Follow up to the June 28 Balance Update Preview

[SlayerXX.7138]

10 hours ago, SpellboundTutor.4257 said:

And you know what? Even if that hasn't actually happened, very little criticism I have seen about this has been constructive. It's been a bunch of man-children throwing a temper tantrum about something that could be fixed.

True! But did you look at warrior banner? That is a planned change announced over 6 months ago. That is a quarter patch. Multiple persons working over a 3 month period did produce that. Its a joke.

People are overtly emotional about patches, but that doesn't excuse kitten work. Im not even a warrior player and I am mad at that. People shouldn't be attacking employs. But they have the right to kitten on the company as a whole for producing something like that.

This a systematic failure of the company and should be viewed as such.

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Ashen.2907]

9 minutes ago, SpellboundTutor.4257 said:

I mean, that's not really anyone's call to make other than that person's boss, right?

It's not helpful feedback from the playerbase. We don't know that person's workflow. We don't know if it was one person or a team of people. Or if all parties involved were working on the balance patch while also multitasking with working on balancing the next Challenge Mode, and maybe some wires got crossed. Or that maybe no one on the balance team plays a warrior main so they're not as "passionate".

The feedback we, as players, should be giving, is "We don't like how this works. This is why we don't like how this works." And, if you want, add in a "We want it to work like this."

Throwing around disciplinary action, as lenient as a reprimand or as severe as a firing, is not your job or your call. And it's frankly a gross overreaction from an echo chamber of toxic attitudes.

Of course the decision to reprimand an employee lies with their employer...which does not make such a suggestion inappropriate for one of the employer's customers. The owner of a local restaurant where a waiter made a disparaging comment about my race has every right to choose to not act upon my suggestion that he fire the waiter. That does not make my suggestion inappropriate.

And yes, throwing around suggestions for reprimand, etc is our call. Only the decision to act upon, or not, those suggestions is not our call.

The sort of feedback you suggest should be given has been. Repeatedly. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[Catilena.8729]

Also for the love of Aurene stop touching Soo-won in every freaking patch.

Just take out Tsunami Dodger altogether. Every time you guys do something to Soo-won she has a seizure and flies all over the place.

Criminy did you guys do ANYTHING right in this patch that wasn't for Guardian and Mechanist?

[SpellboundTutor.4257]

4 minutes ago, Seremela the Elf Mage.1748 said:

I think you've been left behind in the conversation at some point. This has moved beyond being an issue of "bad/questionable balance decisions" and become more focused on reprimanding an employee for behaving in an unprofessional matter and the company trying to gag any proof of their wrongdoing/mishandling the situation

Ahhh, okay. So the issue is that the game director got upset and let the corporate mask slip because he took the attacks lobbed against him and his team too personally. Is that what's going on? Or was there another member acting unprofessionally?

Because to me, it sounds like folks found a weakness in someone's armor and are attacking that weak point in retaliation for a lot of misplaced anger. Which is just petty "ends justify the means" logic.

[SpellboundTutor.4257]

19 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Of course the decision to reprimand an employee lies with their employer...which does not make such a suggestion inappropriate for one of the employer's customers. The owner of a local restaurant where a waiter made a disparaging comment about my race has every right to choose to not act upon my suggestion that he fire the waiter. That does not make my suggestion inappropriate.

And yes, throwing around suggestions for reprimand, etc is our call. Only the decision to act upon, or not, those suggestions is not our call.

The sort of feedback you suggest should be given has been. Repeatedly. 

That's a false equivalency from what I'm seeing here.

What I'm seeing, from my perspective, The balance updates were announced, happened, people got upset, attacked the developers personally, this post came out with someone saying people talking that way aren't welcome here, and now that's the focus of the conversation.

It's not an employee making a comment about a customer's race, it's a customer making a comment about an employee's race, then the manager coming out and asking them to leave. Then a group of customers getting upset about one being asked to leave and trying to get the manager fired.

If I am at all mistaken in what the problem is about, please tell me because I hope I'm wrong. Because I haven't had time to scan the 20-odd pages of back and forth banter.

