Thoughts on Emboldened Boon, and suggestions

[solvemprobler.4295]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, pray tell me then how your example is any different from mine?

Any change that impacts the overall difficulty and effort required is subject to the very same consideration. Whether it's the Emboldened buff, balance changes, power creep, raid community getting more experienced, allowing new players access to stuff like good raid guides, traiing guilds (or just better quality of potential squad mates) or even stuff like more raid tokens now being acquirable per week due to there being more wings (as well as additional LI from EoD strikes). We can't just single one and say this one counts, but other for some reason do not.

Let's be honest, how vocal people are about it is a determining factor. If people get annoyed at something loud/long enough, it will be addressed one way or the other. Now I'm not saying I'm aiming to raise a big cloud of dust for an achievement, but I am definitely saying it's an effortless way for Anet to avoid invalidating the time and effort players like me have put into raiding, without making Emboldened runs any different for newer raiders.

[Astralporing.1957]

5 minutes ago, solvemprobler.4295 said:

Let's be honest, how vocal people are about it is a determining factor. If people get annoyed at something loud/long enough, it will be addressed one way or the other. Now I'm not saying I'm aiming to raise a big cloud of dust for an achievement, but I am definitely saying it's an effortless way for Anet to avoid invalidating the time and effort players like me have put into raiding, without making Emboldened runs any different for newer raiders.

SHould now i become offended that you had it easier than me, and raise a similar fuss? If i did, what would you say? Honestly, your approach seem a little bit hypocritical to me. Especially since you have now admitted that it's not about having a good justification, but about just being loud enough.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Astralporing.1957

[Labjax.2465]

20 minutes ago, solvemprobler.4295 said:

Yes, in a way I'm saying you're right. I'm annoyed that the achievement is easier, but since being annoyed isn't going to change a thing, I'm suggesting an achievement to show myself on my achievement tab that I've killed all raid bosses before the game would introduce a boon to do just that with a 50% damage increase.
Let's try with an example:
let's pretend that on the 28th, the Treasure Hunter achievement doesn't require you to try your luck at specific champions across Tyria (or spending 300g on TP to buy a wooden rabbit), but instead needs you to go around Tyria and buy 3k karma worth of trinkets from Heart vendors, much like the Koutaophile achievement. Anyone that has done it before will get no recognition for having cleared it the normal way.

Wouldn't you agree that more than some of those people would be annoyed at the news?
Now, you could say the Treasure Hunter achievement doesn't come close to awarding the same amount of QoL and riches as a chest in your home instance, but I'm hoping you can see beside this to understand what I'm trying to say.

Personally, I think making people jump through absurd hoops for prestige show-off is anti-social culture to begin with and mainly exists in video games to sell product, so even though there might be some part of me annoyed if I had just jumped through a bunch of hoops to get some in-game title or item and then other people blatantly got it way easier, in principle I'd be glad they don't have to do what I did.

In other words, I can sympathize and relate with the emotional response of it because these systems are designed to evoke emotions like pride in what you've accomplished (that infamous EA line comes to mind), but in principle I'm still going to side with tearing down that BS whenever possible and strengthening a community instead.

Edit: Also worth noting, it's communities that make games have staying power in the long-term, not prestige. And what I have repeatedly found is that groups made up of people who are in it for the prestige eat each other alive eventually because the "I want to feel like I'm better than you" mentality has to go somewhere and when an outside target is missing, it can get turned inward.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Ashen.2907]

30 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said:

 

 

Correction:

 

 

Edit: As for achievements becoming easier... I really don't see why it matters.  Why is an achievement only valuable if no one else has it?   You know you got it the hard way.  Why is it important that other people must know that you got it the hard way?  Seems vain.

 

My mistake. Thank you.

Still it is not unreasonable to desire some form of alternate in return for removal of an aspect of the reward. 

[solvemprobler.4295]

8 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

The truth is, OP is already having it easier than the players that were doing those achieves when the content was current. For some reason he does not seem concerned with that at all. All he cares about is that some other players in the future may have it easier than he did.

I don't think it's fair to compare the developing meta of an MMO through the years indirectly changing the way raids are run...to an official decision ANET has taken, to devalue achievements originally intended to be cleared without a 50% damage, health, and healing power increase.

Let me make this extremely clear. I think people should play/try normal mode because I'm convinced it'll be more fun than training wheel mode, but that's just the way I enjoy the game, so I'm not here to tell people how to play.

