" and open worlders can wait for public instances, and fishermen and quest/achievement hunters can enjoy the map in all its glory.

Oh yeah for sure, it does amaze me we go from Drizzlewood coast, an awesome map on its own with awesome rewards for play, Grothmar Valley, an incredible map (I so wish you could do more with the chili's so there was more incentive to come back to this awesome map) And Dragonstorm being instanced, amongst all the bad with IBS they did at least get a few things right. They for some reason decided to outdo themselves with EoD however, and just decided to not get anything right instead. 

 

Things that worked in the past? nahhh lets do things that have not worked in the past, that'll hook em' Seriously, Dragonstorm is proof that instanced content works for all kinds. Especially with it being on the World Boss device. If This meta was instanced at the start... Its amazing how different all of this woulda gone down. 

[Astralporing.1957]

37 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

There is not that much of organization needed in DE. You basically just need 10 alac, 10 quickness and 30 DPS. By now most players know what to do and there are not many commands needed anymore. 

That "just" is a massive difference. There's only one other meta that requires some specific roles beyond "just dps-ing", and it's TT (you need the people with reflects to take care of eggs). Not even TT needs any level of boon coverage however. Just that one requirement advances the whole organization of this event to be several tiers above most other OW metas, and one tier above TT.

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And more likely to fail than to win is simply not true if you did this little organization. The success rate is at least 60%. 

No. The success rate is above 90% for the highly organized groups. It's near zero for the groups that ogranize the way they usually do for other metas however. And since the latter groups are getting more rare with each day, i would nto be surprised if the success rate achieved that 90% soon. It would not mean however players became more succesful at it, it would just mean that those that were not succesful stopped playing it.

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Players that do HoT metas do the DE meta too, so “guaranteed to fail DE” is not true as well. They are not two separate groups of players. 

In a way, there are. The make-up of HoT metas groups, and DE squads is different.

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You only fail the meta with an unorganized group but everyone can join organized groups. So it’s really up to you if you fail or succeed. 

No. It's not up to you whether the group you join will be organized enough. The only way to assure that is to get rid of players that make up unorganized groups. Which in a way is happening, because they simply give up. Notice, though, how this solution of yours does not work for that majority that gave up - if all those players decided to join "organized groups", those groups would turn into "unorganized" ones and start failing very fast.

Notice also, that "unorganized" groups aren't really unorganized. They are just organized to OW standarts, not to the much, much higher DE ones.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Gorem.8104]

12 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

It's entirely possible they don't. Which is its own problem.

I would imagine a lot of people, especially those that don't always follow the game, may not even know that about the marionette if they don't have much reason to go to Eye of the North. Same thing goes for Dragonstorm. So visibility can be an issue.

Furthermore they do have a point about the inevitable gatekeeping issues, since as of now people cannot remove you from the fight.

Open World vs Instance both have their pros and cons. I think any instanced version should be a hard mode so people who want a challenge can go out and find it. But for more casual onlookers like myself, we should be able to pick it up if we're in the area and feel like doing so.

 

On visibility, I just wanted to mention, when I came back to the game (around the time last year that IBS champions was released) I had not done any IBS, but as I had the last one unlocked, the World Boss Portal Device, once I turned the warnings on, told me about DS and took me there instantly. And from then on I farmed that place daily for ages. Did they ever put Marionette on the device? 

[yoni.7015]

12 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 

Notice also, that "unorganized" groups aren't really unorganized. They are just organized to OW standarts, not to the much, much higher DE ones.

The standards for DE are not “much, much higher”, they are a little bit higher because some alacrity and quickness is good to have. But it is not difficult to get that because most classes can now provide  these boons. 

Edited June 22, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Hotride.2187]

13 hours ago, Baseleader.4128 said:

If you dont gut the difficulty, don't you just risk the issue of people starting to ask for LI or some sort of KP to be able to participate? Sounds like a split in the playerbase that I don't think is healthy. 

You mean like the groups that were asking for 250 LI on release? Huh. I guess that has nothing to do with instances.

[Baseleader.4128]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, relatively small amount of people are doing this meta very often. Most people however do not do it at all anymore.