Edited June 28, 2022 by SpellboundTutor.4257

[SlayerXX.7138]

20 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Of course the decision to reprimand an employee lies with their employer...which does not remove making such a suggestion inappropriate for one of the employer's customers. The owner of a local restaurant where a waiter made a disparaging comment about my race has every right to choose to not act upon my suggestion that he fire the waiter. That does not make my suggestion inappropriate.

And yes, throwing around suggestions for reprimand, etc is our call. Only the decision to act upon, or not, those suggestions is not our call.

Its is not our right to suggest firing people. "our" is relative. It a big Game company with an international community. You can get a sizeable mob of any opinion together on the internet. Should all Anet employee fear each word they write down on any semipublic site for all eternity because it has a change to ruffle some feathers? The Person in question is may or may not biased incompetent or whatever. It lies on the company to sort that not an emotional mob on the internet.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Albi.7250

[Raizel.8175]

Nice.

Apparently, we now have Rifle Mechanist sitting at 25k only auto-attacking while Berserker dropped to 25k altogether.

Good job, Arena Net, good job!

[Ashen.2907]

 

 

12 minutes ago, SpellboundTutor.4257 said:

That's a false equivalency from what I'm seeing here.

What I'm seeing, from my perspective, The balance updates were announced, happened, people got upset, attacked the developers personally, this post came out with someone saying people talking that way aren't welcome here, and now that's the focus of the conversation.

It's not an employee making a comment about a customer's race, it's a customer making a comment about an employee's race, then the manager coming out and asking you to leave.

If I am at all mistaken in what the problem is about, please tell me because I hope I'm wrong. Because I haven't had time to scan the 20-odd pages of back and forth banter.

First of all the employee began the public disparagement of customers before the patch notes. Before the customer reaction to those notes. As I have said previously I dont really have an issue with that as I dont think you can have good open communication without rough edges.

What I am saying is that suggesting that someone be fired after they have done a poor job, and have admitted to being inadequately knowledgeable, and have made statements to support theories that balance devs make changes based on supporting their preferred class/build/playstyle is not inappropriate. I would not make that suggestion, but others are not out of line for doing so.

I have not seen anyone indicate that the decision does not lie with the company. The fact that the company has that authority does not mean that others cant or shouldnt ask them to exercise it. After all, decisions regarding balance are made by the company, and yet you suggest that we make suggestions anyway. Do we make suggestions when the final decision is not ours or not?

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

Jesus christ, Mech can provide perma Quickness and Alc now, Are you out of your Mind Anet? Why did you juice up Mech to such extend?

Edit, just realized that quickness is self applied so ignore me. Still, I wouldn't put it passed them.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267

[Ashen.2907]

12 minutes ago, Albi.7250 said:

It lies on the company to sort that not an emotional mob on the internet.

Exactly my point. The company makes the decision, not the customers. The customers merely express their preferences for the company to decide whether or not to take into consideration...as is completely appropriate so long as the suggestions are not illegal.

[SpellboundTutor.4257]

14 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

 

 

First of all the employee began the public disparagement of customers before the patch notes. Before the customer reaction to those notes. As I have said previously I dont really have an issue with that as I dont think you can have good open communication without rough edges.

I mean, you absolutely can. Will there be friction, yes. But that's easy to overcome if everyone can be a mature adult about it. But honestly, the only side of this argument I've seen that hasn't been acting like an adult are the ones openly on the attack in 20-something pages of a thread started by the employee trying to address mistakes made in the best way they can and try to explain why an immediate 180 isn't feasible.

Quote

What I am saying is that suggesting that someone be fired after they have done a poor job, and have admitted to being inadequately knowledgeable, and have made statements to support theories that balance devs make changes based on supporting their preferred class/build/playstyle is not inappropriate. I would not make that suggestion, but others are not out of line for doing so.

I think any calls for firings over this is wildly inappropriate, but apparently we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that.

If there is favoritism speculation, like... yeah, people are going to call that out. I get that. And that's fine to call out. Just... maybe leave it at the "calling it out" part and eschew the "and they should be fired for it" part. But again. Agree to disagree, I guess.

Quote

I have not seen anyone indicate that the decision does not lie with the company. The fact that the company has that authority does not mean that others cant or shouldnt ask them to exercise it. After all, decisions regarding balance are made by the company, and yet you suggest that we make suggestions anyway. Do we make suggestions when the final decision is not ours or not?