I care about other players getting the same achievements for less work, because that invalidates my efforts towards said achievements. Now, if Anet is willing to throw achievements that have been around for 7 years under the bus, there's nothing neither you nor me can do about it. My only question is, does it have to be that way? Can't Emboldened runs help players get their LI/gold/knowledge of mechs, and that's it? Achievements seem caught in the crosshairs of accessibility, at older players' expense.

It's not about getting others to grind as much as I did (in fact, if they picked the easy way only, they'd have to grind way more). It's about ANET throwing me a bone and giving me a simple badge (that new players can get as well, and might be a nudge to take the training wheels off!) that says I cleared stuff without Emboldened runs.

[solvemprobler.4295]

9 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Personally, I think making people jump through absurd hoops for prestige show-off is anti-social culture to begin with and mainly exists in video games to sell product, so even though there might be some part of me annoyed if I had just jumped through a bunch of hoops to get some in-game title or item and then other people blatantly got it way easier, in principle I'd be glad they don't have to do what I did.

In other words, I can sympathize and relate with the emotional response of it because these systems are designed to evoke emotions like pride in what you've accomplished (that infamous EA line comes to mind), but in principle I'm still going to side with tearing down that BS whenever possible and strengthening a community instead.

Edit: Also worth noting, it's communities that make games have staying power in the long-term, not prestige. And what I have repeatedly found is that groups made up of people who are in it for the prestige eat each other alive eventually because the "I want to feel like I'm better than you" mentality has to go somewhere and when an outside target is missing, it can get turned inward.

I see what you're saying, though the gaming community has gotten a lot more competitive over the years.
I'm not that kind of player, and  GW2 doesn't attract those kinds of people, if we disregard spvp 🙂
Tearing down BS to strengthen the community...well I could argue I'm here doing the same thing.
This isn't at all about making sure others don't get what I have. I'm not asking to be the only guy with the achievement 🙂 put it out there, I'm sure a lot of people will take off their training wheels and try to get it with newfound confidence after Emboldened runs.
I'm not here saying the boon needs to go, I'm here saying "achievements stay ON" is a lack of respect for my time and efforts, from an MMO that's usually very, very good at doing that.
I don't think Anet quest for accessibility invalidating some crucial raiding achievements is good design. It doesn't have to be a zero sum game.

While we should keep in mind that prestige is a core aspect of an MMO, I'm not here trying to enforce that. I'm not that kind of player, I don't chase title, it's a personal thing, just not so personal I'm ok with just "knowing I've done it", and that's just the way I am.

[Labjax.2465]

Just now, solvemprobler.4295 said:

I see what you're saying, though the gaming community has gotten a lot more competitive over the years.
I'm not that kind of player, and  GW2 doesn't attract those kinds of people, if we disregard spvp 🙂
Tearing down BS to strengthen the community...well I could argue I'm here doing the same thing.
This isn't at all about making sure others don't get what I have. I'm not asking to be the only guy with the achievement 🙂 put it out there, I'm sure a lot of people will take off their training wheels and try to get it with newfound confidence after Emboldened runs.
I'm not here saying the boon needs to go, I'm here saying "achievements stay ON" is a lack of respect for my time and efforts, from an MMO that's usually very, very good at doing that.
I don't think Anet quest for accessibility invalidating some crucial raiding achievements is good design. It doesn't have to be a zero sum game.

While we should keep in mind that prestige is a core aspect of an MMO, I'm not here trying to enforce that. I'm not that kind of player, I don't chase title, it's a personal thing, just not so personal I'm ok with just "knowing I've done it", and that's just the way I am.

I don't see how what you're asking for isn't reinforcing prestige. You're specifically asking for the game to acknowledge that you did it without emboldened, are you not? What reason is there other than prestige? An achievement or title is something you can link or show off (prestige). Otherwise, you'll still have the memory of you having done it without emboldened mode.

I'm afraid I don't get where it can be not prestige you're after, but also not totally personal sense of accomplishment. Pretty confused where in-between that your position is supposed to exist.

[solvemprobler.4295]

43 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

SHould now i become offended that you had it easier than me, and raise a similar fuss? If i did, what would you say? Honestly, your approach seem a little bit hypocritical to me. Especially since you have now admitted that it's not about having a good justification, but about just being loud enough.

