All "balance" patches should be thoroughly tested and given feedback by the community on a test server before going live

[Einsof.1457]

Anet, I think it's time you admit that there is almost no one left who understands the core Guild Wars philosophy. Since O'brien left, you've been trying, but failing. Why not utilize your best resource? Your players. Your players can test, and they don't even need you to pay them. Use them to help your testing, please. 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Zok.4956]

46 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

Why not utilize your best resource? Your players. Your players can test, and they don't even need you to pay them. Use them to help your testing, please. 

I agree, that Anet should do a better job in the "balancing" department. Anet made even a beta with the EoD elite specs, got a ton of feedback from players, and it feels like nothing from that feedback made it into the final elites at release.

However, player feedback is not the end-all solution. A player that clears all raid-cms every week is probably not the best choice to ask how leveling/ramp-up of new players, that struggle with dps/mechanics in open-worlds should be handled. And a player who is just fishing in open world is probably not the best choice to ask about better and more challenging raid and strike mechanics. And if you ask WvW players if thief should get more stealth/dps/mobility in WvW you get probably different answers depending on if the person that gives the answer is playing thief in WvW or not.

And when Anet did listen, it backfired. Before EotM was released there were a lot of play-tests with players and after release it was obvious that those players-testers did not understand what others have fun playing. Also before the HoT release the raids were tested a lot with some speed clear/high end players/guilds and this backfired also. Players mis-used their internal knowledge of the closed tests and announced their worlds-first raid clears after release.

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Zok.4956

[Dante.1508]

I agree.. The dev has even admitted to not knowing what he is doing on classes hes just destroyed.. on Reddit. I mean at least let players do the testing..

Edited June 26, 2022 by Dante.1508

[Fan Didly Tastic.7169]

Was literally going to suggest this in the patch preview. I understand that there are internal knowledge concerns but to be perfectly honest that's why it should be a public test realm. They could get numbers, ideas, and feedback all in one package.

May not be the perfect solution but judging from the current sentiments of players, the current method does not seem to be working.

[Mungrul.9358]

This is actually a massively good point that I can't believe flew under my radar until you mentioned it (and everyone else's!)

Almost every other MMO and Game-as-a-Service runs test servers to trial changes before applying them.

It's ridiculous that ANet don't.

[JTGuevara.9018]

58 minutes ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

This is actually a massively good point that I can't believe flew under my radar until you mentioned it (and everyone else's!)

Almost every other MMO and Game-as-a-Service runs test servers to trial changes before applying them.

It's ridiculous that ANet don't.

It's also a ridiculous excuse NOT to have it since betas for expansions exist.

[Hashberry.4510]

This assumes they would be able to process and act on that info. I am not convinced they can. This is not a developer knock, I just think this stuff has always been marred by staff and communication issues endemic to the industry and this studio.

[Obtena.7952]

Testing would have little impact. The issue isn't that things are buggy or don't work. The issue is inequality of class design to fill a specific role; whether that's found on a test server or live, is irrelevant. Also, you don't need to play to see how hard it is to upkeep 100% quickness on Herald compared to FB for example.

In otherwords, the inequalities don't need to be played to be discovered and reported. It's obvious for anyone that knows how mechanics work. That means ... Anet is either ignorant to their class mechanics or they don't care enough about inequality to check for it in the first place. 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[ScottBroChill.3254]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Testing would have little impact. The issue isn't that things are buggy or don't work. The issue is inequality of class design to fill a specific role; whether that's found on a test server or live, is irrelevant. Also, you don't need to play to see how hard it is to upkeep 100% quickness on Herald compared to FB for example.

In otherwords, the inequalities don't need to be played to be discovered and reported. It's obvious for anyone that knows how mechanics work. That means ... Anet is either ignorant to their class mechanics or they don't care enough about inequality to check for it in the first place. 

I don't think Anet is ignorant on class mechanics nor do they not care enough. I think Anet wouldn't do the balance if they didn't want to. They have a good reason. This is the direction they want and I think it's pretty bad of you to assume that they don't know what they're doing. I know you've told me this a number of times as well as telling other people, I'm starting to come around to your way of thinking. 

Also I'm pretty sure the play testing would be about the numbers, not really specifically about bugs. It's testing that would highlight how heralds quickness application sucks, tempest alacrity application sucks, and warrior is just... sad. It would further highlight how guard/necro/engi blow the other classes out of the water with their tool kits. This is an extremely bad patch that highlights that they don't have balancing devs playing every class and don't really get the disparity of class strength. It seems when other classes start creeping into the roles of guard/necro/engi, they nerf those down so anets classes don't lose their meta spots. I think the majority of the community was expecting FB, Harb, and Mechanist to be nerfed hard, but literally every other spec got smacked around instead. The things they added to add competition to to quickness/alacrity roles are just laughably bad in comparison, play testers could have told them how bad it is. 

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

Also I'm pretty sure the play testing would be about the numbers, not really specifically about bugs. It's testing that would highlight how heralds quickness application sucks, tempest alacrity application sucks, and warrior is just... sad. 