I'm not arguing that anyone indicated that and, again, agreeing to disagree on calling for the firing of an individual over a balance patch. I think it's flagrantly childish and overly emotional, but clearly you and a lot of others think it's a rational and sound thing to do. Like cutting off a limb succumbed to disease so it doesn't spread or something.

My mind on this is, ultimately, "Say what you mean to say, point out what, exactly, is upsetting you, and approach it from a standpoint that you want the game to be better and that is more important than putting blame on any one person."

If someone is engineering balance due to favoritism, point out the imbalance. Be loud about it. Insanely so. But never. *NEVER*. Get personal. Because that guy you believe is playing favorites? They work with other members of the development team. Probably get along well with them. And the instant you get into personal attacks, that's when all your valid criticisms start to fall on unsympathetic ears.

Edited June 28, 2022 by SpellboundTutor.4257

[Latency.3907]

Having been with this franchise since 2005 with original release of guild wars 1, there have been solid and not so solid balance periods in both guild wars games.

 

Given the circumstances and big public perception issues with justification and process that profession balance is being implemented. Arenanet needs to more to make the Profession Balance Design Process more Transparent.

 

Ultimately, there is a big trust issue at the moment between a large swath of the most dedicated player base and "guild wars 2 developers" in general. I would hope the the METHOD that Arenanet uses to arrive at details of balance for profession balance involves MULTIPLE individuals for impartial vetting. The current state of profession balance projects an environment of favoritism of specifics professions and builds.

 

Josh, your studio's action to qualify the current details and numbers used in the balance is important but as is the process which final numbers are vetted and determined. Player needs to understand "WHAT DOES ANET DO TO BALANCE?" Ultimately, big picture is important and anet is moving in right direction, but the DETAILED numbers in each skill and traits NEED to be compatible with the bigger picture.

 

Currently, there is a big problem with perception whether true or not, that the final balance numbers and changes are not being done FAIRLY and it will be a long time before any changes come to correct them. An acknowledgement of current mistakes on this balance patch would go a long way.

 

 

[SpellboundTutor.4257]

1 minute ago, Latency.3907 said:

Having been with this franchise since 2005 with original release of guild wars 1, there have been solid and not so solid balance periods in both guild wars games.

 

Given the circumstances and big public perception issues with justification and process that profession balance is being implemented. Arenanet needs to more to make the Profession Balance Design Process more Transparent.

 

Ultimately, there is a big trust issue at the moment between a large swath of the most dedicated player base and "guild wars 2 developers" in general. I would hope the the METHOD that Arenanet uses to arrive at details of balance for profession balance involves MULTIPLE individuals for impartial vetting. The current state of profession balance projects an environment of favoritism of specifics professions and builds.

 

Josh, your studio's action to qualify the current details and numbers used in the balance is important but as is the process which final numbers are vetted and determined. Player needs to understand "WHAT DOES ANET DO TO BALANCE?" Ultimately, big picture is important and anet is moving in right direction, but the DETAILED numbers in each skill and traits NEED to be compatible with the bigger picture.

 

Currently, there is a big problem with perception whether true or not, that the final balance numbers and changes are not being done FAIRLY and it will be a long time before any changes come to correct them. An acknowledgement of current mistakes on this balance patch would go a long way.

 

 

Apologies for quoting you as I have nothing to add. I just wanted to say that this is a solid example of what I'd see as constructive criticism.

Thumbs up!

[Ashen.2907]

3 minutes ago, SpellboundTutor.4257 said:

I mean, you absolutely can. Will there be friction, yes. But that's easy to overcome if everyone can be a mature adult about it. But honestly, the only side of this argument I've seen that hasn't been acting like an adult are the ones openly on the attack in 20-something pages of a thread started by the employee trying to address mistakes made in the best way they can and try to explain why an immediate 180 isn't feasible.

I think any calls for firings over this is wildly inappropriate, but apparently we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that.

If there is favoritism speculation, like... yeah, people are going to call that out. I get that. And that's fine to call out. Just... maybe leave it at the "calling it out" part and eschew the "and they should be fired for it" part. But again. Agree to disagree, I guess.