I'm just being realistic: if you raised enough of a fuss, it would've been possible for Anet to pick up on it and perhaps change things.
As I said before and as you decided to ignore, it's not what I'm trying to do, but I can see how that makes me look like I'm here to make a fuss in hopes to be heard, so I guess it's on me for having derailed the conversation that way.

I think I have a good justification: the boon gives LI, gold and achievements for 50% the effort. I think achievements ON is too much, but I'm not here screaming bloody murder, as I'm just one guy and Anet can very easily ignore that.
What I think is a fair suggestion is adding an achievement so that there's fair play between players who do Emboldened runs and players that don't...as of now, there isn't.

- solves the above mentioned issue
- players usually doing Emboldened might feel enticed by the achievement and take the training wheels off
- it's not stepping on anyone's toes

I am genuinely surprised at the amount of explaining I've been compelled to do in this thread

[solvemprobler.4295]

2 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I don't see how what you're asking for isn't reinforcing prestige. You're specifically asking for the game to acknowledge that you did it without emboldened, are you not? What reason is there other than prestige? An achievement or title is something you can link or show off (prestige). Otherwise, you'll still have the memory of you having done it without emboldened mode.

I'm afraid I don't get where it can be not prestige you're after, but also not totally personal sense of accomplishment. Pretty confused where in-between that your position is supposed to exist.

Then I guess we can agree it is prestige, but not the kind to belittle other players.
Need I remind you, it's raids we're talking about. Some of the hardest content in the game, designed to be hard. I can already hear people think I'm elitist but that's just what raids are.
The mindset prioritizing prestige at the cost of a more cohesive community would be something along the lines of  "I don't want new players to get LI easier than I have earned it". This is nowhere close. I endorse the boon, but I think achievements are there to be cleared in normal mode.

As a side note, prestige can be an important part of this game for a lot of people. There's prestige in expensive dyes, expensive minis...the fact that there's a few super toxic ones telling you playing for anything but prestige is stupid are giving prestige a bad rep.
It's an mmo, if it isn't pvp, then there'll be a different kind of competing. I'm not much that kind of player though, just making a point 🙂

[solvemprobler.4295]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

SHould now i become offended that you had it easier than me, and raise a similar fuss? If i did, what would you say? Honestly, your approach seem a little bit hypocritical to me. Especially since you have now admitted that it's not about having a good justification, but about just being loud enough.

also, I'm not offended at players, I'm annoyed at Anet for not thinking of most players. For making newer players' life easier, and invalidating the time of players like me in the process...it's not a zero sum game, there are ways to make both parties involved happy, far more elegant than a new achievement. I'd love to see more people raiding

[Rogue.8235]

1 hour ago, solvemprobler.4295 said:

Yes, in a way I'm saying you're right. I'm annoyed that the achievement is easier, but since being annoyed isn't going to change a thing, I'm suggesting an achievement to show myself on my achievement tab that I've killed all raid bosses before the game would introduce a boon to do just that with a 50% damage increase.

Other than AP, how is this different from you already knowing that you did it the hard way?  Just curious, because  I truly do not understand the mindset.  Please alleviate my ignorance.

1 hour ago, solvemprobler.4295 said:

let's pretend that on the 28th, the Treasure Hunter achievement doesn't require you to try your luck at specific champions across Tyria (or spending 300g on TP to buy a wooden rabbit), but instead needs you to go around Tyria and buy 3k karma worth of trinkets from Heart vendors, much like the Koutaophile achievement. Anyone that has done it before will get no recognition for having cleared it the normal way.

I don't see a problem here.  It doesn't matter how other people get things, or that they have them.  I only care about getting things I like for myself.  Making anything I have gotten in this game cheaper for others to get doesn't affect me.  I'm pretty sure most of what I have unlocked is far easier to get for others now.  I don't know for sure because it's a non-issue and not worth looking up.  I'm not affected by others concerning things that I, personally, like and that I, personally, have done.

1 hour ago, solvemprobler.4295 said:

Wouldn't you agree that more than some of those people would be annoyed at the news?

No? 

It doesn't affect me so how would it be annoying?  The achievements and shinies that I got are mine for me to enjoy.  I have no idea how many others have those same things, nor what it took for them to get it if they did.  It doesn't matter to me.  

1 hour ago, solvemprobler.4295 said:

Now, you could say the Treasure Hunter achievement doesn't come close to awarding the same amount of QoL and riches as a chest in your home instance, but I'm hoping you can see beside this to understand what I'm trying to say.

