Follow up to the June 28 Balance Update Preview

[Kozumi.5816]

On 6/29/2022 at 2:02 PM, ResJudicator.7916 said:

I don't hold any ill will, and I think it's perfectly legitimate for players to enjoy raid-stacking (heck, that's what most MMOs are about)

No it's not, you're forced to not stack due to most mechanics in every MMORPG since the dawn of time. This is the only MMO I've ever played in 20+ years of gaming that makes stacking mandatory 99% of the time.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[Kozumi.5816]

On 6/29/2022 at 8:12 PM, Trigg.9402 said:

Gw2 will lose all the reasons that made it different from other MMOs. Gw2’s selling point was its unique class identities and ability to make whatever build you like to play however you like. With this gone, what’s going to be their buy-in for the fourth expansion when all the classes are the same? Because lets be honest, it was the elite specializations that kept players and gained new players. Without new unique elite specs and actual unique abilities, it’ll become another MMO with new maps, new pets, new skins and mounts, so nothing exciting really. And with how poor the marketing for this game is, it’ll suffer greatly. 

Yeah, they're just trying to make the game into FF14 now. Can't wait for this to not work since FF14 isn't played due to it's gameplay, it's the mods and outfits.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[Mik.3401]

On 6/27/2022 at 8:21 PM, Josh Davis.7865 said:

Hi all,

Game Director Josh “Grouch” Davis here. On Friday we posted the profession update notes for the June 28 release and since then there’s been a lot of heated discussion about the changes and what they might mean for the game. I’ve read thousands of comments since Friday, and I think there’s plenty of reasonable feedback – there always is. I’m not here to address those issues individually, but rather, I’d like to share some of my own perspective and talk about our next steps as a team.

A Clear Direction

It’s clear that we should have provided better context for the changes. It’s much more difficult to assess a given change without a shared understanding of the underlying goal of the change and the problem it’s trying to solve for. I’m not saying that we think that the update is flawless or that this is purely a communication issue – there are always valid criticisms of execution, and we welcome that feedback.

For this update, we opted to forego including ‘design notes’ in the release notes that explain the ‘why’ behind the changes, and instead chose to provide a general overview in the June Studio Update blog. This wasn’t an arbitrary decision on our part, but in retrospect, it was the wrong decision. We’ll change our approach for future updates.

In the near-term, the team will be writing up the ‘design notes’ for the June 28 profession changes, which we’ll publish on the official forums as soon as they’re ready. I’d like to ask for your patience as we work on this while also supporting the release.

Perhaps more importantly, we need to share the long-term vision for Guild Wars 2 profession balance and how it applies to PvE, PvP, and WvW. This has been provided piecemeal over the years (and some of it has bubbled up through unofficial channels without full context), but we haven’t provided anything official. This is a good opportunity for us to introduce some new voices in the internal discussion as well–Cameron Rich for example, who recently took on the role of Lead Systems Designer for Guild Wars 2. This future post will be a larger collaborative effort that will take some time to complete, especially as we bring new voices into the process, but we’ll aim to have it ready before our next major professions update.

Feedback

As game developers, it’s our mission to deliver experiences that our players will love. One of the best ways to achieve this is by including the ‘voice of the player’ in the development process, before things ship live. I think this is especially true for a game like Guild Wars 2, where many of you have spent the last 10 years investing your time and energy into this world.

We can do better on this front. We don’t have a definitive solution yet – but there are plenty of options for us to evaluate, with different costs and tradeoffs for each. What I do know is that it’s my responsibility to the team and our players to ensure that our developers have the tools they need to do their job – and player feedback is one of the most powerful tools we have in our toolbox.

What I can commit to today is that going forward we’ll preview our profession changes much further in advance of a major update (not the Friday before), even if it means that the changes are still in-progress and the preview isn’t exhaustive. This will give the team time to assess feedback and make any necessary changes prior to an update going live. I think it’s especially important that we do this when we’re making larger changes to long-standing systems or mechanics.

Always Changing

I recognize that some of you are frustrated. Through the years, profession balance hasn’t always received the attention it deserves, and there’s always been a lingering concern that the next update may be a long way off. Before I was an ArenaNet employee, I was a Guild Wars 2 player, and I felt those frustrations myself. Your character and profession are the vehicle through which you experience the game, and the balance and feel of it have a significant influence on your moment-to-moment enjoyment of it. This is precisely why we created a dedicated profession balance team after the release of End of Dragons.

Guild Wars 2 is a “live” game, meaning that it will continue to grow and evolve in the years ahead. On the whole, it’s very different today compared to where it started 10 years ago, and those changes didn’t come all at once. Similarly, addressing core issues in profession balance and design is going to be a long-term, incremental effort. We can’t change everything at once, nor should we.

We’ll undoubtedly make mistakes along the way. My commitment to you is that we’ll listen, we’ll own and address our mistakes, and we’ll keep moving the game forward.