I'm not arguing that anyone indicated that and, again, agreeing to disagree on calling for the firing of an individual over a balance patch. I think it's flagrantly childish and overly emotional, but clearly you and a lot of others think it's a rational and sound thing to do. Like cutting off a limb succumbed to disease so it doesn't spread or something.

My mind on this is, ultimately, "Say what you mean to say, point out what, exactly, is upsetting you, and approach it from a standpoint that you want the game to be better and that is more important than putting blame on any one person."

If someone is engineering balance due to favoritism, point out the imbalance. Be loud about it. Insanely so. But never. *NEVER*. Get personal. Because that guy you believe is playing favorites? They work with other members of the development team. Probably get along well with them. And the instant you get into personal attacks, that's when all your valid criticisms start to fall on unsympathetic ears.

Agree to disagree. I dont think that a customer expressing a preference is a bad thing. Of course the company can choose to ignore that expressed preference if it does not suit their own preferences. I don't normally consider, "your employee x has damaged the product/service for me, has insulted the customer base, has stated that he looks forward to the damage causing distress for customers, and has admitted that he alters the product to suit himself regardless of potential negative impact on company and customers, so he should probably not be working for you," to be a personal attack in the sense that the term is normally used.

I operate a business. If my customers observed one of my subordinates actively trying, and admitting to it, to make my customers unhappy, I would not call them toxic, for suggesting that my business might be better off without him. I would discuss the matter with the employee and try to figure the situation out in a reasonable matter rather than fire them on the spot, but that would not make mh customer's suggestion, nothing more than a suggestion, invalid.

[SpellboundTutor.4257]

7 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Agree to disagree. I dont think that a customer expressing a preference is a bad thing. Of course the company can choose to ignore that expressed preference if it does not suit their own preferences. I don't normally consider, "your employee x has damaged the product/service for me, has insulted the customer base, has stated that he looks forward to the damage causing distress for customers, and has admitted that he alters the product to suit himself regardless of potential negative impact on company and customers, so he should probably not be working for you," to be a personal attack in the sense that the term is normally used.

I operate a business. If my customers observed one of my subordinates actively trying, and admitting to it, to make my customers unhappy, I would not call them toxic, for suggesting that my business might be better off without him. I would discuss the matter with the employee and try to figure the situation out in a reasonable matter rather than fire them on the spot, but that would not make mh customer's suggestion, nothing more than a suggestion, invalid.

The main reason I disagree, I guess, boils down to perception of the situation.

My perception of the situation (which I fully acknowledge does not contain all of the facts, nor does anyone's, but mine is probably more barren of facts than yours) is that these balance changes were announced, people got upset and called for firings. Systems that the playerbase do not quite understand (because they have not been clearly explained to us) somehow prevented the balance changes from grinding to a halt before they were released. They came out, which compounded the anger. The anger was felt by the dev team, the dev posting this responded, said that the toxic attitudes resulting from said anger were not welcome, and people took that as an unprofessional and personal attack.

I still believe that calling for firings aren't okay whatsoever.

You seem to be talking to me like an adult and I do acknowledge and appreciate that, so I want to pose the question: What information am I missing? Where is my perception of events not matching up with yours?

Edited June 28, 2022 by SpellboundTutor.4257

[Lexan.5930]

i am mad

 

[Nagheaded.1306]

I started playing this game 2 months ago. The first three characters I got to level 80 were Warrior, Elementalist and Ranger. (I was following an obviously misinformed article which told me those were good professions). I spent about 3 weeks (at an average of 6 hours a day) scrounging for Berserker stats on ascended gear . Using this gear, I participate in Tier 4 fractals, manage to do raids and strikes. If I don't deal damage on Warrior, I practice my rotation until I do it better or get back to doing it acceptably. I liked the game, even though players can be fairly cruel if you do something they don't like, which is nothing new.

 

I logged in today to play my Warrior (like I do), only to find that picking up my banners actually hits me with a silence. I thought this was a bug. I wanted to complain or try to fix, and went to google a solution, only to find that this is now an intended function which gives quickness for a few seconds.

