Quickness Herald doesn't work

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm starting to wonder ... is 'not' being able to give full duration coverage part of a greater plan here because it's not JUST Herald that suffers from this? Are we seeing the start of Anet reducing boon sharing durations across all classes so you have to stack roles in a team for full duration coverage?

I really can't see how that would be a good thing, since it'd mean that instead of needing one quickness and alacrity per subsquad you'd need two. Having four roles fixed per five players doesn't leave a lot of room for anything else.

Plus, subsquad builds based around sharing quickness among multiple players have existed and been nerfed, so the devs clearly aren't aiming to go in that direction either.

[The Boz.2038]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

you are either spamming them or camping them for the passive

3rd option: Save them for when you need their upkeep or consume effects? Maybe? I thought your whole raison d'etre was to discourage meta-think, rigid rotations, etc

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Are we seeing the start of Anet reducing boon sharing durations

If we are, starting with a newcomer to the field, instead of an axe to the face on the QFB, is an interesting choice. X for doubt.

[Aeolus.3615]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

(snip)

I'm starting to wonder ... is 'not' being able to give full duration coverage part of a greater plan here because it's not JUST Herald that suffers from this? Are we seeing the start of Anet reducing boon sharing durations across all classes so you have to stack roles in a team for full duration coverage?

That would be game changer.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[The Boz.2038]

2 quickness at barely 20k DPS to service two DPS at 40k DPS (assuming a single alac healer) does not make mathematical sense. Why bother with the boon at all then?

[Dahkeus.8243]

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, it might not be good but let's be honest, you are either spamming them or camping them for the passive. Not much in between there. 

 

 

The in between is not using the active until the right time.  The two main examples of this for PvE are saving your heal until you need it/when you can absorb damage and saving the elite for when you need to handle breakbars.  Facet of Darkness technically has some of this too (stun break/reveal), but it's much less meaningful in most PvE, so spamming it is fine.

 

If you need to spam all your facets on cooldown to maintain 100% quickness, then you lose out on a lot of survivability and breakbar utility.  On top of that, you'll also often need to be careful to not just knock smaller enemies all over the place when using your elite.

 

 

9 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

I'm starting to wonder ... is 'not' being able to give full duration coverage part of a greater plan here because it's not JUST Herald that suffers from this? Are we seeing the start of Anet reducing boon sharing durations across all classes so you have to stack roles in a team for full duration coverage?

 

I could see a theoretical meta where people don't just have designated roles for quick/alac and instead just have several people providing enough of these boons to keep them up, but

A) ANet would really have to communicate this strategy and dedicate to fully fleshing this out across all balance instead of just pushing out some half measures on some builds.

and

B) The drawbacks of bringing alac/quick would have to be a whole lot less penalizing.  Skipping damage traits/skills, running concentration stats, and such all bring down individual DPS dramatically.  Herald, even with the slight buffs to damage in this patch, will still be pretty weak DPS even when running berserker gear.

 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

On 6/25/2022 at 1:19 AM, Ahi.9673 said:

using a facet consume on CD is not 'spamming' and yeah all supports require boon duration gear, nothing new there

 

 

All other supports also do the SAME amount of damage a full DPS Herald does while running said boon duration gear and providing key boons. And it's not like they buffed Herald's DPS output with these changes to offset needing to run Diviner's, etc.

[Jthug.9506]

14 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

All other supports also do the SAME amount of damage a full DPS Herald does while running said boon duration gear and providing key boons. And it's not like they buffed Herald's DPS output with these changes to offset needing to run Diviner's, etc.

All true, and even if they double or triple the base quickness duration, the dps/quickness build may become viable but the removal of over half the outgoing healing bonus from salvation combined with having to choose draconic echo over elevated compassion has all but destroyed any kind of healing revenant build but especially quick heal herald.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Jthug.9506

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

22 minutes ago, Jthug.9506 said:

All true, and even if they double or triple the base quickness duration, the dps/quickness build may become viable but the removal of over half the outgoing healing bonus from salvation combined with having to choose draconic echo over elevated compassion has all but destroyed any kind of healing revenant build but especially heal herald.

True. And honestly the dps/quickness build probably won't be viable ever unless they revert the CD changes. Burst of Strength's 25% damage modifier for 5s is now effectively halved in uptime and we lose the full damage of two Elemental Bursts. It's just bad changes all around and I can't believe they nerfed full DPS Herald as well even though they "buffed it" lmao

Edited June 27, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Jthug.9506]

10 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

True. And honestly the dps/quickness build probably won't be viable ever unless they revert the CD changes. Burst of Strength's 25% damage modifier for 5s is now effectively halved in duration and we lose the full damage of two Elemental Bursts. It's just bad changes all around and I can't believe they nerfed full DPS Herald as well even though they "buffed it" lmao

Oh yeah those cooldown changes are obviously designed to discourage legend camping and promote swapping, but the consume effects should have 100% been buffed to compensate, especially burst of strength.

[Aeolus.3615]

3 hours ago, Jthug.9506 said:

Oh yeah those cooldown changes are obviously designed to discourage legend camping and promote swapping, but the consume effects should have 100% been buffed to compensate, especially burst of strength.