Wrapping Up

Tomorrow morning the June 28 release will go live along with the balance changes previewed on Friday. As soon as we can, we’ll follow up with the ‘design notes’ for the update. From there, we’ll be reading your feedback, evaluating the impact of the changes, and determining our next steps. We’ve added a follow up balance update to our release schedule in the coming weeks to address critical issues. Then, in mid-fall, we’ll have our next major professions update. Somewhere in between we’ll share our profession balance philosophy.

Finally, I’d like to thank those of you who have approached this discussion in a civil manner. To those that have chosen extreme toxicity, called for developers to be fired, or sent death threats–you're not welcome in our community.

Josh Davis
Game Director

EDIT: Added some responses  here: 

 

Cute explanations, however what the balance team is doing is just mistakes upon mistakes. The frustration comes for this very fact + giving empty promises. It is never nice to be attacked by the community and I feel sorry for you. But at the end someone needs to play the game, and if it is not delivering then negative feedback and quitting happens. Which is what I did too and I’m not ashamed of it. Of course people sending death threats are messed up but they are probably a minority of people and have severe mental health isssues

[Charley.1489]

Nerf the jade tech and the rifle combo for engi in wvw.   Anet- stop playing favorites

[Voyant.1327]

On 6/28/2022 at 8:12 AM, Flow.2947 said:

Thank you for your post and open communication.

In general. I think the problem in the community is "the Meta" and that you have to play it. you have to play alac you have to play quickness, you have to play a healer.... 

My feedback.

+ I can see the philosophy behind some changes. This patch will make it easier for future balances patches. It also will increase server performance and will decrease visual overloads for new players. 

+ I like that there are more support options viable. 

 

- My disappointment comes more from the announced it is as a "big" balance patch to all classes. while i think it is actually more a minor one. The changes are too randomly spread to be able to actually change something. especially for wvw. I keep on hoping so i don't need to play vail illu or null field, gravity well any longer. 

 

Just to compare 

2015

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2015-06-23

2017

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/December_2017

2022

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Upcoming_changes_and_features/2022-06-28

 

My hopes:

Remove quickness and alac from every player. make them a source only available from Group play Combofields/Finishers! Use combos and buff them! Eg. blast fire fields gives might. second blast gives you might + fury 3rd Blast might, fury + quickness... Leap finishers could be the same. For the individual player who is using the leap and the player which is providing the combo field.

Auras can be more dangerous as well, when you are able to stack intensity.

 

This would be a radical change and would require that ppl have to play more together "nearly" no matter what class you bring. The "golem benchmark" should finally stop setting the Meta 

Love all this and agree that the meta obsession is one of the bigger downsides. Game was a lot more fun just a few weeks ago, I've found PvE content toxicity has gone thru the roof & every LFG is now (lf quick/alac) even in Fractals.

It encourages players to become utterly reliant on supports vs being self sustaining, thus further pushing meta mentality vs. opening up the game to be played in a multitude of ways.

Used to go into a Fractal and it was just "hey you guys ready?" And now its like they're putting together a raid/strike team for something that simply doesn't require it at all. 

This "everybody is a support" mentality did not work at all. It did the exact opposite of diversify classes/specs. Just want games to be fun & players to develop skills not rely on their weaknesses being compensated for via excessive support. 

Edited July 18, 2022 by Voyant.1327

[Voyant.1327]

On 7/15/2022 at 11:10 AM, Kozumi.5816 said:

No it's not, you're forced to not stack due to most mechanics in every MMORPG since the dawn of time. This is the only MMO I've ever played in 20+ years of gaming that makes stacking mandatory 99% of the time.

Its not that its required, its just really hard to find players good enough to run without stacking. But agree this is a weird MMO in those regards, Final Fantasy is like this but its also why a lot of people say group content is FF's lowest point. (Story is some peoples opinion but others rave about it) 

I keep trying to get people into the game but the mindset of the pve community is probably the hardest adjustment for people coming over from other MMOs. They're used to more diversity & skill level play. 

Just gotta start putting it out there "no stack/no support" runs. Turn the thick skin on though bc this community loves to tell you that you're playing the game wrong bc you don't want to do it the same way. I always get "but why don't you just want to, its easier" or some basic insult "thats stupid" from one or two randoms.

For the most part though people who join my runs seem happy to breathe for a change vs feeling suffocated into one way of playing. Most leave feeling it was indeed a lot harder but ultimately more fun & rewarding. 

[Angesombre.4630]

Personally I find GW2 less fun these days, even more since the release of EoD and I even come to advise against it because of the balancing that goes any way. 

Yet I liked the story but the nerfing is all over the place, then I would talk about the revenant, which was better before the last 3 years when they started nerfing it like crazy after increasing it for several years (I'm not saying there weren't some improvements but more nerfing, some things also changed in the game, I'm not defending all of it either, some changes were necessary like the resistance, but the classes were not revised according to that). 

I find it in a worse state than when it first came out with the first HoT expansion. Personal opinion, I liked renegade in PvE. Herald in PvE lacks power. And Vindicator still not debugged it will be soon 1 year that we talk about it... without counting all these defects. The revenant as a whole has almost known that nerf on nerf for 3 years. 

The problems are more numerous than they are solved and there are new ones at almost every balancing update. Just look at the wiki to see these changes.