I tried to hit the training golem, but it turns out there are changes to my trait-line and this has mucked up my dps. I thought I'd go play one of the other character's I levelled up, only to find that they're probably in the same state as the Warrior I wasted the last two months on, or worse.

 

I'm a new player to this game, by whatever metric. I spent $60 on GW2 extensions, and I generally invested time and money into what I was doing, even if it was just for "content" and "entertainment".  I genuinely have no idea where to go from here?

 

Why would I invest another week levelling up another character which has received better attention from the development team? Should I keep playing these classes, one of which has clearly been nerfed to being completely unplayable, only to face the vitriol of other players when they see my crappy dps or boon duration?

 

Is there any feedback to this beyond telling me it's time to quit this game? 

 

[Labjax.2465]

4 minutes ago, SpellboundTutor.4257 said:

The main reason I disagree, I guess, boils down to perception of the situation.

My perception of the situation (which I fully acknowledge does not contain all of the facts, nor does anyone's, but mine is probably more barren of facts than yours) is that these balance changes were announced, people got upset and called for firings. Systems that the playerbase do not quite understand (because they have not been clearly explained to us) somehow prevented the balance changes from grinding to a halt before they were released. They came out, which compounded the anger. The anger was felt by the dev team, the dev posting this responded, said that the toxic attitudes resulting from said anger were not welcome, and people took that as an unprofessional and personal attack.

I still believe that calling for firings aren't okay whatsoever.

You seem to be talking to me like an adult and I do acknowledge and appreciate that, so I want to pose the question: What information am I missing? Where is my perception of events not matching up with yours?

I don't know if they're still deleting stuff that even vaguely mentions it, but it sounds like what you're missing is that a log of a private discord was leaked, where some players were able to talk to a certain dev and while most of what I saw in it was the dev's thoughts about balance and responses to said players, there were some comments made by said dev that reflects poorly on their ability to do the job impartially. It also just in general confirmed a lot of fears of people who already suspected that balancing was biased and unprofessional. It gets worse too because at least one of the people who had access to that discord indicated after the leaks that their perception was of said dev mostly ignoring the feedback provided to them, even in this private discord, and thereby ignoring important issues with various classes that were brought up.

[SpellboundTutor.4257]

Just now, Labjax.2465 said:

I don't know if they're still deleting stuff that even vaguely mentions it, but it sounds like what you're missing is that a log of a private discord was leaked, where some players were able to talk to a certain dev and while most of what I saw in it was the dev's thoughts about balance and responses to said players, there were some comments made by said dev that reflects poorly on their ability to do the job impartially. It also just in general confirmed a lot of fears of people who already suspected that balancing was biased and unprofessional. It gets worse too because at least one of the people who had access to that discord indicated after the leaks that their perception was of said dev mostly ignoring the feedback provided to them, even in this private discord, and thereby ignoring important issues with various classes that were brought up.

I would need to look at the leak myself. If this is true, that is absolutely something that should be brought up constantly until it is adequately addressed.

I would still say that calling for firings are unacceptable, especially as constantly bringing up such damning evidence could lead to that result on its own. But again, if it's true, then I'd be able to understand why people are as upset as they are. Again, I'd need the full picture.

[Angesombre.4630]

The vindicator was nerfed quickly for its heal but I still don't see any nerf of the new guard which is still very efficient, while bugs either of game or of display exist for example on the vindicator since the beta and are still present like the competence 3 of the greatsword.

[Arolandis.8360]

There are actually a lot of great changes in the patch but there are also a lot of oversights that need to be addressed and the notes also make a lot of people feel unheard over longstanding issues with their classes.

I LOVE the new Rifle changes for Engineer, and this is the sort of rework Warriors have wanted with their own weapons (and others, I'm sure).

Thief lost stealth on stealing and stealth on using their healing skill (youch), so if you want to reliably make a build focusing on stealth attacks you have to run dagger/pistol (still) to reliably get it when it's needed.

Anyway there really are a lot of good changes in this patch so I'm glad they're live, but it's all the other stuff people have been talking about that hasn't been touched that's making everyone aggravated, I think. But this post was fantastic and I really like Josh for addressing things.