Still not. I think there is a fundamental mindset that differs between you and I, which is why we're unable to understand each other's point of view.  

 

[Rogue.8235]

18 minutes ago, solvemprobler.4295 said:

As a side note, prestige can be an important part of this game for a lot of people. There's prestige in expensive dyes, expensive minis...the fact that there's a few super toxic ones telling you playing for anything but prestige is stupid are giving prestige a bad rep.
It's an mmo, if it isn't pvp, then there'll be a different kind of competing. I'm not much that kind of player though, just making a point 🙂

Okay this clears everything up.

The issue is that some players obtain achievements and items not because they want them, but because they use it as a means of scoring for competition against others.

That's not a concept I can easily understand, but I think that's what you're referring to.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Labjax.2465]

21 minutes ago, solvemprobler.4295 said:

Then I guess we can agree it is prestige, but not the kind to belittle other players.
Need I remind you, it's raids we're talking about. Some of the hardest content in the game, designed to be hard. I can already hear people think I'm elitist but that's just what raids are.
The mindset prioritizing prestige at the cost of a more cohesive community would be something along the lines of  "I don't want new players to get LI easier than I have earned it". This is nowhere close. I endorse the boon, but I think achievements are there to be cleared in normal mode.

As a side note, prestige can be an important part of this game for a lot of people. There's prestige in expensive dyes, expensive minis...the fact that there's a few super toxic ones telling you playing for anything but prestige is stupid are giving prestige a bad rep.
It's an mmo, if it isn't pvp, then there'll be a different kind of competing. I'm not much that kind of player though, just making a point 🙂

I don't believe that everyone who chases prestige in a game consciously sees it as a way of belittling other players or being better than them, but I'm not sure it's really possible to separate the two psychologically. There is a difference between having a good reputation because of something you've done for someone or a community and having a good reputation because of something attributed to you as an accomplishment.

That said, yes it is raids and some people very much do it for the prestige. I'm taking the position that I think in this case, being inclusive is more important than attending to said prestige. And I think it can be argued that it is, if successful, to the benefit of raiders in: 1) having more people to do them with and 2) if it (and possibly other changes down the road) makes them popular enough, getting more raid content to play.

If anything, I think attending too much attention to prestige in raids is part of what got them in this situation to begin with, where they are such low-played content, they can't justify devoting much resources to it. It's a fine line to make that work if your goal is to draw in people who are after prestige. You make something too exclusive and it becomes hard to justify the development time. You make it too accessible and the prestige-seekers go elsewhere. In that sense, referencing what you said earlier, it is somewhat of a zero-sum game.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[solvemprobler.4295]

5 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I don't believe that everyone who chases prestige in a game consciously sees it as a way of belittling other players or being better than them, but I'm not sure it's really possible to separate the two psychologically. There is a difference between having a good reputation because of something you've done for someone or a community and having a good reputation because of something attributed to you as an accomplishment.

That said, yes it is raids and some people very much do it for the prestige. I'm taking the position that I think in this case, being inclusive is more important than attending to said prestige. And I think it can be argued that it is, if successful, to the benefit of raiders in: 1) having more people to do them with and 2) if it (and possibly other changes down the road) makes them popular enough, getting more raid content to play.

If anything, I think attending too much attention to prestige in raids is part of what got them in this situation to begin with, where they are such low-played content, they can't justify devoting much resources to it. It's a fine line to make that work if your goal is to draw in people who after prestige. You make something too exclusive and it becomes hard to justify the development time. You make it too accessible and the prestige-seekers go elsewhere. In that sense, referencing what you said earlier, it is somewhat of a zero-sum game.

I see where you're coming from. I also agree with most of it, especially regarding demystifying raiding as this elitist activity. The Emboldened boon will hopefully work towards that goal. That said, I'm still convinced that in the way I've been extensively been mentioning, it's been poorly designed. While the raiding community, by the numbers we've been given, is a meager 5% of the entire player base, I just can't wrap my head around why we couldn't have a separation between people's efforts with and without the boon. It creates more content for 0 effort on their side, too, so I see it as a win for everyone- but I think this is where we respectfully disagree.