I'm not a pro just a player who likes this class.
Sorry for my English.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[ThunderX.6591]

I like to remember that with the patch, all classes lost around 4k dps flat, some even more cause extra nerf directed to the class, and i see only post about nerf this elite, nerf that elite instead of seeing posts asking to buff all classes as compensation for the 4k dps loss we had after the rework of banners, spirits, and spotter like skills...........

 

[anbujackson.9564]

6 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

I like to remember that with the patch, all classes lost around 4k dps flat, some even more cause extra nerf directed to the class, and i see only post about nerf this elite, nerf that elite instead of seeing posts asking to buff all classes as compensation for the 4k dps loss we had after the rework of banners, spirits, and spotter like skills...........

 

Because thats the wrong way. Why buff everything to 40k+ again? Powercreep sucks. Rather balance now around 34-38k, depending on power/condi or melee/range.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Not particularly related to this patch but can you stop nerfing stuff for pvp and not wvw? 

Due to that wvw might be the most unbalanced game mode in game. Apply all pvp balance to wvw. 

[Angesombre.4630]

It's often that after PvP the changes happen in WvW, so even if there can be small fights it's often also bigger fights.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/117077-arms-reimagined-a-complete-rework-of-the-arms-traitline/

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Grand Marshal.4098

[ThunderX.6591]

1 hour ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Because thats the wrong way. Why buff everything to 40k+ again? Powercreep sucks. Rather balance now around 34-38k, depending on power/condi or melee/range.

Because EOD end game and some other end game contents was adapted to 40k dps? (the contents people ask to lower the difficulty cause are too difficult at 40k dps damage posted in many forums and topics ring nothing?)

This isn't a powercreep thing, it is about the balance of the game.

If you balance the entire game on 40k dps, you need to rebalance all again to meet the new 35k-36k dps OR set the dps to 40k again, whatever is the easy way out. (Cause you know full well you will never reach the ideally 36k or the 40k dps you get on golem in a real game scenario).

Edited July 19, 2022 by ThunderX.6591

[Ashen.2907]

2 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

Because EOD end game and some other end game contents was adapted to 40k dps?

There is no content in the game balanced around 40k DPS.

[ThunderX.6591]

4 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

Because EOD end game and some other end game contents was adapted to 40k dps? (the contents people ask to lower the difficulty cause are too difficult at 40k dps damage posted in many forums and topics ring nothing?)

 

 

In your quote, you missed the (......) part that explain a bit what i mean about the 40k dps.

We all know that real world dps is lower than 40k, but i consider that as the starting point.

Edited July 19, 2022 by ThunderX.6591

[Ashen.2907]

4 hours ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

In your quote, you missed the (......) part that explain a bit what i mean about the 40k dps.

We all know that real world dps is lower than 40k, but i consider that as the starting point.

I knew what you meant, and understand your concern, but Ive not seen any content where more than about 15k, less than half the golem 40k, was necessary. Nice to have? Sure. Cool to see? Absolutely. Necessary? Nah.

[Sylberin.7961]

Quote

called for developers to be fired

Big news, in the real world, if you consistently do a poor job and your customers are constantly frustrated with you, then you either get your stuff together or eventually get fired (or not renewed, same thing).

It's been years of poor balance and complains by now, that no-one has suffered consequences for it is the reason you keep doing it.

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Sylberin.7961

[Obtena.7952]

38 minutes ago, Sylberin.7961 said:

Big news, in the real world, if you consistently do a poor job and your customers are constantly frustrated with you, then you either get your stuff together or eventually get fired (or not renewed, same thing).

It's been years of poor balance and complains by now, that no-one has suffered consequences for it is the reason you keep doing it.

 

Except you don't get to decide if they are doing a poor job, or any other players. That's what the dev's senior managers get to do. Don't assume they come to the same conclusions you did and don't even assume that the measure of the dev's performance is related to what players think is bad balancing either. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[loregnum.3619]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Except you don't get to decide if they are doing a poor job, or any other players. That's what the dev's senior managers get to do. Don't assume they come to the same conclusions you did and don't even assume that the measure of the dev's performance is related to what players think is bad balancing either. 

Right. So if a lot of people quit playing the game or at least quit spending money because of stuff like this then it just isn't someone doing a poor job and thus they deserve to be replaced if they can't improve. Nope, not at all. The reaction of your customers has zero to do with how well you are or are not doing your job. 

My goodness...

[Obtena.7952]

14 minutes ago, loregnum.3619 said:

Right. So if a lot of people quit playing the game or at least quit spending money because of stuff like this then it just isn't someone doing a poor job and thus they deserve to be replaced if they can't improve. Nope, not at all. The reaction of your customers has zero to do with how well you are or are not doing your job. 

My goodness...

Except Anet doesn't know the statistics for why people leave or stop spending money. Also, players unhappy with the state of balance should stop inventing the rhetoric that people primarily leaving or stop spending money because of class balance.

But for funnzies ... how about you think about the state of the game balance for the last 10 years and see if it correlates to the doomer version of the downfall of the game?

Edited June 13, 2023 by Obtena.7952