Edit: I also just want to say, unrelated to this patch, that in the past few years of patches the biggest thing that's disappointed me was how few builds there could be to make after changes were made. A lot of classes ended up feeling like they could only ever pull off one build. But the class/spec we play is also what we like to "roleplay" as in a way. So when we can only play one build that works with that class/spec, it just feels bad.

So I am ALL for giving traits additional effects to give us more fun/whacky options for builds. When I started playing this game, it was because it was like MTG with it's customization. A lot of things have had cooldowns increased or doubled or things nerfed in a way that made them no longer useful. I feel that pain sometimes with Weaver.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Arolandis.8360

[Sugar Min.5834]

On 6/28/2022 at 2:21 AM, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Hi all,

~ Snipped ~

.... To those that have chosen extreme toxicity, called for developers to be fired, or sent death threats–you're not welcome in our community.

Josh Davis
Game Director
 

Oh I missed this last part.

Everyone agrees that calls for developers to be fired or sending death threats are totally uncalled for. Some people just lost it. But understand that they are just rude and angry customers. There are many ways to handle them but for a senior management staff to hit back at the customers and not holding back personal emotions is just as bad if not, worse. Unprofessional.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Mil.3562

[Arolandis.8360]

On 6/27/2022 at 2:21 PM, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Tomorrow morning the June 28 release will go live along with the balance changes previewed on Friday. As soon as we can, we’ll follow up with the ‘design notes’ for the update. From there, we’ll be reading your feedback, evaluating the impact of the changes, and determining our next steps. We’ve added a follow up balance update to our release schedule in the coming weeks to address critical issues. Then, in mid-fall, we’ll have our next major professions update. Somewhere in between we’ll share our profession balance philosophy.

Finally, I’d like to thank those of you who have approached this discussion in a civil manner. To those that have chosen extreme toxicity, called for developers to be fired, or sent death threats–you're not welcome in our community.

Josh Davis
Game Director
 

 

Thank you!

[Jillian.4502]

Any update yet or are they gonna ghost us for 2 weeks just to re-adjust some numbers?

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, SpellboundTutor.4257 said:

The main reason I disagree, I guess, boils down to perception of the situation.

My perception of the situation (which I fully acknowledge does not contain all of the facts, nor does anyone's, but mine is probably more barren of facts than yours) is that these balance changes were announced, people got upset and called for firings. Systems that the playerbase do not quite understand (because they have not been clearly explained to us) somehow prevented the balance changes from grinding to a halt before they were released. They came out, which compounded the anger. The anger was felt by the dev team, the dev posting this responded, said that the toxic attitudes resulting from said anger were not welcome, and people took that as an unprofessional and personal attack.

I still believe that calling for firings aren't okay whatsoever.

You seem to be talking to me like an adult and I do acknowledge and appreciate that, so I want to pose the question: What information am I missing? Where is my perception of events not matching up with yours?

The matter started before the patch/patch notes when a developer (not Grouch who started this thread) used the word "idiots" to describe (some of) the player base. He said that he was looking forward to seeing the "salt" that the patch would cause for the playerbase. He  made several statements indicating (perhaps more of an implication) that his preferred class and builds when he plays receive special treatment. He also made statements indicating that he was unfamiliar with at least some of the classes he was involved in balancing. Then the patch notes dropped and reinforced the implications.

Now, those statements were made to select players who were probably friends of the developer and so I do not consider the negative commentary toward the playerbase to be worth considering. I dont care if an employee of a company tells his friends, in what he considers an at least somewhat private venue, that he thinks I am an idiot or that he looks forward to making me unhappy with the game. I do care that he admits to be underqualified for his current role. I dont blame him for that. I think that his superiors need to provide him with more time and training to develop the skills needed to satisfy his customers. I do, also, care that he seems to be willing to allow his personal preferences as a player to override more objective balance considerations.

 

What you are seeing here is well after the fire was started by an Anet dev and after his boss came here and lumped people expressing an opinion about whether someone acting as described above should remain employed by the company in with someone allegedly making death threats.

Personally I do not want anyone fired...but the patch and Grouch's response have left me unable to trust the intent or ability of the current iteration of ANet as a whole. Every time there is a balance patch announced there will be the suspicion that perhaps a dev got trounced in PvP and is set on changing the game so that the build or class that beat him will be unable to match him in the future.