[Cynder.2509]

Terrible! Raids are fine already. Raids in GW2 are easier than raids in other games. Even on CM. 
I hope the easy mode doesn't give rewards because that would invalidate the progress of us people who did it the intended way and hardcore raiders. 
If the content is too hard for you then either be willing to get good or stay out of it. There's so much more in the game you can do. 
That's why Dark Souls and soulslike games are so good. They're not for everyone and they require the ability to learn. Even when people want an easy mode for them they're still remaining untouched thankfully. 
GW2 is hardly challenging in any way and I feel that it's becoming easier since 2012. Where's the challenge? Where's the fun? 
Strikes were intended to be the easy mode introduction to raids as I remember but that content ended up horrible as well. 
PS: people really need to learn what CC and rotations are. When you're DPS and the healer is out dpsing you and you get kicked, you should ask yourself why you got kicked instead of hate messaging the squad leader. 90% of the snowcrows benchmark is the bare minimum you are expected to do. There's people who want to have a successful and fast clean clear every week instead of carrying people and wiping due to them. For this case we want kp and LI pinged in advance to make sure you know what you're doing. But also please learn your class and role. There's so many guides and snowcrows exists for a reason. 
I can never enough give you this advice: Please learn basic stuff like CC and rotations and learn your kitten class/role before joining. 

[solvemprobler.4295]

11 minutes ago, Rogue.8235 said:

Okay this clears everything up.

The issue is that some players obtain achievements and items not because they want them, but because they use it as a means of scoring for competition against others.

That's not a concept I can easily understand, but I think that's what you're referring to.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Without quoting the first set of messages you've written, I just want to say I respect the way you play the game and I strive to see content the same way, I'm just quite absorbed by the purple gear grind right now 🙂

I am referring to that, yes, specifically to the way I see achievements which is both ways: for instance I will get Rockstar for both the completionist aspect of seeing a fully lit up Ember Bay achievement tab, but also to ping it to a friend in guild and talk about how crazy of an achievement it is.

[Hashberry.4510]

Perhaps this needs the Crab Bucket title.

[Rogue.8235]

42 minutes ago, solvemprobler.4295 said:

Without quoting the first set of messages you've written, I just want to say I respect the way you play the game and I strive to see content the same way, I'm just quite absorbed by the purple gear grind right now 🙂

I am referring to that, yes, specifically to the way I see achievements which is both ways: for instance I will get Rockstar for both the completionist aspect of seeing a fully lit up Ember Bay achievement tab, but also to ping it to a friend in guild and talk about how crazy of an achievement it is.

Gotcha.

There seems to be a difference in design philosophy here.  ArenaNet seems to be moving towards game design for those players who want things because that's what they want.  This does have an exclusionary effect on players who want things as a form of competition to others.  

I do not see an immediate method to accommodate both groups of players.  Design for one precludes design for the other.  This brings me back to one of my earlier posts.  A solution, in the instant case, is to have a set of achievements solely for the purpose of the latter group of players.  This would consist of achievements solely for the purpose of of demonstrating mastery over the raiding content as it was originally implemented.  Simultaneously, the legendary gear and participation achievements would remain obtainable in emboldened mode.  This is what I was referring to when I posted:

8 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

I thought the announcement stated that there are some achievements that cannot be obtained with emboldened mode.

I haven't looked at all the raid achievements, so are all the raid wings covered with this?  As in, there's achievements that are precluded from emboldened mode for every raid wing?  If not, then agree with the above.

 

Seeing as the patch hasn't dropped yet, we should wait and see what was actually implemented.  

I'm sure ArenaNet is aware of the two, seemingly, mutually exclusive motivations for obtaining items and achievements.  This conflict arises with the Mad King and Wintersday festivals.  However, this is an important distinction for the forums to be aware of in future discussions.

Thanks for the, paradoxically, public tête-à-tête.

 

[Labjax.2465]

4 hours ago, solvemprobler.4295 said:

I see where you're coming from. I also agree with most of it, especially regarding demystifying raiding as this elitist activity. The Emboldened boon will hopefully work towards that goal. That said, I'm still convinced that in the way I've been extensively been mentioning, it's been poorly designed. While the raiding community, by the numbers we've been given, is a meager 5% of the entire player base, I just can't wrap my head around why we couldn't have a separation between people's efforts with and without the boon. It creates more content for 0 effort on their side, too, so I see it as a win for everyone- but I think this is where we respectfully disagree.

Yeah, fair enough. As much as I dislike the expression, I think we have to agree to disagree here. 😛

[Saharo.5381]

Why teach new raiders that mindless wiping can be rewarded? That is counter to everything about raiding.