Probably true for every meta in the game. People move on and only certain players keep coming back to content. 

 

31 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

No. The success rate is above 90% for the highly organized groups. It's near zero for the groups that ogranize the way they usually do for other metas however.

So then join an organized group. I just don't get the problem with a single meta-event, the pinnacle of the Dragon arc requiring you to put in an absolute minimum of effort and teamwork. It doesnt require you to spend hours at the golem practicing your rotations. The same players that are doing the most damage at Chak Gerent are also doing the most damage here. The more veteran players who have different builds will take it upon themselves to give quickness/alacrity, like in every other meta event. But yes, it requires you to join a serious squad and put in a minimum of preparation. Why is this terrible? This is a Multiplayer game.

 

 

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

Nobody wanted to listen to tinfoil-head and their made-up problem with afk-farmers and explorers occupying meta participation slots. I'm not happy about being correct. But yeah, told ya ^^

Edited June 22, 2022 by HnRkLnXqZ.1870
​😕​​😢​

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

There are several aspects to this.

Fishing party stacks should not go away on map change.

DE meta needs better rewards. The difficulty is fine. Groups still fail, by Anet wants this meta to be hard. (Very Big Hint: The commander running it matters. Bad commanders lead to bad runs, good commanders succeed every time). But for the time investment and difficulty? A single a.s.s., trash loot, and a very low chance at an account bound infusion is not sufficient.

To me the pre event chain where you get into firing positions should have substantially increase rewards. Things like slendid jade tech chests at each step with guaranteed drops (jade rune stones and chunks of jade and a few unusual coins and gear).

[Baseleader.4128]

Very much agree with both these suggestions. 

[Gorem.8104]

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

There are several aspects to this.

Fishing party stacks should not go away on map change.

DE meta needs better rewards. The difficulty is fine. Groups still fail, by Anet wants this meta to be hard. (Very Big Hint: The commander running it matters. Bad commanders lead to bad runs, good commanders succeed every time). But for the time investment and difficulty? A single a.s.s., trash loot, and a very low chance at an account bound infusion is not sufficient.

To me the pre event chain where you get into firing positions should have substantially increase rewards. Things like slendid jade tech chests at each step with guaranteed drops (jade rune stones and chunks of jade and a few unusual coins and gear).

Wait a minute, the infusion is account bound? What? Hahahahaha What? 
So really you get like maybe 8 gold ish for spending 2 hours doing a stressful meta that has a chance to fail and you only get that gold if you don't fail, if you do, then you get nothing. And even if you do get lucky and get the infusion, you can't even sell it? Sheesh I'll be amazed if anyone is running this place in a year. 

[yoni.7015]

The infusion is account bound but the container with the infusion inside is not account bound. 
 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glob_of_Dragonvoid_Aether

[Astralporing.1957]

7 hours ago, Baseleader.4128 said:

Probably true for every meta in the game. People move on and only certain players keep coming back to content. 

I was talking in comparison to many other OW metas. Many of them much, much older and yet still vastly more popular than this one. The group that makes you think this event is still alive is really small.

 

7 hours ago, Baseleader.4128 said:

I just don't get the problem with a single meta-event, the pinnacle of the Dragon arc requiring you to put in an absolute minimum of effort and teamwork.

If it really required that (like, for example, Gerent, AB or Teq), we would not be having this conversation. The issue is that it requires significantly more than that.

7 hours ago, Baseleader.4128 said:

It doesnt require you to spend hours at the golem practicing your rotations. The same players that are doing the most damage at Chak Gerent are also doing the most damage here.

Maybe. The difference is in the rest of the players from Gerent. There's just no place for them in this event at all.

 

7 hours ago, Baseleader.4128 said:

Why is this terrible? This is a Multiplayer game.

And yet in this event you do not want to see most of this game's players. We seem to have completely different understanding of the meaning of multiplayer here.

[Artemis.8034]

I got it done and rarely went back. If you can even get in a map that isnt full from farmers/fishers , it fails more often than not because they obviously didnt think much about map population due to fishing , who knew fishing would be the end all be all of GW2. I guess we are on the downward slide at this point.. I join a group says 14 in squad..i cant join them because map full wth is that? Is it a bug? 