That's what I'm saying ... you don't need to play it to know it sucks. It's just numbers. Whether it's played in test or live doesn't matter. 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Foxon.2369]

A Public Test Realm might not be in the budget of Anet's staff, plus it would require resources which everyone knows Anet doesn't have. They already have a very good, sound system (that in my opinion is superior to something like WoW's PTR system): The beta system.

A few weeks before major patches (maybe not for smaller patches), let us create test characters the same way beta characters work. They can't earn anything, they are snapshot characters, except using the new patch update so players that want to give input, the experts, the casuals, everyone can test for themselves and provide input here on the forums and Reddit. A day or two would never hurt and would fill the void Anet needs but can't provide.

One downside of a PTR is you need an abundance of players or you can't do things like raid testing, major group content, etc for real world testing. With beta characters, that's all fixed because they're on real servers.

[Mungrul.9358]

4 hours ago, Foxon.2369 said:

A Public Test Realm might not be in the budget of Anet's staff, plus it would require resources which everyone knows Anet doesn't have. They already have a very good, sound system (that in my opinion is superior to something like WoW's PTR system): The beta system.

Fair point.

I think we can all agree that there needs to be some form of community testing before releasing these things into the wild.

Be that through existing channels or new ones is a moot point. It just needs to happen.

[ZDragon.3046]

13 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's what I'm saying ... you don't need to play it to know it sucks. It's just numbers. Whether it's played in test or live doesn't matter. 

In some cases though its not even that its gonna suck in its own right... its more so that its going to suck when compared to firebrand / mechanist. Those 2 classes alone set the bar very high and anything that is not near that means it sucks by comparison. Like a few of the changes anet is going for are not exactly bad ones on their own. Its just when players go "why would I run this in comparison to x elite spec that offers 10x more and does it easier and does not have to give up anything." 

Granted some people like things being more complexed so we cant expect every class to be made equally difficult to do a specific role if anything that would be a very bad choice in either direction. The first thing anet can do is start with firebrand and mechanist and just start lowering the bar once they lower the bar other things have room to shine in their own right. Its very surprising to most people that anet didnt see that.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

In some cases though its not even that its gonna suck in its own right... its more so that its going to suck when compared to firebrand / mechanist. Those 2 classes alone set the bar very high and anything that is not near that means it sucks by comparison. Like a few of the changes anet is going for are not exactly bad ones on their own. Its just when players go "why would I run this in comparison to x elite spec that offers 10x more and does it easier and does not have to give up anything." 

Granted some people like things being more complexed so we cant expect every class to be made equally difficult to do a specific role if anything that would be a very bad choice in either direction. The first thing anet can do is start with firebrand and mechanist and just start lowering the bar once they lower the bar other things have room to shine in their own right. Its very surprising to most people that anet didnt see that.

OK ... and we don't need a test server for that. 

Let me put it this way. Anet is going to pay for this thing. That's a business decision. They are ALREADY willing to release balance patches with these massive differences and all the business implications they have OK. So what is the compelling reason that players have to push Anet to get a test server?

In otherwords, people have come to the conclusion that a test server (which would be implemented solely for the purpose of players) somehow prevents Anet from releasing things people don't like. I can assure you, based on having played many games with test servers, that's NOT how they are used by the game developer. If Anet wants to see how broken FB/Mech is compared to other classes, they don't need to foot the bill for a whole test server and allow players access to it to get that information. 

You shouldn't assume Anet doesn't see things players do. They talk with players, like DIRECTLY. It's not that like the players they talk to don't have the same concerns we generally do. Honestly, it's not that they don't know about these massive performance differences. It's simply a question of how they view those differences. The consistent theme here is that there is a different perception between players and Anet on what is important and that difference leads to a prioritization that Anet has that seems all kinds of F'ed Up by us. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[volca.7234]

No, i don't trust the community to give 2 cents about balance and will instead cry a nerf every time they die to class in pvp or cry a buff everytime they die to a boss in pve

I agree players-dev communication channels should be improved but this would be much worse

[Grand Marshal.4098]

1 hour ago, volca.7234 said:

No, i don't trust the community to give 2 cents about balance and will instead cry a nerf every time they die to class in pvp or cry a buff everytime they die to a boss in pve

I agree players-dev communication channels should be improved but this would be much worse

Warr subforum pretty balanced and polite tho 😢😔

[kharmin.7683]

Over in SW:ToR, they released their "expansion" 7.0 after having it on a PTS and pretty much all of the complaints that followed were "the devs didn't listen to us".  Can't believe that it would be any different here.  /shrug

[Labjax.2465]

14 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Over in SW:ToR, they released their "expansion" 7.0 after having it on a PTS and pretty much all of the complaints that followed were "the devs didn't listen to us".  Can't believe that it would be any different here.  /shrug

Yeah, that was rough. I left after that and came here to see something similar happen, so fun stuff. I should have seen it coming with SWTOR though, I had some familiarity with how bad they could be. Here I was more ignorant of the history.