Which makes no sense cause Ventari already promotes that, because it has heavy  e-management cost heal, now healign less... 33%-40% less :P lol with that energy cost.

I feel like Ventari will become like the American health care system.. sorry Anet but im used to have it almost free....so i would like to keep providing good RevCare, im from a better country!

Edited June 28, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Jthug.9506]

7 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Which makes no sense cause Ventari already promotes that, because it has heavy  e-management cost heal, now healign less... 33%-40% less 😛 lol with that energy cost.

I feel like Ventari will become like the American health care system.. sorry Anet but im used to have it almost free....so i would like to keep providing good RevCare, im from a better country!

On the one hand yes it’s tempting to be in ventari because of it’s stronger healing, on the other hand it’s tempting to have the rest of your squad’s boon support optimize around facet of nature dragon and never actually leave glint. Or alternatively it’s tempting to leave glint if doing power quickness to get impossible odds for 10 seconds, but again that’s probably not as good as having facet of nature dragon on all the time and optimizing the rest of the squad’s boon support gear/consumables around it.

[Mr Crumpethead.2347]

The quickness implementation for herald runs counter to the design of the spec and goes against what makes it fun to play. Having to double tap every utility nullifies their design as upkeep skills with a flip over consume effect, and doesn't synergise with revenant's identity defining class mechanic of energy management. I feel really conflicted because its the first buff to my beloved herald in such a long time, possibly ever, but it just doesn't work. Even increasing the quickness duration wouldn't fix that the implementation is flawed.

[Dahkeus.8243]

Poking around a bit and I think quick herald works pretty well as a healer now.  
 

With mace/shield and dragon/Ventari stance in harrier gear, you can keep up 100% quickness, regen, fury, 25 might, swiftness and prot as well as more than 50% vigor based on my crappy-kitten attempt at testing it while I was on the phone.  
 

Here’s the log from the test.  I suck at benchmarks, but if I can attain this level of boon uptime while half-hazardous throwing out heals under the moderate damage environment, I’m sure other more capable players can do better.

 

https://dps.report/GBOa-20220630-224620_golem
 

Gear is full harrier with monk runes and concentration/transference sigils.  Weapons were mace/shield and staff.  Traits were Herald 1-1-2, Salvation 1-1-1 (3-1-3 better for vindi situations, of course), and I think other trait line was Invo for spirit boon, but probably could easily be something else like Ret since it doesn’t make much difference.

[soul.9651]

42 minutes ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

Poking around a bit and I think quick herald works pretty well as a healer now.  
 

With mace/shield and dragon/Ventari stance in harrier gear, you can keep up 100% quickness, regen, fury, 25 might, swiftness and prot as well as more than 50% vigor based on my crappy-kitten attempt at testing it while I was on the phone.  
 

Here’s the log from the test.  I suck at benchmarks, but if I can attain this level of boon uptime while half-hazardous throwing out heals under the moderate damage environment, I’m sure other more capable players can do better.

 

https://dps.report/GBOa-20220630-224620_golem
 

Gear is full harrier with monk runes and concentration/transference sigils.  Weapons were mace/shield and staff.  Traits were Herald 1-1-2, Salvation 1-1-1 (3-1-3 better for vindi situations, of course), and I think other trait line was Invo for spirit boon, but probably could easily be something else like Ret since it doesn’t make much difference.

I mean when u put it this way it might not seem as bad but i still doubt that its anywhere close to heal mech or hfb level.. however they are making some progress by giving us tiny bit more quickness altho much more work is still needed with the herald, and dont forget vindicators benchmark aswelll after we lost spirits and banners and had 0 compensations (but yet again i saw updates on crit cap for rev aswell so will see). All in all its nice to see at least something but its definetely not solved yet.

[Netko.9271]

2 hours ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

Poking around a bit and I think quick herald works pretty well as a healer now.  
 

With mace/shield and dragon/Ventari stance in harrier gear, you can keep up 100% quickness, regen, fury, 25 might, swiftness and prot as well as more than 50% vigor based on my crappy-kitten attempt at testing it while I was on the phone.  
 

Here’s the log from the test.  I suck at benchmarks, but if I can attain this level of boon uptime while half-hazardous throwing out heals under the moderate damage environment, I’m sure other more capable players can do better.

 

https://dps.report/GBOa-20220630-224620_golem
 

Gear is full harrier with monk runes and concentration/transference sigils.  Weapons were mace/shield and staff.  Traits were Herald 1-1-2, Salvation 1-1-1 (3-1-3 better for vindi situations, of course), and I think other trait line was Invo for spirit boon, but probably could easily be something else like Ret since it doesn’t make much difference.

 

It is little better now, but same as healing tempest, need at least stability or aegis to compete with HFB and Hmech

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Netko.9271 said:

 

It is little better now, but same as healing tempest, need at least stability or aegis to compete with HFB and Hmech

If anything, a power quickness herald would have a better chance since you can take Jalis for stability at a moderate DPS loss, but that requires the base DPS of power quickness herald to be competitive.