[ArchonWing.9480]

5 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

Nobody wanted to listen to tinfoil-head and their made-up problem with afk-farmers and explorers occupying meta participation slots. I'm not happy about being correct. But yeah, told ya ^^

Well normally that should not be an issue, but the lower map cap and the apparent design of having the boss fight be balanced around pop cap is inherently flawed.

Maybe if it was easy to hop around instances, but that is not the case.

Edited June 22, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Silent.6137]

28 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Wait a minute, the infusion is account bound? What? Hahahahaha What? 
So really you get like maybe 8 gold ish for spending 2 hours doing a stressful meta that has a chance to fail and you only get that gold if you don't fail, if you do, then you get nothing. And even if you do get lucky and get the infusion, you can't even sell it? Sheesh I'll be amazed if anyone is running this place in a year. 

As someone pointed out, it's the infusion itself after you selected that's account bound. Similar to many other items after opening/using.

It's easy to support your own arguments if you ignore everything else. The thing lacking for DE meta is the absence of a non auto-loot chest at every stage. If Anet would to change the drops from auto-loot to a visible chest such as at Drizzlewood (without actually changing the rewards), then there won't be as many misconceptions about how lucrative the map is for farming. I assume you no longer do the meta from all  your complains about it. If you can bring yourself to actually do it sometime and check the drops from the auto-loot chests and mobs, and then compare it to other metas, you might be surprised.

Also, if the meta is successful, aside from the hero's choice chest, there are lots of other primary and secondary chests. As for the failures, regardless of the reasons, I've yet to be a part of one for several months now on my almost-daily meta run with various LFG groups.

6 minutes ago, Artemis.8034 said:

I got it done and rarely went back. If you can even get in a map that isnt full from farmers/fishers , it fails more often than not because they obviously didnt think much about map population due to fishing , who knew fishing would be the end all be all of GW2. I guess we are on the downward slide at this point.. I join a group says 14 in squad..i cant join them because map full wth is that? Is it a bug? 

If you join a squad of 14 and the map is full, then it's probably because there are many on the map who are not in your squad. Also, there may be invisible tags. Not sure what the cap is but if it's 60+, then there were 46+ not in your squad.

[Fwog.9387]

On 6/19/2022 at 9:57 AM, SoulBlaze.3059 said:

Was with a meta running group in dragons end, we tried to join an instance and found that there was a large fishing group that refused to leave due to losing stacks. We told them they would lose stacks when the meta is failed anyways, and they still refused. We also found a botting group on the south side of the map of about 7 necros. We really need a way to allow fishing stacks to save temporarily for people leaving meta maps because these things are ruining meta runs. We also really need a way to boot botters. Its just dumb.

How dare people play the game how they want instead of how you want them to play. I am one of the fishers who fishes when people do dragons end. I make more gold down there and its more rewarding for my time. 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Jaricko.6143
Didn't notice I said dragon stand.

[Baseleader.4128]

3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Maybe. The difference is in the rest of the players from Gerent. There's just no place for them in this event at all.

There is a place for them? They can absolutely join and the event will still succeed. If the timer was 12min, then maybe you needed a squad full of hardcore raiders, but it's 20min which means you absolutely have time to spare and there is absolutely room for people who aren't playing 97% optimally.

[Doggie.3184]

Easy solution: fishing gives other people who are fighting the boss stacks of moist fish to hurl at it for damage.

[MrGarlic.1834]

31 minutes ago, Doggie.3184 said:

Easy solution: fishing gives other people who are fighting the boss stacks of moist fish to hurl at it for damage.

Good idea. Apparently dragons like fish so that may be enough to distract SooWon for a few seconds.

[Artemis.8034]

8 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

If you join a squad of 14 and the map is full, then it's probably because there are many on the map who are not in your squad. Also, there may be invisible tags. Not sure what the cap is but if it's 60+, then there were 46+ not in your squad.

Thats what i have been saying people not doing the meta are taking up map space