Give a buff after X amount of time spent on the same boss, hitting boss HP milestones X times, or only for your first X number of clears. Don't give it for running in to die and learning nothing from it.

I think it should work more like a save point to keep trying where you wiped so you 1) can continue learning the rest of the fight 2) have chances to improve and not repeat the same mistakes 3) save the time spent slogging through the first part of the fight once you've shown you got that part down. That way it's not just a free hand out since with a full stack you can ignore pretty much any mechanic that's not an autodeath one. Even something like a Deimos oil trigger becomes irrelevant in the face of semi to max Embolden.

You should progress the raid by improving each pull. If you can't learn from mistakes and progress, what's the point of raiding? At least force people to spend some effort and exhibit some mechanics proficiency.

Also, did Strikes just totally fall flat on their face? Were they not supposed to introduce raid mechs to more casual players and get them ready for end game squad content? Have the people championing the raid accessibility issue done their time learning Strikes? If Strikes were a garbage fest (seem to be a lot of LFGs up for them when I run them, so I'd say they're healthy?), then I can understand the need to jump directly to raids and tweak. I made the transition from Strikes > Training Raids > Semi/EXP Raids like two months ago with no issues. Would love to see a nice incentive to move the Strike crowd over to raids, as that was the intended purpose of them right?

Edited June 25, 2022 by Saharo Gravewind.5120

[Raizel.8175]

I really don't understand the outrage. This "buff" will do almost nothing to help people get into raids. Raids in particular are first and foremost about mechanics. If you don't do mechanics properly, you will fail - no matter how much you buff struggling squads.

• You will fail VG if you constantly get teleported.
• You will fail Gorsy-chan - as a weaker squad - if you run into orbs and don't use updrafts.
• You will fail Sabetha if you fail cannons or run into her fire wall.
• You will fail Slothy-chan if you get feared to the edge of the world and don't manage to do shrooms properly.
• You will fail Trio if you don't do mechanics.
• This may help at Matthias.
• You will fail Escort if you don't do key mechanics.
• You will fail KC if you fail key mechanics.
• Xera? This buff will do basically nothing. Fail mechanics. Boom. You dead.
• This may help at Cairn (DPS Golem, yay!).
• This may help at MO (DPS Golem, yay!).
• This could help at Sam if people find their CC buttons.
• This may not help at Deimos - but it may lessen the burden on key roles.

The main problem of getting into raids is almost purely a social one. GW2 is already an unsocial game - it's even worse for raids since there are no real connection points between everyday open world content and instanced PvE. Getting into the proper social environment for raids is the most difficult step on getting into raids. This is where Arena Net needs to do some magic instead of some cheap buff.

The second problem - especially after the next balance patch - is balancing. If you're playing certain classes or builds, you're simply griefing your team mates. I mean, seriously: Don't play any Elementalist-build, don't play any pDPS build, don't play any Ranger-build at this point, don't play any Warrior-build. Better play Firebrand or Mechanist.

[Solitude.2097]

15 hours ago, Saharo Gravewind.5120 said:

Also, did Strikes just totally fall flat on their face? Were they not supposed to introduce raid mechs to more casual players and get them ready for end game squad content? Have the people championing the raid accessibility issue done their time learning Strikes? If Strikes were a garbage fest (seem to be a lot of LFGs up for them when I run them, so I'd say they're healthy?), then I can understand the need to jump directly to raids and tweak. I made the transition from Strikes > Training Raids > Semi/EXP Raids like two months ago with no issues. Would love to see a nice incentive to move the Strike crowd over to raids, as that was the intended purpose of them right?

Hm , i believe so . There might be people that find normal Strikes easy and Cm at the end of the spectrum , so for now Raids most likely will be used as the middle missing link .

While the majority of the population will catch up later (8-14months) learning mechanics and hopefully facing non-huge-HP sponges like the 100 lvl Strike.

If the Raid experiment wont take off , then they will join the slow slugs

Edited June 25, 2022 by Solitude.2097

[voltaicbore.8012]

3 hours ago, Raizel.8175 said:

The main problem of getting into raids is almost purely a social one. GW2 is already an unsocial game - it's even worse for raids since there are no real connection points between everyday open world content and instanced PvE. Getting into the proper social environment for raids is the most difficult step on getting into raids. This is where Arena Net needs to do some magic instead of some cheap buff.

This is truly the primary issue. The level of baseline organization a raid clear requires is so much higher than the rest of the game, and that's what keeps a lot of people out of them.