[Dahkeus.8243]

5 hours ago, Netko.9271 said:

 

It is little better now, but same as healing tempest, need at least stability or aegis to compete with HFB and Hmech

 

Yea, pretty much.  I'd put it as a decent option for strikes/raids as long as you have stab covered by someone else there.  The overall heal output is something I can't speak to and that may be something others with more experience could weigh in on.  It's likely not going to be desired by fractal groups unless they have a DPS firebrand or something though and the more complicated group comp gets to make something viable, the less likely pugs will even be open to messing with that.

 

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

If anything, a power quickness herald would have a better chance since you can take Jalis for stability at a moderate DPS loss, but that requires the base DPS of power quickness herald to be competitive.

 

I know a lot of DPS builds in general have been reduced since this last patch, but the last benchmark I saw was 25.8k with allies using Shiro.  It's still early and the people who are good at doing benchmarks are still doing a lot of testing to see how all the specs land, so it might be a bit early to tell what that really means in the overall scheme of things.

 

If the DPS hinders quick herald with Jalis too much and especially if power alac ren has fallen too far behind, then stability will be a lot harder for groups to cover in the future, which might make Firebrands an even bigger staple than they were before the patch.

 

 

 

[soul.9651]

Honestly they should do what teapot suggested because he was a spot on what revenant is missing: quickness up to 2,5 or maybe 3, massive buffs for sword 1 and 2 or buff the hell out of impossible odds or vengefull hammers. Rn herald is missing ton of dps to be viable and this also would solve or at least help with vindicators lack of dps. Also shield skills rly need some work aswell idk what if u could give an aegis or something like that for your subgroup with shield 4... 

[Polar.8634]

7 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

buffs for sword 1 and 2

Buff to sword 2 why not, but 1? Let's not ask for buffing autos pls. Or they make every class like mech now, pressing 1 is no fun.

[Fwog.9387]

On 6/25/2022 at 1:19 AM, Ahi.9673 said:

using a facet consume on CD is not 'spamming' and yeah all supports require boon duration gear, nothing new there

 

 

*cough cough* Except harbinger...

[soul.9651]

48 minutes ago, Jaricko.6143 said:

*cough cough* Except harbinger...

Firebrand aswell if they are going for the quick share strat...

[draxynnic.3719]

43 minutes ago, soul.9651 said:

Firebrand aswell if they are going for the quick share strat...

I think it was taken as given that the requirement to have boon duration gear assumes that the support is expected to provide 100% uptime on their own.

That said, double staff mirage doesn't bring a lot...

[Acheron.1580]

Tried out quick herald and honestly it is terrible with 100% boon uptime. Your goal is to leave FoN up full time (no problem) but it is insanely picky about rotation, to the point where trying to swap legends to do damage and provide different buffs with FoN becomes a complete nightmare, even with full boon duration up I was constantly losing or almost losing quickness. And oh boy was my damage completely terrible (sorry party!). IMO, leave it on the same talent and have it pulse quickness as long as your energy regen is in the negatives. Makes choosing what to keep up and what to consume more interesting in the long run, makes the rotation not God awful, becomes less rigid which means I dont have to constantly stare are my cooldowns to make sure I don't miss one, so I can actually focus on mechanics.

 

I'll give it a try again with a healing setup but I highly suspect the same issues are going to occur, it just wasn't designed with Revenant's core mechanic of swapping legends in mind at all.

[Axelteas.7192]

20 hours ago, Acheron.1580 said:

Tried out quick herald and honestly it is terrible with 100% boon uptime. Your goal is to leave FoN up full time (no problem) but it is insanely picky about rotation, to the point where trying to swap legends to do damage and provide different buffs with FoN becomes a complete nightmare, even with full boon duration up I was constantly losing or almost losing quickness. And oh boy was my damage completely terrible (sorry party!). IMO, leave it on the same talent and have it pulse quickness as long as your energy regen is in the negatives. Makes choosing what to keep up and what to consume more interesting in the long run, makes the rotation not God awful, becomes less rigid which means I dont have to constantly stare are my cooldowns to make sure I don't miss one, so I can actually focus on mechanics.

 

I'll give it a try again with a healing setup but I highly suspect the same issues are going to occur, it just wasn't designed with Revenant's core mechanic of swapping legends in mind at all.

I had in mind to build a herald around concentration (ritualist, diviner, or even celestial) in the context of wvw zerg by giving boons and quickness to the party, but reading your opinion turn me off. It seems like with herald have to choose between giving boons or doing damage, while with the Anet loved Quickbrand you can do both, it's sad.

I was thinking if using celestial would be interesting since the healing stat would boost the passive regen.

Did you use the firebrand rune to achieve the 100% quickness?

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Yeah some one tried with ritualist and herald/mallyx ? Could be easier with rune of FB rather than full diviner, leadership, and lost of precision !?

Something like http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAkeZlpQIMLKidRSMMCiJSgsCSgjukZzE-zRJYyRD/ZkuEIEFgYHA-e

Edit* found this. + I didn't know about the 2sec quickness tweak.

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Zhaid Zhem.6508