The problem is that the low-effort/low-organization model that the rest of the game has... that's arguably what draws the mass of players to GW2.

I'm baffled that ANet still wants to attract significantly more people to raids, and that raiders still actually want significantly more people to raid. The things that make raids what they are - the steeply heightened challenge, the need to organize, the need to actually engage with the combat system - are the antithesis of what's made this game successful over the years. At least that's what it looks like to me.

To the raiders, I say that you just have to accept that your slice of the community is small, self-selecting, and is stubbornly difficult to grow. Yes, that means even replacing just one person who quit your static is a pain, but you're playing GW2. This is a game built around specifically not needing to do all the nonsense raiders have to put up with. In other words, you're raiding in a game that is fundamentally allergic to raiding. It's a miracle that you even have this content to play (and some people to play it with) in the first place.

As for ANet, I don't know what to say. I can only hope you have some magical business numbers the rest of us can't see, numbers that make leaning harder into raids make sense. I get the sinking feeling that the sudden attention - after YEARS of atrophy -  to dungeons and raids are because the names "dungeon" and "raid" would be familiar to new players who'd get exposed to GW2 after its Steam launch, and having dungeons and raids be full dead would be an easy thing for Steam reviews to make fun of. I get that it's important to grow/evolve a durable product like GW2, and I get that a Steam launch might be part of that. But chasing growth at the cost of abandoning what makes your product successful in the first place... to put it politely, it's a terrible idea.

 

[Yello.3406]

How about we rename Envoy Armor to Envy Armor? This topic is completly rediculous.

[Astralporing.1957]

12 hours ago, solvemprobler.4295 said:

I think I have a good justification: the boon gives LI, gold and achievements for 50% the effort.

That's completely untrue. It offers at best a slight help, mostly in places where players have the least issues with.

1. The HP buff is completely irrelevant for most big boss attacks (they are percentage based, so all the increase to HPs will do is to make you suffer more damage)

2. Healing buff is weaker than HP buff, so, when coupled with the abovementioned issue will mean you will need to do more healing to keep up.

3. dps buff is more useful, but (as most raiders are always very fast to point out), most raid boss attemps do not fail due to reahing enrage, but due to failing specific mechanics. As such, it will help on few bosses, have next to no impact on most of them, and be a potential hindrance on at least two bosses i can think of (Samarog and Broken King).

Notice, that those changes will also go in at the very same time a massive overall nerf to dps (due to changes in banners, spirits, Spotter and other similar traits) will go in

and 4. The Emboldened buff will have no impact whatsoever on players' ability of dealing with most encounter mechanics properly. If you'll go into Sabetha's flamewall, you will still die. If people won't use CC on Samarog or Matthias, the selected player will still die. If you get hit by spikes on MO, you will still die. If you step into Black on Deimos, your group will still likely wipe... and so on, and so on.

In reality, some of the balance patches have introduced far bigger changes to how easy/difficult the encounters are than this one feature, whose impact will mechanically be at best minimal. The real effect of Emboldened will likely be primarily psychological - it will "embolden" some players to try raids where they were too afraid to do it before. Still, anyoen capable of clearing an Emboldened encounter will still be perfectly capable of clearing it at a normal level. The existence (or lack) of that buff will not change that one important point at all.

12 hours ago, solvemprobler.4295 said:

I think achievements ON is too much, but I'm not here screaming bloody murder, as I'm just one guy and Anet can very easily ignore that.
What I think is a fair suggestion is adding an achievement so that there's fair play between players who do Emboldened runs and players that don't...as of now, there isn't.

- solves the above mentioned issue
- players usually doing Emboldened might feel enticed by the achievement and take the training wheels off
- it's not stepping on anyone's toes

And i think that if this change is acknowledged to be worthy of making such distinction, then all previous significant changes to effective encounter difficulty and effort required should be equally acknowledged. Personally, i don't think they should be, but if Anet were to say that you are worthy of special treatment, then i should definitely want them to recognize all those that came before you with similar methods. Either the issue you raised should be resolved with comprehensive solution that applies to every single such case in the past, or should be ignored. What we can't have is introducing inconsistent approach that recognizes your effort, but not mine. Because such a solution would be "stepping on my toes"

12 hours ago, solvemprobler.4295 said:

I am genuinely surprised at the amount of explaining I've been compelled to do in this thread

Perhaps it's because what you think is simple and obvious may in reality not be so.